[Deck] Team America (Midrange/Control Thread)

[Einherjer]

We could aswell play 1-2 Divining Tops mainboard to enable 3 Counterblanaces + 1-2 Tops coming from the Sideboard - these wreck Burn totally aswell.


EDIT: What outs do we have vs Elspeth? I fold to this friggen card - Maybe we should play Maelstrom pulse?

Greetings

[catmint]

Same for me with elspeth. I killed some having a huge goyf + deed or removal, but she is like blood moon... has to be discarded or countered.

Cards i do not play currently which could deal with her:
- Vendilion Clique
- bitterblossom

[Einherjer]

What does your list look like Catmint? Still the one you posted a few pages ago? I think its really a good move to include 2-3 Vendilion Cliques since theyre really epic. Maybe Ill be playing something like this:

EDIT:Nevermind - this list is bad ^^ Ill stay with my old one

[catmint]

i am currently playing around but if I would go to a tournament now I would play the list I posted, because I had very good results.

i dont get the list you posted. you play no removal/64 cards?

test clique in this configuration and see if you come to different results than me (clunky and not supporting the bad matchups)...If so i would only run her in the SB I think

[sdematt]

A friend of mine and I gauntleted my BUG list against RUG Tempo, Reanimator, Stoneblade, and Maverick. It was pretty sweet. The matchups were all at least even pre-board, and we didn't get to do postboard yet.

-Matt

[Einherjer]

I got a new list I wanted to share, its pretty nice

23 Lands (1 TarPit 1 Sunken Ruins 4 Wastelands)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

3 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Brainstorm

3 Perniciuos Deed
1 Life from the Loam

I added the 3 Spell Pierces to have a better preboard-game versus Combo and Stoneblade while still fucking Maverick with 3 Deeds. The 1 Loam is still for the Canadian MU or just for the opportunity when I want to manascrew an opponent. It plays very smoothly and good. What do you think?

Greetings

[Koby]

I think this deck needs 1-2 Ponder/Preordain, both for consistency, and to pump Goyf. Getting Goyf to become 4/5 is a big concern to be able to win races. I'd also try to fit in another Liliana in the 75, if she's not already in the SB.

[Einherjer]

I play 2 Liliana in my 75 - 1 Main 1 Side

Where would you make space for Ponders in the list I posted up there? Counterspell? Spell Pierce? And to be honest - getting a Sorcery down is not that much of a problem due to following reasons:
We have discard - TS/IoK/Hymn
We have opponents who may play Sorceries
We dont have to drop a 4/5 Goyf T2, and when were in the race to the win its typically later than T2 so Goyf should be 4/5+ then

Greetings

[catmint]

Drew Levin wrote an article talking about colors in legacy. He evaluates every card in the current meta, but IMO has a too narrow minded view. It seems that all SCG writers think their tournament series is the only legacy "reality"...

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...And_Green.html


Anyway he made a lot of comments about BUG.

His evaluation of the black removal spells is pretty bad I think. He does not value Ghastly Demise enough altough giving the explanation why it is excellect right now (kills everything and confidant is not played a lot). He is overvaluing edict and liliana because the SCG series finally realized that they have to play mongoose and not 4 snapcaster in their RUG decks... however, mongoose is a much less potent clock early which can be outclassed with Goyf on the ground...

"Ghastly Demise

Currently mediocre: Ghastly Demise is a fine card. It's nothing to write home about, but it usually does what you want it to do: kill a Delver early, kill a Goyf in the midgame, kill a Knight in the late game. Since Dark Confidant doesn't see a ton of play, it's getting better. Still, I wouldn't play more than one or two in whatever black deck you're sleeving up."

Then he calls Dark Confidant the only reason to play black *sigh* This comments from people who say things like "I love the diversity of the format" is painful. Not that I care about him, but I care about all the people believing him...
The funny thing is that again in his explanation he contradicts his judgement naming very popular cards which all answers confidant easily. His suggestions to play him along 6 discard spells is just embarrasing...

Dark Confidant

Just about the only reason to play black anymore: Dark Confidant is a great card. Unfortunately, a lot of what sees play right now is one-mana ways to trump Bob: Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares, Chain Lightning, Spell Snare, and Darkblast all answer The Great One while gaining value. If he lives, he's great. It's very possible that the answer is to bump up the discard element of a Dark Confidant deck and play something like 4 Inquisition of Kozilek and 2 Thoughtseize, since Bob is a game-winner if you get to untap with him and any sort of reasonable hand.

And then about Hymn...

Hymn to Tourach

Mediocre, could be good: For several months early last year, Hymn to Tourach was the premier card advantage spell. Nowadays, it's pretty rotten. What changed? Innistrad, as usual.

Delver of Secrets made the format even faster. Doing nothing on turn two after doing nothing on turn one is a recipe for disaster. It's very possible that there's a BUG deck out there that wants to cast Hymn to Tourach, but it has to defend its (always sketchy) mana from a ton of Wastelands, it has to play catch-up on the board a lot, and it probably won't get to flashback its Hymn to Tourachs for value that often. People aren't sitting around with a ton of cards in their hands, waiting for something to happen. The game happens on the board now, which doesn't really benefit someone who wants to cast Hymn to Tourach.

If you want to play a board control deck, you have a ton of better card advantage spells. If you want to disrupt an opponent, you can flip your Delver with your Inquisition, cast it, then flash it back a turn later with your Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster Mage has made it harder for card advantage spells to justify themselves. Decks have to be faster to the board and more aggressive, so hand death has gotten a lot worse.

If you're looking to make this work, I would start by playing four to six one-mana removal spells. You can't afford to cast a Hymn to Tourach against Mongoose or Delver, get it Dazed or Spell Pierced or Spell Snared, and then get Wastelanded. Your deck isn't going to survive sequences like that. If you keep the opposition off of the board early, though, Hymn to Tourach gets a lot more value.

First: He is evaluating Hymn onlyversus Delver decks saying that the card is bad, because these decks are so fast and the action is on the board and people are not sitting around with their cards in hand. RUG Delver ALWAYS has a ton of cards in hand and of course if they start with a delver you should probably play removal first...Btw. The best removal spell in this situation is of course ghastly demise... RUG tempo often sits around doing nothing wanting to stifle or play a mongoose (which is almost like doing nothing in the first 4-5 turns)

However he correcly outlines how to use Hymn versus RUG (keep the board clear first) and play patient (playing land-go if they don't apply pressure) so you dont run into stifle/wasteland/counter.

More reference conderning the RUG Tempo matchup:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...&highlight=RUG

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ol-style/page2

My personal comments to Hymn. Hymn and Deed are the reasons I don't play UW control. I get a lot of value from Snapcaster + Hymn regulary...

From the current DTB Hymn is great against RUG Tempo, UW Control, Storm and decent against the rest except for dredge. Against Burn decks which got a lot of attention lately Hymn reads usually "prevent 6+ damage".

[wcm8]

I agree with the above sentiment, his dismissal of several cards is confusing/short-sighted. For example, Thoughtseize is better than IoK in lots of decks precisely because it hits any card. He said that the 'only' cards with cmc of 4 or more that gets played in Legacy are Jace, Elspeth, and FoW. Obviously he wasn't considering Batterskull, Ad Nauseam, Hive Mind, Emrakul/Progenitus, etc.. Now obviously some of these are more niche than others, but Batterskull and Jace alone should be enough to justify seize over iok in plenty of decks.

Dark Confidant is good, but he is hardly the only reason to splash black. In plenty of matchups he is mediocre at best.

Whatever, just another useless SCG article.

[sdematt]

I'm just wondering people's thoughts on the threat debate. I know most/some people are running Tarmogoyf, but aren't y'all worried about removal?

Personally, for me, I'm running the deck in a much more controlling fashion. I want threats that'll either stay onboard, or can be recurred for extra advantage.

I'm also just putting it out there that Worm Harvest is VERY good. I'm winning most of my games by grinding out the early game with infinite removal, then winning off the back of Jace, Thrun, or Worm Harvest.

We're trying an Intuition build at the moment (similar to Hanni's list from infinite ago) and it's been pretty stellar.

-Matt

[catmint]

I played the intuition build for a couple of games (not nearly enough to play it well/to its full potential), but I felt if I do not play discard I can just play UW Stoneblade...I also felt that not having pointed discard I rely too much on counterspells to survive the early/mid game in a fashion that I can turn it around...

concerning "worrying about removal".
I run the deck also in a very controlling fashion which means early goyfs are an exception (I play only 3 maindeck and in many matchups go to 2 postboard). So the gameplan is to land a jace (blanking a lot of removal spells) or a goyf when the opponent does not have removal in hand relying on top decks.

[Einherjer]

Id just like to hear some opinions about this list I posted a little above
23 Lands (1 TarPit 1 Sunken Ruins 4 Wastelands)

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster Mage

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil

4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell

3 Thoughtseize
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat

4 Brainstorm

3 Perniciuos Deed
1 Life from the Loam

Maybe Ill just describe a lil more in order to get more feedback.
This list is designed to stand its ground preboard. None of the other strategies (ok maybe Storm) is really easy - but there isnt a signel one thats really negative ( I dont count Dredge and Burn - as theyre death for us by nature). Deeds should keep all Aggro+Maverick under Control, whereas the Loam is here to give us a lil edge over Canadian. Considering the removal I might cut the GftT in order to add an edict. The Countersuite is built to be useful against every single deck and is doing fine.

What do you think guys?

[JimmyC27]

Is that 1 Counterspell ever awkward? Also, are the Spell Pierces ever just worthless in some match ups?

I find the Dredge and Burn matches to not be bad. Dredge seems pretty good post-board with Surgical Extraction + Snapcaster -- have you tried mulling for this? BUT, I have definitely had noticeable trouble against Manaless Dredge decks.

I've been using Kitchen Finks against Zoo/Burn decks (things that don't operate on Wasteland)... and that has tested pretty well. Before that even, the proper use of Hymn, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, and FOW coupled with some sort of clock was getting me there.

[sdematt]

I've been liking this list:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Cabal Pit
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
3 Wasteland

2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Shriekmaw

3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
3 Intuition

3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Worm Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
1 Noxious Revival --> the tits

3 Ghastly Demise
2 Damnation
3 Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:

2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Life from the Loam
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
3 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Gigapede

Thoughts?

-Matt

[Einherjer]

I added Spell Pierces to fight Elspeth while I was only testing vs Maverick but oviously they are more than that and helpful in alot of games. I couldnt imagine winning a Reanimator G1 without Pierces. So I wouldnt cut them. The 1 Counterspel is just sweet in the later game - I might up it to 2 Counterspells as an additional card - because i got flooded yesterday 5/10 games - which is very annoying.
Pierces are not really bad in any MU - vs Zoo you can counter a PtE which targets your Goofie or things like that. But it has really MU where it shines: combo, blue decks

Greetings

[Seems Good]

I sleeved up this build for the first time tonight and I had a great time playing it. Here are some thoughts on specific cards and card types:

Spot removal - I started off testing Dismember and Go for the Throat at 2 of each. GFFT was excellent; Dismember was great at CMC:1, especially when flashed back with Snap, but the -4 life really seemed to hurt, and was even prohibitive in close matches once life totals dwindled down close to 0. I think the deck really wants a 1 drop kill spell at 2-3 slots...I haven't tested Ghastly Demise yet but it seems like it could be a great fit. I'm thinking something like 3 Ghastly, 3 GFFT? Testing against 3 different aggro control/tempo style decks, the deck definitely wanted to keep drawing and using spot removal.

Sweepers - Started with two Pernicious Deed. I love this card. However, not once was I in a situation where it seemed extremely useful. May have been due to the fact that it wasn't optimal for my matchups, or I may not have been making right play choices. I feel like this card definitely deserved MD slots though. Also, seeing lists here with Damnation makes me want to test it. How has it been for everyone?

Counterspells - Force of Will at 4 of seemed really solid. With that being said, I really like Spell Pierce at 2 of. I also tested Spell Snare at 2 of, which I wasn't as impressed with. It was like I was always tapped out when they were playing two drops and I had it in hand. Again could be play error. Interested to hear other peoples opinions on counter suites.

Creatures - Tested 4 Tarmogoyf and 4 Snapcaster Mage. Both seemed right at 4 of. I may even want to test 2-3 Vendilion Clique as well. The only prohibiting factor IMO is the 1UU cost. Anyone test this guy extensively?

Land - As I'm a big fan, I tested 3 Mishra's Factory in the MD and I have to say I was extremely impressed with this guy. It seemed like most games came down to this guy sticking around after removal/trades/sweepers etc and getting in for the win. Also added resiliency with a 1of Life from the Loam really helped. That card is also a boss. There were games where I just waste-locked my opponent into oblivion. Other games it was just a card advantage machine in general between factories, fetches and wastes. What is the thought on this vs. Crucible of Worlds?

Any thoughts, experiences, and opinions would be greatly appreciated.

[sdematt]

Ghastly is great since most of the time your grave is choke-full pretty quick.

Deed is great, but maybe you're just running into matchups where it's not the greatest.

Damnation has saved my butt more times than you can count. Snapcaster-->Damnation is also the tits.

-Matt

[catmint]

How can you support mishra and wasteland with loam?
Do you run a typical build with hymn?

I run 24 lands with 4 non color producing +1 semi non color: Sunken Ruins (most of the time a fixer and very rarely a liability). For the 4 non color producing I think wasteland is the best in terms of power level and utility with Loam.

[flounce]

Hi All,

First time poster, Long time fan.

My question is; Is it worth playing a basic samp over the sunken ruins? As it still allows for T1 IoK, T2 Hymn, T3 Snap Flash IoK. It also allows us to play a basic land. Plus is seems we dont need our Green and Blue mana early. Apart from Spell Snare.