[Deck] The Rock

[comandantenorton83]

Well, I'm just exploring new possibilities with GSZ. I like to try out different things; some work great and some are trash. For instance, so far, I'm very happy using 3 bitterblossom + 2 jitte in this deck. On the other hand, I tried out 1-off scute mob with no success.

What I don't understand is people who laughts at other people without helping with new ideas at all.

Let's keep a constructive debate, as it has been son far.

[serendib]

me and my friend are running this list (he is the pilot in turnaments because he playes it pefectly, while I play UWB)

4 wasteland
7 fetch
3 bayou
3 scrubland
2 horizon canopy
1 swamp
1 forest
1 karakas
1 maze of ith

3 mox diamond

4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquairy
3 scavening ooze
2 qasali pridemage
1 elspeth, knight errant

4 swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
3 vindicate

3 top

4 seize
4 tourach

side:
1 faerie macabre
1 tormod's crypt
1 extirpate
1 cage
2 diabolic edict
2 timely reinforcements
2 kitchen finks
2 duress
1 tidehollow sculler
2 pernicious deed

we are very happy about 3 ooze , elspeth and the remouvals package (with mox he often plays e.e. also @ 4)

last turnament he (he is the pilot) won
4 games won (ugr thresh, ugr thresh, goblins, show and tell)
2 draw (team portugal, ?)
1 lost (pox)

we decided to run this list because he has a control style of playing rock, so he does not need goyf, actually he never plays goyf even if we allways change build (for example http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...9&iddeck=50191)

what we think is the problem of the deck is facing opponents' planeswalkers because we never loose via combat phase. in fact elspeth is performing extremely well but we can't run 2 beacuse he is mana heavy.

we are thinking to play nimble moongoose maindeck as we have already done in a turnament he made 5-1
has anyone tested it ?

PS:
the reason of engineered explosives maindeck are:
- the rock easyly lose to delver + fow on stp. so we have 6 fast unswer to delver of secrets
- mother of the runes is very annoying
- potential 5 planeswalker hate are better than just 4 vindicate
- fast aggro as zoo

[sdematt]

I've never had much of a problem losing to Delver. It means I have to save STP's for Delver and leave my Deathmarks for Goyfs, but I'm okay with that. Coupled with 3 Vindicate and Knight of the Reliquary, you're usually okay. It's the Burn that usually gets you.

I had been thinking about Nimble Mongoose, to be honest, for a long time. If you were playing GSZ as well, it'd be nice to pay 2 and get a shroud 3/3. But, I fear he suffers a bit of a problem: He's only a 3/3, and with so many Knights and Goyfs still out there, a 3/3 isn't much. I fear he would die too easily.

I agree Explosives can be great, and Mox Diamond only makes it better for you (expect when you use EE on 0 against Delver). Right now, I'm playing Deed instead so I can take out the board (since I'd rather empty the board than take out a specific mana cost, especially against Maverick).

-Matt

[ZeinVoncy]

I had been thinking about Nimble Mongoose, to be honest, for a long time. If you were playing GSZ as well, it'd be nice to pay 2 and get a shroud 3/3. But, I fear he suffers a bit of a problem: He's only a 3/3, and with so many Knights and Goyfs still out there, a 3/3 isn't much. I fear he would die too easily.

-Matt

I have tried to include him before, but your fear is valid. Anytime you want to pop a deed, he's usually one to be swept away as well. Not to mention that are quite a few red sweepers for 3 >.
As to Rafiq, well I've always loved the idea of using him, but what I find with him is that unless there's a trampler involved, he's not quite that good. I'd be open to testing him, he's one of my favorite Legends.

[serendib]

I've never had much of a problem losing to Delver. It means I have to save STP's for Delver and leave my Deathmarks for Goyfs, but I'm okay with that. Coupled with 3 Vindicate and Knight of the Reliquary, you're usually okay. It's the Burn that usually gets you.

burn problem:
- burn.deck _ run 4 lifegain cards in your side (2 timely reinforcements 2 finxs)
- burn part of URG _ ugr should not take us low in life so that he can kill us with 2/3 bolts.

opponents' goyf and knights:
- ooze is your card maindeck. (at least 2 copies even if you run gsz)
it hits nowadays metagame (reanimator, snapcaster, punishing fire, goyf, knight, mongooses, loam, past in flames...)
If you think, there are very few decks which do not interact with their graves (or their graves make their creatures bigger)

remouval package:
I can't find a deck vs which I would prefere deathmark over engineered explosives:
- vs UGR
- vs UW blade
- vs Maverik
- vs black based decks
- vs combo decks (e.g. empty the warrens)
- vs dreadge
- liliana
- jace and elspeth if you run mox diamond or bird of paradies

engineered explosives IS NOT in substitution of pernicious deed
they are just the best remouval spell with STP and vindicate.

My big question are:

- mox diamond yes / not _ what's best right now ?
to my view, If I run them I don't need more than 4 cc1 discard effect because I have 10 starters on turn 1: 4 seize 3 top 3 mox diamond
to my view, If I don't run mox, I need more 6 cc1 discard effects any maybe tourach leaves the deck.

- what's best to face opponents's jace ? (and this question is related above)

- stonforge mystic ?

- is mongoose good without mox ?

PS:
we have run with success this list in december but we need e.e. and ooze right now.
23 lands + 3 mox
3 top + 1 loam
4 bob + 4 knight + 4 goyf + 3 mongoose
4 seize + 4 tourach
4 stp + 3 vindicate

[novatinhu]

Currently my list is as follows:


// Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith

// Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the Loam
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Maelstrom Pulse

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 1 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Go for the Throat
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Kitchen Finks
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction


I dont have any Ooze in the 75's becouse i really dont find a place to put it... =[

[sdematt]

I can't find a deck vs which I would prefere deathmark over engineered explosives:
- vs UGR
- vs UW blade
- vs Maverik
- vs black based decks
- vs combo decks (e.g. empty the warrens)
- vs dreadge
- liliana
- jace and elspeth if you run mox diamond or bird of paradies

I disagree. If you have any empty board, EE is better every time, except for the mana cost and the possibility of Stifle. EE is bad when you've got stuff on board and need to clear away opposing creatures of the same converted mana cost. If you have a Knight and they have a Knight, nice job with Engineered Explosives. Deathmark on the other hand leaves you with a Knight.

Vs. RUG: It hits Tarmogoyf. I'll agree EE is better here, since they won't have Knights.
Vs. Blade: EE will kill a Jace in the long game, and can kill their equipment. It's better here, unless you need to kill the SFM after they've tutored but will it's still inactive.
Vs. Maverick: EE is good for clearing out the 1 CMC guys, but bad at killing Knight. If you have board presence here, EE is much rougher on you. Deathmark kills everything, and it's offcolour in case Mother of Runes.
Vs. Black-based decks: What black based decks? The Gate? I guess EE is better, but I board out Deathmark for Deed. Whoops.
Vs. Combo: Yeah, I'll say EE is better here, but who uses Empty the Warrens? Most combo players I know will play around EE/Deed/Pulse if you're in BWG.
Vs. Dredge: Obviously EE is better, it's a combo deck.

Your point is valid, don't get me wrong. I'll agree EE is a better piece of removal since it does wipe the board of a certain CMC. But, if you're trying to do creature removal efficiently, Deathmark in the meta of Maverick and Stoneblade, is pretty good. EE is much worse when you have board presence, believe me. I could say the same thing about Deed, so don't get me wrong.

But, have you tried Deathmark? Don't knock it until you try it. Ideally I'd love to run 4 Plow/2 Deathmark/2 EE, but hey, we can't

mox diamond yes / not _ what's best right now ?

Most of the winning lists I've seen have dropped it. Gaining 3 slots worth of value can be worth it. It's better when you can get rid of it for value, like with Liliana. Again, most of the lists: No Mox. I haven't run Mox for ages, and it's fine. I still think without Loam and at 23 lands, 3 Mox can be tight on your manabase.

what's best to face opponents's jace?

Thrun, Elspeth, Vindicate, Thoughtseize/Duress. Right now I'm running 4 Thoughtseize, 2 Inquisition, 1 Duress. 1 Thrun and 1 Elspeth comes out of the board, and I keep 3 Vindicates in. I don't say it's easy to deal with, but there's not certain cards, just your overall strategy.

stoneforge mystic ?

People are still doing well with this card, even in non-Mox, non-blue based decks. Again, I don't think it's worth typing our manabase up for several turns especially if it gets killed. Maverick can run it due to it's awesome manabase, and the same with Stoneblade. Maverick, even if SFM dies, can recover very easily and drop the equipment. Stoneblade can counter removal against it. We really can't do either.

is mongoose good without mox?

I think the real question is, is Mongoose good enough, period? If you're running EE to sweep Delvers and Mongeese, yours are going to go as well. Plus, we don't put as much stuff in the grave as RUG does, so they might have 3/3 while we still have 1/1.

23 lands + 3 mox
3 top + 1 loam
4 bob + 4 knight + 4 goyf + 3 mongoose
4 seize + 4 tourach
4 stp + 3 vindicate

I agree with most of that to a tee. You should try 1 Phyrexian Arena/Sylvan Library instead of 1 Top. It's really good. It frees up your manabase, and you can dig without using mana.

I do like Loam a lot. Even without Mox, it's great.

Not sure if Hymn is good enough right now. The format has sped up, and Spell Snare is rampant. I'd rather have more 1-CMC discard, and help you target the Jaces and Eslpeths and equipment we hate to see instead of taking a chance with Hymn.

I've upped my land count to 24 without Moxen, but I'm also running the 1-of Arbor with GSZ. So far, so good. My list is essentially yours except +1 land, Moxen become GSZ, Hymns become 1-CMC discard, Mongeese becomes Pridemage Birds Ooze, 1 Goyf and 1 Hymn becomes more 1-CMC removal.

Basically, we're all on the same basic track, I'm just running different creatures and more removal, but less acceleration, but I have more access/choice of these creatures by having GSZ, which means I have 7 Knights, 6 Goyf, 4 Qasali, 4 Birds, etc. (kind of).


But, I'd love to move a Loam into my main, just to bring back Wastelands, fetches, Karaki, etc. Might have to cut Arena for it.

----

What do you think?

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Two rock/junk lists made the top 16 of Memphis!! One was top 4 and the other Was top 12!

The top four deck was essentially a black maverick list with bobs and thoughtseize while the other was more classic rock, straight green black with deeds and lilianas.

[comandantenorton83]

During the next week I have a bit free time for testing. I'd like to try some cards that are doing well in other decks, although may not be good in The Rock, just to see what happens. I'll test:
- Liliana of the Veil
- 1-off terravore
- 3-off chrome mox

Have any of you tested these cards recently?

[AggroSteve]

liliana is really good, about terravore and chrome mox i cannot say a thing as i did not test them, but chrome mox seems a bit odd, mox diamonds are way better here

[ZeinVoncy]

liliana is really good, about terravore and chrome mox i cannot say a thing as i did not test them, but chrome mox seems a bit odd, mox diamonds are way better here

I pretty much agree.

Liliana seems all around awesome for almost any controlish deck running black.

Terravore is decent at best. Goes hand in hand with KotR, tho it's better off in other decks like New Horizons and other more land ld based decks.

Chrome is just all around bad unless you're playing combo. Mox Diamonds are our way to go so we can fully utilize the lands we're throwing into the bin. We cannot take advantage of having Chrome unless it's a T1 Dark Confidant.

[sdematt]

I've seen a bunch of the Italian lists running Liliana and 2 Loams (but no Moxen). This is obviously so you can just keep dumping land and get around those pesky Mongeese/control the board. I like it a lot, I'm just not cutting stuff for it yet.

I'm trying my flex slot as the Arena/Loam spot, but I think I'll eventually end up putting it as Loam.

-Matt

[AggroSteve]

i have allready tested liliana together with loam, but i used 2 lilianas and only a singleton loam in a MOX-build
having 1st turn hymn, 2nd turn liliana wrecks other decks, and with confidant or loam as an addition her first ability becomes so assymetrical, and like this i even got to use her ultimate a few times which might not seem that much of a deal but it cripples the opponent enough to finish him easily

using liliana + more than 1 loam in a non-mox build seems a bit odd to me, but it may be a way to deal with RUG-tempo mongeese and mana-denial.
in my opinion this configuration is probably a choice for a specific meta.

[sdematt]

Definitely could be. I've been playing Liliana in BUg for a while and there's fewer things more satisfying then dropping it Turn 3 and having them muck a creature.

Interesting, Damionblackgear hasn't posted recently. You alive?

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Of course I'm alive. It just sucks using my phone to type and, I've been away from my computer for a while.

Since you want to know though, lili's amazing. She's not a win the game planeswalker in the sense that the others are (i.e. doesn't have a built in ability that wins the game). Lili is a support planes walker. If you need extra discard, she's that (if you're discarding too, you knew she was coming, plan ahead). If you need creature kill, she's an x+1 edict (x gains value over time). It's worth the time testing her out, if you have it. Just test vs more than one deck as her role may change. Also, if you ever ultimate her, you're probably ahead.

Terravore can fill a similar role as Knight but, Knight doesn't have trample. It's a fine idea vs other Knight decks, as they have to deal with it or have their knights run over, but beware of anyone who is blocks with single knight. If you don't you're about to get blown out by Bog. Overall, I think it's overkill and I am more interested in Garruk Relentless than Vore.

I don't remember what the third thing was so, I won't comment on that. I've rechecked my typing (readability only) since editing is next to impossible on a phone.

[comandantenorton83]

Thanks to all for such a fast answer.

I'll test just Liliana and 1-off terravore, and maybe try to get 1 or 2 Garruk to see what happens :-)

[damionblackgear]

Since I'm on a computer now, I would like to say that It's probably a good idea to switch Thoughtseizes for Inquisitions. Yes, I'm aware you can't grab so many different Good cards but, Burn has done well for 3 separate SCG's and burn spells are steadily becoming more popular (the current sleigh list being the most threatening in the current meta as it's almost all burn). The two life isn't much but, free shocks are how Conley lost the match (Game3).

Honest fact: Even though most people don't like the deck, Burn is well placed in the current meta (especially with the amount of unseasoned players) because people do not wish to acknowledge the deck. My honest opinion, "Everybody hates burn. It's the only match-up none of us can say for sure we're going to win."

This archetype does not have a great matchup vs decks with reach. We depend on being able to control what we can see then what we can imagine. So, the more reach a deck has, the worse we become against them. Counting on discard isn't the answer either as you're spending your time doing that instead of winning. Discard can not beat a topdeck.

-----

To elaborate on Garruk Relentless from my previous statement - Realize, I'm still running both Zenith and Mystic so I'm not playing the 'standard' version and my findings may not be the same as your own.

The biggest issue people have been having against U/W control (AKA Stoneblade) is that they have access to too many removal spells. Most people are having issues sticking a threat. Games usually take forever and us not having the ability to Brainstom with our planeswalkers makes our card selection infinitely worse than theirs.

Garruk accomplishes a stream of bodies in this instance (either Green and Black). That means that, if you take out the Feast and Famine, you've got an unlimited supply of bodies to block or swing with. The only creatures that can effectively block it are Germ (batterskull) and Factory (requires multiple) and those are only when Garruk hasn't flipped.

Additionally, Garruk doubles as removal. That means that you can kill any x/3 creature and possibly keep garruk for future use. Killing Bob, Snapcaster, Mystic, Magus(!)... isn't that bad when you can do it at the cost of less than a card.

Once flipped, the abilities may look worse but, think about it this way, You can:

Make a wall of creatures that they can't swing past without evasion (unless they want to lose creatures).
Create a stream of creatures that can't be blocked profitably.
Tutor (essentially for free) and creature remaining in your deck. Thus smoothing out draws for other spells you may want.
Create threats using other creatures you may or may not have been able to use previously (bird on turn 6 isn't as helpful as Turn 1).

The other reason I promote Garruk is Lili. She's amazing against us too since she's got the ability to kill our creatures. Yes, we can kill her (even by preemptively playing her) but what happens when she comes down and you're not prepared? Garruk's stream of tokens make it impossible for her to take over in the way she normally does.

[sdematt]

Garruk doesn't seem bad at all. I'd run him as a 1-of in the board (at least in my build) against decks like Blade, where sticking Planeswalkers (basically a permanent they can't easily remove) is important. Elspeth is also key here.

Even though we have a ton of removal, I don't think we should take it out from the mainboard. I think the same assumption is to bring some out when playing Stoneblade (like, I'll probably bring out Deathmark against Stoneblade in Games 2 and 3) for stuff like Thrun, Planeswalkers, etc.)

RE: Thoughtseize, agreed. I'm running 4 Seize, 2 IoK and 1 Duress, but I'll switch to 4 IoK, 1 Duress, 2 Thoughtseize. I think Thoughtseize is still fine, since grabbing Fireblast is still what you want to do, even if it costs 2 life. I just think Jeff was playing too little hand-disruption. His equipment helped, but still. Either all, good job Jeff! Represent!

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I agree that he played well but, you should be grabbing the Jitte instead of the Batterskull. Reason? Jitte makes them have to point burn at any creature you play. Even with acceleration, they can burn you out before you get the Skull down. The lifegain and the turn they become available to start swinging are the same so that doesn't matter.

[sdematt]

I agree 100%. When I saw him grab Batterskull, I was a bit, "wait, what?"

-Matt