@Parcher: How has memory's journey been working for you? Does it save the day much outside of the Reanimator match?
Do you prefer it over coffin purge?
I've never run Coffin Purge. I don't see an advantage on the small chance of getting one in my opener, and keeping it there to get a possible second use out of it. Nor is there any advantage in actually removing your own spell. Plus, you get the bonus of returning wanted cards such as Narcomoeba. Against Extraction, unless you go up to four Purge to guarantee one when you begin dredging, Journey is better. Especially since you rarely have mana open when you begin dredging. Having only two won't stop the first effect usually, but it's rarely the first one that kills you.
Against other GY decks, Journey is better as well. Against Reanimator, it not only forces another area they have to work against(the stack), it does so in conjunction with Chain to make things more difficult. They now have to first worry about you combo-ing, then about Therapy, and now these two cards. The only way it is better than Purge in that case is when they have multiple targets for a renimate spell though.
Against Dredge, it's obviously far superior to Purge. Not only in removing more cards, but in the common case where you start to go off, but can't kill them. You're guaranteed to lose your Bridges on their turn. So if possible, you use it to stop them from going off. If not, you save your Bridges.
It's not an end-all against anything, And as I mentioned, if I had more slots I would run something else. But if you plan for it correctly you get a lot of utility.
~ Team Unicorn MottoOriginally Posted by MacGruber
Plus, with Memory's Journey you get to win random games against Painter...
A random Blightsteel Colossus in the board does the same job. =P
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
We would likely benefit more by using Memory's Journey over Blightsteel Colossus, though, as it has the versatility to address other match-ups even as a singleton (e.g. Surgical Extraction.dec, Reanimator, Dredge even).
Cheers,
jares
Hi All,
I was looking at our other options in addressing the combo match-up, which has led me to remember that Unmask was once in the generic list for Dredge. I've been trying to revisit that angle, but so far I haven't had enough time to thoroughly test the card. Listed below are some considerations:
- Even with LED, it's generally been an uphill battle for us to outrace combo decks (e.g. Storm.dec), which has led me to think that, instead of fighting them in the field where they're at their best (speed), it might be wiser to instead slow them down and bring them to a field where we would have a clear advantage (given that disruption via Cabal Therapy has always been part of our bread-and-butter plays).
- Unmask might not be the best option, but surely cards that could help support Cabal Therapy would maneuver the idea towards this direction.
- As of the moment, the following cards have been considered (a lot of other options may not have been considered yet; do let me know if anything else might be worth mentioning):
Do let me know if you would have any ideas that would help support/reject this train of thought.
Kind Regards,
jares
I'm not a fan of thoughtseize or duress, but would definately consider unmask since you can use it turn 0 and gitaxian probe since it is never a dead card and will make our therapies 100% more effective
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
I'm a fan of Unmask, but the real answer is probably just getting better at using Cabal Therapy.
Dedicated discard for combo seems to make you weaker in the mirror aka less consistent.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
I think that what you really meant by "turn 0" is "turn 1". Having said that, it's worth noting that the only real answer that one can have for a Storm Turn-1 kill (on the play) would be a Mindbreak Trap, which isn't really something that sounds very versatile as an answer to combo decks in general.
I would tend to agree with you on Unmask and Gitaxian Probe, given that the Probe also doubles as an enabler. I considered the other alternatives, though, because the Probe does not net you a card, which probably makes Unmask the best option among the ones that have already been noted - the only drawback being that all the other non-Unmask black cards in the deck are also needed, but that might really be a necessary setback.
Kind Regards,
jares
I don't think Storm is an issue at all against LED-based Dredge. When you're exploding into multiple Therapies and putting a serious clock on the board, there's little they can do to stabilize. You just have to mulligan aggressively.
I agree! I find that getting better at aiming Cabal Therapy is definitely something that is undervalued because the skill is very difficult to quantify, not to mention the difficulty of actually putting it into practice.
I prefer to define consistency based on the math involved, and, based on my findings so far, I'm currently unsure of whether or not the LED decks going around are numerically consistent based on the probabilities involved. Having said that, I'm thinking that the Leyline of the Void/Faerie Macabre/otherGraveyardHate slots would be the cards that we could use to address the mirror.
Kind Regards,
jares
Don't forget Elesh Norn for the mirrors.
I guess that, if an aggressive mulligan is the key, then our chances are just as good as theirs because they're doing the same thing every game anyway (keep in mind, though, that having to mulligan as part of a game plan is a symptom of a certain degree of inconsistency). This may mean that FKZ (and of course, Dread Return) would be required, though, which might become an issue given that some successful builds have shaved-off DR entirely - not running FKZ essentially gives Storm a full turn to "steal" the win.
Based on what has already been stated, does this mean that LEDless variants will be better-off in incorporating the disruption game plan (against combo) rather than insist on the FKZ/DR package?
Kind Regards,
jares
In your honest opinion's, what stands a better chance at Indianapolis, LED/Looting Dredge or TES? I've been play testing/practicing with Dredge for the last 2 months but I'm starting to think TES will fair better. Graveyard based decks are back on the radar and TES fairs better against Delver, which is currently the deck to beat. Try to be unbiased.
-Matthew
I don't know why you think TES fairs better than Dredge against Delver, TES has 3 uphill games vs Dredge's 1 downhill game and 2 uphill games if and only if Delver is prepared for graveyard based decks. I'm not certain I'd play either of them right now, but justifying playing TES over Dredge because of Delver is a bit thin IMO.
@Jares
If you want Storm specific hate, the best card you can SB is Chalice of the Void. Unmask is too resources intensive and Mindbreak Trap lets them set up and go off with a perfect hand unless they walk into it.
I'm with Final Fortune on this one, as I also feel that Dredge is the much more resilient archetype over TES (even amidst all the hate). I also agree that the meta is a bit funky right now (Forgemaster Combo won the SCG Legacy Open last 26th), but fortunately, Dredge is still represented in the Top 16.
I'm thinking that Mindbreak Trap might be the only card that will allow us to address Storm during our Turn 0 (their Turn 1). Chalice of the Void seems like a good choice for something that can be played on our first turn though.
Kind Regards,
jares
Went 5-1 in a tourney and made the 2nd out of 34.
I played the following list:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Memory's Journey
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Tarnished Citadel
First of all, i did a bad decision to play Memory's Journey > Coffin Purge/Purify the Grave. I never used it and i never had the chance to play it from my hand. In addition it gets hit by Spell Snare.
Round 1) NicFit ( yeah...)
Game 1) hand disruption + zombie army for the win. He topdecked an Eternal Witness and killed my zombies with maelstrom pulse but i had 4 ichorid in my grave.
Game 2) He had turn 2 Ooze and won due to Veteran Explorer into Phyrexian Tower.
Game 3) This was easy. I killed him Turn 2 because i could play Land->LED->LED->Faithless Looting->Found 2 looting for flashback. Played multiple therapies and hit extirpate :)
Round 2) Can. *****
Game 1) Zombie army wins because he had nothing.
Game 2) He has 1 land in play and doesn't found a second. He played again multiple therapies and won with tokens.
Round 3) Spiral Tide
Game 1) He was faster, lost.
Game 2) I was faster.
Game 3) I was faster.
I think it should be clear against Spiral Tide.
Round 4) Grinding Station ( Jona )
Game 1) I breakthroughed with my LED and showed him 3 moeba + 4 bridges + 3 therapies in my grave, he lost.
Game 2) I boarded Leyline of the Void. He killed me turn two and didn't see my Leylines.
Game 3) Mulligan to 6 with: LED,Land,Leyline,Faithless Looting,GGT. I won with multiple therapies.
Round 5) Reanimator
Game 1) Blazing Archon wins.
Game 2) Blazing Archon + Elesh Norn wins.
Round 6) RUG CBTop?
Round 1) Again, zombie army wins against a single flipped delver.
Round 2) Lost against double cage.
Round 3) He played cage without counter backup and i destroyed his cage. he was at 2 life and had a delver in play. i had 9 zombies,ichorid,moeba. he said, the only thing which could help me would be firespout. All the people surrounding us, looking at the top card. But it was a crypt. Sorry DerFern. 1 Breakthrough in main after boarding out 3. :D
Won 2 Fetchies into LED.
Now i have my playset :D
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
Grand Prixs usually have a bigger range of decks than your typical SCG tourney right?
With that in mind I would probably play TES(assuming you are an outstanding pilot) because it is better against random decks.
The three toughest matchups for TES right now(that see a lot of play) are RUG delver, stoneblade, and Reanimator. If you have a lot of practice and success against those three decks than I would most definitely play TES.
I think dredge has the edge on stoneblade and RUG delver decks which tend to be at a SCG tourney in full force. So I would most probably pick dredge over TES at a SCG tourney.
@Kiwi
I played really similar lists, did you ever miss 1xDread Return and did you always SB out Lion's Eye Diamond and Cephalid Coliseum for ??? and Tarnished Citadels? My biggest complaint is Cephalid Coliseum, because without Lion's Eye Diamond it loses signficiant value so you either have to SB them out for other lands or you have to SB in other lands in addition to them.
@ Final Fortune
I NEVER missed DR. There were still enough power without them. As i played against Reanimator i wasto really happy, that i didn't play any DR-targets. Ok, i lost, but i felt fine to see his face, that he realized i didn't play DR-targets.
I boarded out the LEDs in the following MatchUps:
Canadian
Reanimator
RUG
The most outboarded card was Breakthrough. I find, it's ok to have them G1 but you don't need them in G2/3. I never boarded out the Cephalid Coliseum. They are really nice to have especially without LED (!) because i don't have the extra speed without LED. Sure, they are better WITH LED, but i wouldn't board them out. Tarnished Citadel was nice to have after boarding Nature's claim and Memory's Journey.
But i should say i never faced any Wastelands.
I hope i could help
K1w1
My colors are... ZONK!
You haven't any colors. You play Dredge.
You love games, which are unfair. You hate Reanimator & NicFit.
At good days, you destroy everything. At bad days,
you draw Narcomoebas. But the most important thing:
Everybody hates you!
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