[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[hyperchord24]

^Would this be the same question as "is natural order and progenitus worth running in this deck"?

I think there are more answers to Emrakul than there are to Progenitus in the format. Plus Pattern may be too slow.

[Malakai]

If we use the following requirements for 4-5 drops, we generate an interesting list.

Requirements:

• The card generates incremental advantage if unanswered
• or
• The card wins the game if we untap.

List (creatures only):
Olivia Voldaren
Bloodline Keeper
Master of the Wild Hunt
Huntsmaster of the Fells
Phyrexian Obliterator
Anowon, the Ruin Sage
Havengul Lich

Of these, the ones I actually like are:
Huntsmaster of the Fells (sort of)
Olivia Voldaren
Master of the Wild Hunt
Anowon, the Ruin Sage

Master and Huntsmaster both play rather poorly with Deed.

I haven't bothered to look at non-creature options. Garruk Relentless is clearly insane, but I wonder if there are others.

[Malakai]

Why would you want to do a bunch of durdling around to put an Emrakul in play when you could just hardcast a card that wins almost as well? The historical problem decks like these have had is that they spend too much time being cute instead of just playing cards that win the game.

I mean, shit, I'm pretty sure that at least one of those cards that I'm proposing above is just as big an offender.

I want my opponent to cast Vendilion Clique, look at my hand, look at his hand, then concede the game.

[TheArchitect]

If we use the following requirements for 4-5 drops, we generate an interesting list.

Requirements:

• The card generates incremental advantage if unanswered
• or
• The card wins the game if we untap.

While none of the creatures are you listed are bad choices, I think we need a different requirements:
1 - The card generates IMMEDIATE card advantage AND must be dealt with or will win the game in a few turns

- OR -

2 - The card Generates incremental card advantage AND is hard to remove.


A card meeting ether set of requirements will insure 2 things: inevitable CA and a win con if they can't remove it.


Cards that meet the first requirements:
- Huntsmaster
- Primeval titan + 1-2 treetop villages (best option imo)
- Grave Titan
- Hermit Druid (inefficient)

Cards that meet the 2nd requirements:
- Garruk Primal Hunter
- Garruk Relentless (found him underwhelming)
- Liliana of the Viel
- Elsepth/sorin maybe?

The problem with stuff like Master of the Wild hunt, Olivia, etc is they can just trade one for one with bolts or swords and you gain no CA and lost your bomb while your opponent lost one mana and a card he effectively has 4-12 of. Also, prime titan is a tank. I have been playing him lately. I dont think I have lost a game where he hits the table. 12 power with trample is pretty hard, and I have actually liked drawing into treetop villages too.

Alternatively, if we could somehow form a list with really high threat density and a way to insure we'd have the mana to fuel 4 drop after 4 drop, things like Oliva, nath and master of the wild hunt would be much better. But when we only have 4-6 bomby creatures like them in the deck they are just going to eat removal every time. I am not sure what the right number is, but I am guessing over 10 which might be hard to fit in.

I like to think of this deck as more of a control deck and so your threats need to have quality over quantity which is why I think titans and PW are probably our best bet for win cons. Huntsmaster I havent tested yet, but he looks like he would be strong too.

Most top legacy decks have a really hard time dealing with PW. Even this deck which packs pulses, discard, and dudes with trample still hates seeing a jace or elsepth from UW control. They ALWAYS generate CA, worst possible case: you play one use an ability to make a token, diabolic edict your opponent, etc and then they have to waste a turn swinging at the walker or bolting it. And if they DONT swing at it, bolt it, etc you get even more value out of them. And if left unanswered, or if you can protect them, they win the game.

[moseby]

Yes you can cabal therapy Emrakul out of your own hand, the only problem is that you have to reveal your hand once therapy resolves. My other concern with PoR is that they may be able to kill the dude you are trying to put it on. Also can the effect be stifled? here is the oracle text:

When enchanted creature dies, that creature's controller may search his or her library for a creature card and put that card onto the battlefield. If that player does, he or she shuffles his or her library.

The last thing is you need to have an outlet to kill the dude. I realize that we should have about a dozen ways to do so but you are not guaranteed to have one in hand every time you need it.

[Koplinchen]

Hello everyone,

In last week I am working on "jund" version of this deck. I liked the idea of punishing fire because I felt that decks like maverick or merfolk still held some chance and inclusion of red instant doesnt only means they are dead and buried but it also dramaticaly improves control matchup leaving combo as the only weakness.

I am not completely sure with nubmers of all the choices yet.

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze ................. really good
2 Eternal Witness ..................can bring back wasted grove
3 Huntmaster of the Fells ..................this card is insane. Its mabye incorrect to run 3
and not to run Thrun, but its so good. Generates instant
CA and with nightmare or Pfire you can flip it over and
over. Gain life!
1 Primeval Titan ...............not such a beast like his black counterpart, but
still beating. Included obvisously because
you can fetch him with GSZ. Even if he gets the boot he
still brings you two groves. I sould mabye add some
manlands - not sure about that one.
1 Grave Titan ......... two turn clock


4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire .......great with Liliana. You all know that.
3 Sensei DT ........I want to draw one every single game. After side
I keep Mindbreak Trap on top all game and only play it
on his Tendrils. GG.
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstorm Puls ........dont like them. Hate to see one in my opening seven.
1 Recurring Nightmare .........always good. dont need to fetch it.
3 Liliana ......even better in this version. no more hellbant thx to
PF
1 Garruk Relentless .......Love him. He can do everything. It can fetch B titan.

lands - not sure about manlands
3forest
2swamp
1moutain
1Phyrexian Tower
4Grove of Burnwillows
1bayou
1taiga
1badland
4verdant catacomb
3wooded foothills


Deck really works. What do guys think?

[Qweerios]

It should be stifle-able because the rule text starts with "when", which makes it a triggered ability.

I agree on Planeswalkers being apropriate for this deck. They greatly affect the board, are very difficult to deal with (especialy for creature-light decks), and they will burry your opponent 6 feet under post Deed/Damnation. I have been toying around with 5-6 Planeswalkers in my GBw version for a while now and I believe that:

Liliana of the Veil is one of the best Planeswalkers availlable. She will quickly choke your opponent to topdeck mode, and from there, she is very difficult to get rid of. You can safely play four copies without suffering from the Legendary rule.

All the other Planeswalkers for this version are token generators. Garruk, Primal Hunter is the strongest of them. The tokens he produces have a significant size and will trump most utility creatures in the format. He will also break standstills by allowing you to draw 3+ cards. Elspeth, Knight-Errant is a close second to Primal Hunter offering more reach. I have mixed feelings about Garruk Relentless though. He can feel very apropriate when he acts as removal and follows up as a tutor, but in most cases, he doesn't. Generally, he remains Relentless and acts as a wolfblossom. The tokens he generate are very underwhelming and usually act as chumpblockers. Sorin, Lord of Innistrad is a weaker version of Elspeth. Despite playing all of those Planeswalkers and Deranged Hermit, his anthem was never an important factor.

As I play Nic Fit more and more, I am starting to realize how uneeded and dangerous splashing a 3rd color is. Using more color heavy cards (Liliana, Primal Hunter, Witness, Hymn, etc.) is often neglected because of the strain it puts on a 3color manabase. One of the arguments in favor of playing 3 colors is that an Explorer trigger grants us a stable 3color manabase. However, in the absence of that trigger, 3color Nic Fit lists are often stranded for mana and easely cut off. Even though Punishing Fit offers great synergy and a very powerful engine, it does so at the cost of having an extremely vulnerable manabase.

One of the recurring themes for splashing a 3rd color is the availlability of better removal. Whether you choose White or Red as your 3rd color, the choice is usually justified by the availlability of Swords to Plowshares, Vindicate, Punishing Fire, and various sideboard options such as the Enlightened Tutor package and Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast. Cards like Academy Rector, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Broodmate Dragon, and Huntmaster of the Fells for instance are usually added perks.

With that being said, I think there are ways to fully take advantage of Explorer triggers within two colors. Cards like Dungrove Elder, and Garruk, Primal Hunter are fair examples.

[Malakai]

Here's my attempt at building a deck that can actually use Green Sun's Zenith well.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Grave Titan
3 Vindicate / Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Wasteland
2 Horizon canopy
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland

It's obviously very rough, and the mana is completely untested, but you get the idea. You now have a lot of cards that your opponent must deal with or lose. This list seems like it's going to be a lot better than all the lists crammed with miserable do-nothings. Adding in the knights required taking out the non-therapy discard, which hurt, but discard does not match up well against decks running Snapcaster.

Some people might lament the loss of maindeck life-gain. Yes, you're going to lose some percentage points against Burn. No, you don't really care because you have this thing called a sideboard. Plus, sometimes you'll just play swords and gain 9.

[TheArchitect]

Malakai and Queerios are both going in very different directions. The Johnny side of me wants the control/PW direction to be better, but tbh I am not sure which is. Even as much as I hate PW, they are incredible powerful combined with the core of this deck. However, I would still be interested in seeing how the more threat heavy style decks do.

I can also vouch for the BG version, I find the manabase incredibly stable. Against wasteland.dec I fetch for basics and with little to know consequence (it usually just means I cant hymn turn 2). Ive also been running Phyrexian arena in place of top and haven't really missed top. The card filtering is nice but I dont think I've lost a game where I've resolved an arena and untapped. With 2 colors, making double black is never an issue and top isn't as important since you won't need to use it to help land fix for you after you wastelanded (or just kept an iffy hand).

Sure stps and huntsmaster are awesome, but there is removal and creatures in B/G that work almost as well. I dont think they are worth it in their own. That said, I think the red or white splash will have a much easier matchup against UW control because of PF and rector shenanigans, so the splash may be worth it.

[hyperchord24]

Let's not forget that Sun Titan with a deed is game over for decks playing small creatures. That's the main reason why I splash white.

[Vandalize]

After playing a Standard tournament with my Solar Flare.dec, I've borrowed some thinking from a Wolf Run player I've faced in the swiss.

And it might work in a Nic Fit shell.

Primeval Titan and Kessig Wolf Run + Inkmoth Nexus. Making usually a 1~2 turn clock. And it flies.

Moreover, Kessig Wolf Run might give other threats a little reach. Because it can just tap for trample and no pump at all.

This might sound a little strange, in a legacy point of view, but it can work.

[Swing4Five]

Funny you would mention that, I have been brewing a Huntmaster / Punishing Fire list that also runs singletons of Wolf Run and Treetop Village to facilitate Primeval Titan being a GSZ-able multi-threat.

I started with just 2 GSZ, no Living Wish in the maindeck, as I wanted to have an actual sideboard; but when building said sideboard I realized I was including a few 1-2 of hateful creatures and lands anyhow, so I made a bit of a Wishboard, focusing on cards I would want to side in in some matches anyways, and made room for 2 Living Wish maindeck. The deck is not made to be reliant on either, but they allow for flexibility in in-game situations.

The purpose of this deck, is to stymie the opponents game plan in the very early turns, and then utilize the bonkers power-level high drops Wizards has been printing in the last 5 years to go completely go over the top of the usual low-cost cards of legacy. I feel Punishing Fire may be able to fit into both roles here, as early game removal and late game engine, and having red also lets me play with the new toy out of the box, Huntmaster of the Fells.

Anyways here is the list I am currently building to test, the numbers are definitely in flux, but I feel that this could be a good starting point for a flexible red version. Thanks to everyone else on the thread that has been brewing up new innovations that I may have borrowed.

Maindeck:
Artifacts
2 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Grave Titan

Enchantments
3 Pernicious Deed

Instants
3 Punishing Fire

Planeswalkers
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk Relentless

Sorceries
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Inquisition
2 Innocent Blood
2 Living Wish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse

Basic Lands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain

Lands
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Graven Cairns
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Treetop Village
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs

Sideboard:
1 Shriekmaw
1 Tabernacle
1 Bog
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Yixlid Jailer
1 Viridian Zealot
2 REB
2 Choke
1 Karakas
3 Mindbreak Trap

[Malakai]

I'm not saying you have to play white or anything. Honestly there's a valid case for playing blue. Two-color seems fine. What I am saying is that the GSZ lists with nothing worthwhile to GSZ for are not in any way optimal.

I can definitely see the case for a deck that is running Liliana, Garruk Relentless, Elspeth, AND Sorin, but I have no idea what it'd look like.

Sun Titan, while awesome, often seems win-more, as you're already strong against the creature decks.

[Koby]

This is mostly from memory ~

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy

1 Elspeth K-E
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Garruk Relentless
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Eternal Witness
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grave Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage

2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 GSZ
2 Sword to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
7 fetchlands
1 Phyrexian Tower

It's much easier to cast Sorin than it is to cast Elspeth; even still it might make sense to add a 2nd basic Plains for her and Sun Titan; otherwise we can cut her out completely and drop down to 1 Plains.

EDIT: I miscounted, now the list is 60 cards.

[groupcelebration]

It's much easier to cast Sorin than it is to cast Elspeth; even still it might make sense to add a 2nd basic Plains for her and Sun Titan; otherwise we can cut her out completely and drop down to 1 Plains.

What matchups do you feel Elspeth and Sorin are an upgrade over running Hymn or some 1 mana Discard spells, or even targeted removal?

And would improving those matchups make it worth opening yourself to wasteland against all the tempo decks and maverick? And trying to get WW on a splash color seems really greedy.

[groupcelebration]

I'm not saying you have to play white or anything. Honestly there's a valid case for playing blue. Two-color seems fine. What I am saying is that the GSZ lists with nothing worthwhile to GSZ for are not in any way optimal.

I can definitely see the case for a deck that is running Liliana, Garruk Relentless, Elspeth, AND Sorin, but I have no idea what it'd look like.

Sun Titan, while awesome, often seems win-more, as you're already strong against the creature decks.

What lists don't have anything worthwhile to GSZ for? It seems pretty standard to run Dryad Arbor, Explorer, Thrun, Witness, Ooze, and something to kill an artifact. That alone gives you a ton of options against almost every deck.

What would we take out for blue cards? I feel like Cabal Therapy, Deed and Pulse are the reason to play the deck. Realistically how many slots do we have for another color... 6-8 maybe? Blue also makes you fetch a blue dual first (assuming the blue cards you decide to play are brainstorm, spell pierce, spell snare?), which immediately opens you up to wasteland.

If you're splashing white you don't have to worry about getting white mana until you actually need to cast a Swords to Plowshares. But at that point what are you Swords to Plowsharing that you couldn't already handle with Pulse, Deed, Dismember, or Go For the Throat?

[BlackStarDeceiver]

The blue cards you want to play are Jace and Brainstorm and the random cards that have to be tested, like Simic Sky Swallower or Havengul Lich.

You cut down on removal, which is okay because you got a bouncer for your witness.

[groupcelebration]

I played a small event at a local store today with the following build

4 cabal therapy
3 hymn
1 inquisition of kozilek
3 maelstrom pulse
2 innocent blood
4 green suns zenith

3 pernicious deed
1 sensei's divining top
1 sylvan library

4 veteran explorer
2 scavenging ooze
2 dungrove elder
1 acidic slime
1 thrun
1 grave titan
1 shriekmaw
1 spike weaver

2 liliana of the veil
1 garruk primal hunter

4 verdant catacombs
3 wooded foothills
2 polluted delta

6 forests
3 swamps
2 bayou
1 dryad arbor
1 phyrexian tower

I went 3-1. I won against Reanimator, UW Control, Painter Grindstone. Lost to High Tide.

The high tide match seems bad, since giving them 2 lands basically means you die. Game one was pretty funny when turn one on the play I therapy naming High Tide and hit, stuff ilke that happens in stores when the same people always play the same decks . It wasn't enough though and he ended up eventually going off before I could kill him. I got lucky in the second game and was able to extirpate his high tide on turn 2. This slowed the game down a lot, but I was blanking on threats. He was eventually able to go off on my turn without high tide, by resetting and turnabouting a bunch of times and getting his storm count up high enough anyway.I think I had a chance to win this, I was naming the wrong cards with cabal therapy. And I should have been more proactive at getting rid of his cunning wish. I learned a lot from playing this match, since I had never played against High Tide before.

Reanimator is rough pre-board. You're hoping to land a turn 2 ooze and pray it gets you there. It did for game one. I lost the second game to some play errors and his deck just being resilient. Game three I had leyline of the void and ooze. He had an echoing truth for the leyline, but ooze was brutal. He was searching hard but couldn't find show and tell.

Painter Grindstone seemed like a good matchup until he killed me on turn two the first game. Games two and three stalled for a long time because of pernicious deed. I was able to grind out game two and in game three I got there after drawing 7 cards off of Garruk Primal Hunter thanks to my very big ooze. Although pernicious deed was the only reason I was in that game either.

UW Control played out pretty weird. His hand for game one stalled on lands because of a hymn. He only had Island and 2 Maze of Iths for most of the game. The Mazes stalled me, but eventually I was able to find a GSZ for Dungrove elder to get there. Game three my opener had 2 Hymns and a Cabal Therapy. After a few turns he had nothing, but I didn't either so he hit me with Mishra Factory for a bit. Eventually I got a Garruk Primal Hunter but he answered with a Geist of Saint Traft, which he had to attack into Garruk to keep him from ultimating. I basically won both these games because I got crazy lucky with Hymns and almost every time I cast Cabal Therapy I hit multiple cards.

Random thoughts:

I think I've changed my mind on Garruk, Primal Hunter. Both times I was able to play him, he was able to totally turn the tide of the game. Drawing a lot of cards is good. I think I'm OK with 1 for now though.

I tried an Inquisition of Kozilek over the 4th Hymn. I liked it, but I'm still not sure about it. I had the 4th Hymn in the board and I sided it in a few times, but usually I didn't.

I'm torn on Sylvan Library. The card is incredible, but it doesn't play well with Pernicious Deed. I did have to destroy it a couple of times in games. But being able to pay 4 life to draw cards was relevant in two different matches. It should probably be a second top, but I might try it again next week.

My biggest problem with the current list is that often times I'd be in control of games, but unable to put pressure on. My list isn't optimal, I had ordered cards for this tournament but they didn't arrive yet. I don't really want the shriekmaw main, however I do want a few of them in the sideboard to deal with show and tell decks. I'd rather add a couple of more creatures (witness and scavenging ooze) and probably a third Liliana.

[Malakai]

My biggest problem with the current list is that often times I'd be in control of games, but unable to put pressure on.

This is what I mean when I say that the Green Sun's Zenith's don't do enough after turn 2.

[hyperchord24]

I see a lot of small/utility creatures that can be zenith'd for, but nothing all that big, save for deranged hermit. What can be run? Do you just take the fact that zenith is for the utility creatures and you wait to draw grave titan? Is it worth running primeval titan, gigapede or grave-shell scarab?