2 Eternal Witness
1 Grave Titan
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Birds of Paradis
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
4 Punishing Fire
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountains
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
SB:
3 Engineered Plague
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Innocent Blood
1 Open spot, maybe a life gain card?
So after a bit of testing against; U/W Stoneforge, UWR DelverStoneforge, Storm and Counterbalance. Garruk Relentless wasn't very good, and not being able to tutor for him was pretty bad. I'm aware that Garruk Relentless might not be the best against Storm and CB. However Huntmaster of the Fells was great all day, so much value. I have not been able to test Master of the Wild Hunt, but so far it hasn't been to good. I'll have to test a bit more against elves. My meta is now; Merfolk, Counterbalance, Storm, Merfolk, Maverick, Deadguy Ale, Zoo, High Tide, Elves, U/R Delver, Mono-Red and Pox. I'm assuming Master of the Wild Hunt should be fine against elves, but doesn't seem like it should be good against much of anything else. Not sure what to add in though :).
Last edited by Stoyrm; 03-04-2012 at 03:11 PM.
So has anyone been doing well against combo? I spent several hours losing to Storm and Sneak and Show. We tried all sorts of things and couldn't find anything that could reliably beat them. Is anyone having any luck and what sideboard options work?
Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Storm isn't too bad, Sneak/Show is damn near unwinnable. I regard it as something of the deck's achilles heel and proceed to ignore it.
I went 3-3 today at Jupiter's NELC due to strange matchups and my deck randomly mana screwing me two rounds in a row. However, when my deck felt like playing magic, it crushed mercilessly -- beating Stoneblade, Bant Blade, and Burn, while losing to Metalworker with basics (what an atrocious matchup that was!), Fish, and U/R Painter. The latter of these is where I got screwed -- fish had Force, Daze, double lord, and triple wasteland, then game two I mulled to 5 to find a land, found a basic plains, and then nothing else. Pretty similar story with Painter -- I died turn two or three to Painter, and then had mana issues again g2 after mulling.
Still happy with the deck's performance. Secret tech was a pair of Baneslayers and a pair of Tsunamis in the sb. Full report tomorrow sometime.
How are you beating Storm? Was it UB Storm, or Burning Wish TES? What cards were you using to stop them and what cards were you using to actually kill them?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
My post on the bottom of the last page has some pretty good notes on things that are good against combo: reduce your GSZ package, use Living Wish for Thalia, Canonist, and/or Gaddock Teeg, and run more discard in the main deck. Also, reading the thread is fundamental.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
I'm not talking about magical christmas land, it's possible I didn't make my point clearly.
If you GSZ for Knight. He can't do anything until the next turn. If you decide to make use of his ability, then you can't attack with him right away. So he might not actually do anything for you until two turns after you played him, if you decide to keep him back to block and then go get a fetch land or wasteland with his ability.
So I think you've overstated Knight's immediate affect on the board. His control of certain matchups through his ability to fetch a couple of one-off lands or wasteland, is something that really requires him to be around for at least a couple of turns. At which point he can take over games against some decks. Although he also dies to a lot of removal and can be shrunk with graveyard hate. And he also forces you to turn your manabase into garbage. So there's certainly a downside to running him.
When I play with Dungrove, all I have to do is hit land drops and kill my explorers and he gets bigger. I don't have to deviate from my normal game plan just to make him better. It's possible the deck should change more to make better use of him. I'm not sure yet...While he can't fetch a wasteland, he also can't easily die. Which makes him awesome against blue decks. (This only really matters because I'm a zoo player and I want my revenge against all those UW decks I've lost to)
I will agree it's possible that there is a better creature than either of these though.
In almost any situation if I didn't already have an Ooze on the table, I'd probably GSZ for an Ooze before I'd go for Elder or Knight.
Alright, I'm about to collapse so if this doesn't quite make full sense, I apologize.
For beating combo: consider your deck. It isn't an attrition deck anymore. It isn't a rock deck, a control deck, or a combo deck (if it ever was). It's a prison deck now. Your sole goal is to stop them from winning, to literally shut down the ways they can win the game, to the point at which any random asshole in your deck becomes a wincon. I personally achieve this through lockpiece enchantments to supplement my Rector package, along with Surgical Extractions and Memoricide/Cranial Extraction. The only thing you need to worry about vs combo of any generic type is its speed. If ANT or TES turn ones you, or even turn two without a Therapy, then there isn't anything you can do. But if they don't have the stone nuts, you can easily lock them out of the game.
Against either ANT or TES, first Cabal names LED. If you hit one and you Surgical that, it hurts them bad.
Against ANT, Cranial/Mem naming Tendrils. Most decks don't have a backup wincon, so you literally win on the spot.
Against TES, try to disrupt their tutors as much as you can. LED is the most important, but don't miss an opportunity to Surgical Infernal or Burning.
Against High Tide, hit their cantrips ASAP. Screw High Tide itself, because most of the time they board one or two out so that they can Wish for them because they're scared of surgical/extirpate. If you take away any ONE of their cantrips (Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain), it becomes hard for them to win. If you take TWO, it's almost impossible with any kind of backup lock pieces or respectable clock. Merchant Scroll and Turnabout can also make their life miserable.
Against all of these decks, be canny with your Surgicals. Don't bother trying to go for Brainstorm -- you want them to Brainstorm in response to Therapy to hide things. Then you Surgical something, forcing a deck shuffle and essentially hymning them.
If you just have Cranial/Mem/Surgicals, then you'll at least have some game vs combo. But if you also supplement that with respectable enchantments that do things vs other matchups while still coming in vs combo, you'll be fine. I usually end up boarding in really marginal things vs combo decks because a lot of the maindeck is just dead in the combo matchup...removal, deeds, etc. Like I usually end up boarding in Cold-Eyed Selkie vs a combo deck, just for additional draw to try to find more hate. It isn't really good for the matchup, and it definitely isn't what it's meant for/in my board for, but it's good splash hate. Be inventive.
I'm going to shut up now and go to bed. Hope that helps. Just remember: think prison before playing the deck like any other archetype vs combo. Your job isn't to win, it's to stop them from winning.
This seems like much better advice than "Living Wish for Thalia and read the thread."
Thanks. Appreciate it. I'll try this out tomorrow.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Sneak and Tell and SnT Hive Mind are not good matchups but you can get to 35-40%. If you play with Living Wish you can get Karakas in G1 and that way beat SnT. SA is almost impossible to beat though.
If I don't play with Living Wish I always have 3 Diabolic Edict in my SB. Sometimes only 2 but I think 3 is just the right number. It is very good against Reanimator, SnT and still relatively quick for the Delver matchup. That plus addional Discard and Surgical Extractions (good vs. Intuition) combined with their reliance on drawing the right combination of cards will win a good number of games.
Reanimtor and SnT are also the reason why I would never touch a card like Canonist or Mindbreak Trap as my combo hate. It would suck way too much to look at your SB and find that your anti combo card does absolutely nothing against the combo deck you are paired against. I prefer Duress (better than Thoughtseize because it also covers Burn), Surgical Extraction and Red Elemental Blast (REB does nothing against Belcher but it kills Delvers and Merfolks).
On a side note Batterskull is a hell of a card atm as a win con and it fits the deck's strategy pretty well. I think playing two of them would be good for basically any version.
I'll admit I was being a little of an ass and Tao and Arianrhod's advice on the combo matches was much more instructive than what I said, but there's value to trying to fit in more main deck discard (I think that IoK and Duress work best for us; I do like Hymn but I think this deck doesn't capitalize much on the tempo gain aspect and it would rather hit the right card than two cards. Plus they supplement Therapy by giving you info.) Anyway, sorry if I was abrasive.
I agree that Batterskull seems pretty good these days. Wondering if people are feeling the same way about Garruk Primal Hunter, I've been enjoying him lately. Getting to his ultimate is pretty achievable, his tokens generally provide a pretty good wall, and like most decks I find this one likes permanents that draw more cards.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
@Discard: So far i've been loving Thoughtseize. The two lifes are often irrelevant, and the fact that you can take batterskull, jace, ad naueseum etc are actually quite relevant :). I also don't like hymn much in this deck (i'm playing three colors though), but having thoughtseize + cabal therapy can just crush storm decks. Add inn a liliana and you're set. It's still not easy though, TES has a tendency to crush you quite quickly by playing time walks before going of.
I think Thoughtseize may be right depending on your meta. But there are plenty of matchups (Burn, Storm, most aggro decks) where the loss of two life may be relevant. I see hitting Jace and Batterskull as two pretty solid arguments for it though, but I still think the safety of something like Duress or Inquisition may be better for a control/attrition plan in a general meta with a lot of Delver/Burn/aggressive early drops running around.
Bless your heart, we must consider Blue/White Tempo's strategy and win percentages in an entirely different deck thread. -4eak
Garruk PH and Batterskull compete for the same slot (both 5 Mana, both can't be tutored with GSZ) and with so many Lightning Bolts in the format I prefer Batterskull. Very good against Dredge, too, and two hits with it give the ANT player some problems if you make it till then.
Garruk is better vs. Jace though and I play P. Fire to control Jace so maybe there are arguments for Garruk, too.
Discard:
For the same reason (many burn spells) I think that the correct 1-Mana Discard (addional to Therapy) is maindeck Inquisition and SB Duress. If you play 2 color and thus have access to Hymn I lack experience on which is better because I played with P. Fire for quite some time now.
Thoughtseize is a worse MD card than Inquisition atm because there are many matchups in which 2 life hurt a lot and not so many in which you want to snipe 4+CC spells. Also Therapy gets those expensive spells quite often once you know their hand. Duress does not get V. Clique or Emrakul but it is very good against Burn as a 1 Mana gain 3-5 life spell (if they have Sulfuric Vortex even far more) so I prefer Duress as the SB option over Thoughtseize.
Aight. I don't actually have Inquisitions lying around, which is why i haven't tested it ;D. However i can totally see the reason for having inquisition main deck. I'm quite sure i like 2x Thoughtseize in the board though. Will have to test :).
I'm not sure Primal Hunter and Batterskull compete for the same slot. They both provide the deck reach, but under different situations.
I played Primal Hunter last week and drew 7 cards off him thanks to a large Ooze. In another game I drew 5 thanks to a Dungrove Elder. The draw cards ability will win you games that Batterskull can't. Although Batterskull's life gain will do the same.
I can see both cards belonging somewhere in the 75.
Alright, here's my list for yesterday:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Mystic Enforcer
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
1x Sun Titan
3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Faith's Fetters
2x Phyrexian Arena
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Vindicate
1x Skeletal Scrying
2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Bayou
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
//SB
2x Leyline of the Void
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Stony Silence
1x Curse of Exhaustion
2x Tsunami
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Cold-Eyed Selkie
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
Changes from last time are as follows:
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Master of the Wild Hunt
-1 Forest
+2 Baneslayer
+1 Plains
SB:
-1 Kitchen Finks
-1 Choke
-1 Xantid Swarm
+2 Tsunami
+1 Stony Silence
For now, the report -- some thoughts at the end.
After going to Jupiter's old store to pick up some items for people back home, we rushed to the venue and barely had enough time to resleeve and get our deck lists down -- will definitely have to leave earlier next time we need to make that run.
Round 1: Derek with UW Stoneblade
I win the roll, keep a strong 7, and lead with a blind Cabal Therapy, calling Brainstorm. I miss, and see Snare x2, Swords x2, Snapcaster, and a pair of lands. Next turn I drop Tower, Explorer, sac Explorer, drop Rector, sac Rector to Therapy, taking his swords and putting an Arena into play. I proceed to vastly outdraw and outthreat him, and we move to game two.
In: Tsunamis, Cranial/Mem, Cold-Eye. Out: Moat, Deed, Qasali, Titan, Ooze.
Note: I didn't see Stoneforge mystic game 1. I figured it was there, but I wasn't concerned enough about it to leave the Qasali in. Likewise, I wanted to blank his Snares. Probably still a bad board decision on my part in retrospect.
Game two saw another early Arena (this one cast, not Rectored), and I once again outdrew him like crazy. I make a scary board, and he Snaps back a Wrath to blow everything up, but I'm not concerned, as he's sitting at 4 life with no cards and I have Kokusho and Recurring Nightmare in hand.
Round 2: Aaron with Metalworker
This isn't a particularly good matchup for me in general, and it quickly turns out to be worse than expected when Aaron actually fetches a pair of basic islands with my Explorer trigger. I die to a hasty Blightsteel on like turn 3.
In: Stony Silence, Mem/Cranial
Out: Skeletal, Ooze, Mystic
Note: I expected graveyard hate, which is why I dropped the Mystic. Anything that runs Lightning Greaves and multiple dudes with 5 power or more means that I do not want Skeletal Scrying at all.
Game two I land a turn two Stony Silence, which locks out his turn 1 Metalworker. He proceeds to drop a pair of Wurmcoils over the next few turns, while I make some mana and a Qasali Pridemage. I almost manage to stabilize with Garruk producing wolves to feed to Nightmare to keep Qasali'ing him turn after turn, but when he turns his whole army at Garruk and proceed to fail to find a Deed, Moat, Rector, etc, I'm not long for the world. I'm not sure that Metalworker with basics is even a winnable matchup, honestly.
Round 3: Ryan with Fish.
Note: this guy eventually goes on to top 8. Not sure where he finished therein, though.
G1 we both mull to 6. My hand's a little eh, but he doesn't seem to happy either, so we both go with it. We both do nothing for a few turns. He drops a Reej off Island, Waste, Waste. My mana situation in hand is a little awkward, so I foolishly cracked my fetches for duals, assuming that I would be able to recover from his Wastes after resolving something backbreaking -- I forget what I tried to resolve, but it got Dazed. Then he dropped another Reej, and I dropped something that got Forced, and he dropped a third wasteland and all my lands went boom. Bad decision, but I don't know what I really would have been able to do against a hand like that anyway. I had Moat and Deed in hand, and I couldn't work on Moat and Deed both without duals.
G2 I mull to five to try to find even one land in an opening hand, find a basic with a pair of Rectors and am sufficiently tilted to say fuck it. I don't draw any more land the rest of the match, and walk away pretty pissed off. I was also sufficiently tilted here that I didn't bother to write down my board. I know I brought in the Tsunamis and the Selkie. That might have been it; I'm not sure. I remember almost not boarding the Tsunamis in, but figured that since my plan was basically to resolve Moat, at that point his only out is Coralhelm, and hurting his mana would help me find more time to solve his out.
Round 4: Dan with U/R Painter.
I don't have much to say about this. I died like turn three to land->welder, petal, go; sol land->painter, go; arbitrary land, grindstone, kill you. I remember not having anything of note in my opener, and think that I mulled to 5 or 6 in game one. Game two I proceeded to have mana issues of the opposite problem, but I still had a chance. He had double Painter+Welder beatdown going, and was topping to try to find his win. I had a Cranial in hand and plenty of mana available, but I figured he had counters, so I tried to bait his hand. I did land a Therapy, but called Force instead of REB/Pyro (he had one of each in hand). This was a misplay, because I had Leyline of Sanctity out, which meant that he needed to have one of those to kill my Leyline. At the point at which I took one of them away, I could have Cranialed him, which would have drawn the other REB effect, and bought me more time. Oh well.
Round 5: Dave with Bant Blade.
I ALMOST dropped after round 4, but figured that there were only two rounds left, and it wouldn't hurt to to harvest more information for the thread. I still wanted to play against Maverick and Stoneblade, to confirm those matchups, as well as get more testing in with Baneslayer. And besides, my pride demanded that I at least finish even on the day.
G1 was something of a slugfest -- I therapy'd him, and he cliqued me, so we both had almost perfect information for much of the game. I landed a fast Baneslayer, but was forced to keep her at home due to my line of attempting to get Garruk online. At the point at which Garruk is a go, I pretty much win, so I wanted to protect him from Clique. He counters the first Garruk, and proceeds to drop and equip Batterskull to his Clique. With a Hierarch out, I can't safely block his Clique, so I eat a lot of damage. Then I drop my second Garruk, and am forced to shoot his Hierarch rather than get it online. I also drop an Explorer to chump on the ground, and pass the turn. As his Clique is now no match for my Baneslayer, he requips the Batterskull to his Knight of the Reliquary, and swings in with that. I chump, and proceed to active Garruk next turn by shooting a Rector, which finds a Deed. I swing with Baneslayer and then crack for 5, since he doesn't have the mana open to bounce Batterskull. With a completely empty board except for my flipped Garruk, the Kokusho and Eternal Witness->Baneslayer in hand quickly win me the game.
In: Selkie, Tsunamis. Out: Ooze, Titan, Mystic.
I think that boarding out Ooze here may have been a mistake, but I didn't see any graveyard interaction beyond Knight of the Reliquary, which I'm not particularly worried about.
I stick an early Arena in game two, and proceed to outdraw him. He experiences some mana problems, which I exacerbate by Vindicating his only colored land (he also had Waste and Bog). He fails to find land for a few turns and then scoops as I build board state.
As of this point, I still have yet to see a Tsunami on the day, despite boarding them in FOUR TIMES. Hopefully my last round will be another blue deck so give me another chance ...
Round 6: Jeff with Burn.
FML. I keep a strong 7 which happens to be awful against burn, and die very, very quickly to what looks like a Fire/Lightning precon with a few minor additions (ie extra hellsparks).
In: Leyline of Sanctity, Surgicals. Out: Moat, Mystic, Arenas, Scrying.
Game two I open one of my Leylines and snapkeep. I proceed to go batshit crazy while my opponent visibly tilts. The only frightening intersection of the game occurs when he drops a Figure and is poised to level to ultimate the next turn. Luckily, I have a Rector in hand, which proceeds to find Fetters, shutting down his only real threat and gaining me even more life. He eventually dies to planeswalkers that he can't burn, and a Kokusho.
Game three I open double Leyline (!!!). I snap keep, as I realize that I only have one land -- a Bayou. However, I do have a Veteran, and since he can't burn me out, he'll have to attack. That comes to pass, and I get my lands. I proceed to set up wonderfully, and by the time he attempts to drop a Sulfuric Vortex, I have a Pulse in hand and ready. He dies quickly to Elspeth jumping tokens all day.
Final result: 3-3, good for 28th place.
I only saw Baneslayer twice, even with two of them in the deck. That said, she was liquid sex both times, winning me the games effortlessly. Arena continues to be frelling retarded. I don't think I've lost a game with a resolved Arena yet, since I put them in a month or two ago. Tsunami seemed hot in testing, so it's probably going to be staying in the sideboard, although it didn't see any actual use. I do feel like I want a 22nd land -- that might smooth the deck out a bit. I'm not sure if it should be another dual, or a utility land, or what. 8 basics feels like the right number, so I don't think I want to up that any further. I'm also not sure what I'll cut for the 22nd land. Everything else felt pretty good, except for the sheer variance in rounds 3 and 4, and my matchups being shit. Well over 2/3 of the room was either Stoneblade or Maverick, and I somehow managed to find the random matchups instead of the good ones. Still, I am not at all displeased with the deck's progress. It does what it's supposed to, it just needs a littttttle bit more tuning and I think I'll be happy.
I'm fully planning on playing this at GP:Indy, so if anyone has any thoughts, they're more than welcome.
In a rector build, why are you using Tsunami over Choke?
I had Choke, and then I switched it out. The problem with Choke is that while you can Rector for it, other things are also good to Rector vs blue decks (Curse of Exhaustion comes to mind). At the same time, Sword of F/F also exists to untap artificially, and it's something of a non-bo with Veteran Explorer. Tsunami seems much better in the same capacity.
You just cut out StP?
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