[Deck] Belcher

[festeringGAB]

hello,I play a standard list,like this:

Creatures [12]
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Tinder Wall

Instants [12]
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Seething Song

Sorceries [19]
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame

Artifacts [16]
4 Chrome Mox
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal

Lands [1]
1 Taiga

4 Xantid Swarm
3 Reb
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Hull Breach
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Shattering Spree
1 Goblin War Strike

I need help for side IN - Side OUT...
If you play Vs control deck,like StoneBlade..U/W controll..SnapcasterDeck..
what do you think is the correct side IN - OUT?

[GoldenCid]

Yes, if you don't mind top decking a "dud" every now and then I find it pretty useful to have +4 ESG for Tinder Wall, I typically run it and Pyretic Ritual.

Well, if our aim is to increase the t1 win you'll dont bother if you see him in your hand because it will be always in the opening where it's useful. Yo have almost no way to topdek him except with manamoph or the turn draw...Did you exchange mox for him??

[tesla]

Well, if our aim is to increase the t1 win you'll dont bother if you see him in your hand because it will be always in the opening where it's useful. Yo have almost no way to topdek him except with manamoph or the turn draw...Did you exchange mox for him??

Why mox? It was already written before - the greatest thing about him is that he gives you mana without loosing card wich can be used later to mox.

[GoldenCid]

Why mox? It was already written before - the greatest thing about him is that he gives you mana without loosing card wich can be used later to mox.

Ok, what about a list with chancellor??

[Final Fortune]

Ok, what about a list with chancellor??

Cutting Chrome Mox is inexcusable, it's just core 52 + Chancellor of the Tangle and Pyretic Ritual.

Chacenllor of the Tangle has its upside and downsides, being able to generate G mana and imprint on Chrome Mox is virtual card advantage but top decking a "dud" does matter when you're on the draw 50 percent of the time and counting on your 8th card for mana. It's a minor issue, but it's definitely a non zero one.

[GoldenCid]

Ok, I know its up and down. And...btw what about the side here? Could pulp or anybody explain the card choice for a non wish board side?

[Pulp_Fiction]

Chancellor is interesting, before I cut it down, I haven't tested it and won't for a while. The card it would replace is Manamorphose, but when using the EtW plan ... this is infinitely weaker. The last thing I want 2 do with Belcher is add ADDITIONAL Spirit Guides. They don't add storm. And in a deck where (without Serum Powder) you don't get to pick your win con, it just shows up in the opener, that is less that ideal. The majority of your games are won with EtW, especially in BW builds and Manamorphose often adds 2 by itself where as Chancellor adds 0. It is interesting but, if you want another mana accelerator, just run Grim Monolith, its terrible, but it adds 1.

@GoldenCid: Play whatever you think is good against your meta. I ran Leyline of Punishment to race Batterskull with tokens, Swarm to be good against anything blue (as it always is), Carpet of Flowers as an experiment and it turned out to be really damn good, easily allowing me to play around Spell Pierce/taxing counters, and Ancient Grudge because I was testing if it was better than Spree; never got to board it in but I like it more in theory. Put whatever will help you against ur meta, artifact destruction, most people like blasts (I don't but thats me), enchantment destruction, etc. SB construction is dependent on your metagame and should be unique to each individual, play what works.

[GoldenCid]

Chancellor is interesting, before I cut it down, I haven't tested it and won't for a while. The card it would replace is Manamorphose, but when using the EtW plan ... this is infinitely weaker. The last thing I want 2 do with Belcher is add ADDITIONAL Spirit Guides. They don't add storm. And in a deck where (without Serum Powder) you don't get to pick your win con, it just shows up in the opener, that is less that ideal. The majority of your games are won with EtW, especially in BW builds and Manamorphose often adds 2 by itself where as Chancellor adds 0. It is interesting but, if you want another mana accelerator, just run Grim Monolith, its terrible, but it adds 1.

@GoldenCid: Play whatever you think is good against your meta. I ran Leyline of Punishment to race Batterskull with tokens, Swarm to be good against anything blue (as it always is), Carpet of Flowers as an experiment and it turned out to be really damn good, easily allowing me to play around Spell Pierce/taxing counters, and Ancient Grudge because I was testing if it was better than Spree; never got to board it in but I like it more in theory. Put whatever will help you against ur meta, artifact destruction, most people like blasts (I don't but thats me), enchantment destruction, etc. SB construction is dependent on your metagame and should be unique to each individual, play what works.

I was thinking that leyline of P is good against leyline of sancticity when you go for tokens...i'm a bit afraid of LoS, maybe revent silence will occup that slot...

[Vacrix]

What about a Spoils Belcher list that also plays Serum Powder? Its ballsy but who knows, it might be good.

[Final Fortune]

Chancellor is interesting, before I cut it down, I haven't tested it and won't for a while. The card it would replace is Manamorphose, but when using the EtW plan ... this is infinitely weaker. The last thing I want 2 do with Belcher is add ADDITIONAL Spirit Guides. They don't add storm. And in a deck where (without Serum Powder) you don't get to pick your win con, it just shows up in the opener, that is less that ideal. The majority of your games are won with EtW, especially in BW builds and Manamorphose often adds 2 by itself where as Chancellor adds 0. It is interesting but, if you want another mana accelerator, just run Grim Monolith, its terrible, but it adds 1.

@GoldenCid: Play whatever you think is good against your meta. I ran Leyline of Punishment to race Batterskull with tokens, Swarm to be good against anything blue (as it always is), Carpet of Flowers as an experiment and it turned out to be really damn good, easily allowing me to play around Spell Pierce/taxing counters, and Ancient Grudge because I was testing if it was better than Spree; never got to board it in but I like it more in theory. Put whatever will help you against ur meta, artifact destruction, most people like blasts (I don't but thats me), enchantment destruction, etc. SB construction is dependent on your metagame and should be unique to each individual, play what works.

Even if you replace Manamorphose with Chancellor of the Tangle, it's unlikely your Empty the Warrens will be for less than lethal. There's a diminishing returns on the amount of storm you generate, and not being able to accurately analyze your opening 7 because you don't know what your 8th card will be is just asking for unnecessary variance. Belcher lives and dies by the number of initial mana sources it has available, playing any less than you're able just makes you more vulnerable to Daze.

Leyline of Punishment is a terrible choice compared to Leyline of the Meek IMO, the crusade is good against everything.

[Vacrix]

I think Chancellor of the Tangle should be run along side MM, not replace it. I'd think it could be a reasonable replacement for Land Grant actually. It could allow you to play a Landless Belcher list, and potentially allow you to successfully play Recross the Paths.

[Final Fortune]

Cutting 5 r/g mana sources for 4 g mana sources is a really bad idea for what should be obvious reasons.

[GoldenCid]

Why not wild cantor?

[tesla]

Because it doesn´t give you any mana .-)

[Vacrix]

Cutting Land Grants shouldn't present color issues often. 4 Manamorphose, 4 Tinderwall, 4 Chrome Mox, 4 Lotus Petal and 4 Simian Spirit Guide are enough. By the way that 20 red sources, not 16. You shouldn't need more than that. The down side of running Chancellor over LG is that the land stays around to produce mana, while Chancellor is also a dead draw beyond the opening hand.

I'm still a fan of Recross the Paths though, so I'm going to do some testing with Chancellor and see how it goes.

[tesla]

i am a fan of recross path as well. it is a good path .) it is much more entertaining than traditional belcher build and you can use green pact as a mana source. you guys mentioned before that you use meditate as a draw engine. well i must say that ideas unbound is much better solution for me. three cards is enough for the combo and is 1mana cheaper wich you realy appreciate. that means you only need five mana + recross + cantrip to go off. three mana and cantrip or three mana and LED means that you can go off next turn wich is the most common situation to be honest. but i think it´s still good.

[Vacrix]

Yeah. I thinking -5 perpetual mana sources is going to make it a bit harder to make pass the turn piles. Likely with those piles you will win on turn 3, which is exactly like normal Belcher.

[tesla]

why turn three? you´ll win on turn two usually. as i told you my most common play with recross is like that: 1st turn: lotus petal + simian spirit guide + rite of flame - recross the path and lion´s eye into play. 2nd turn: draw probe, play probe and crack LED for three blue, draw ideas unbound, play it and draw LED, LED, probe, play probe, crack both LEDs and draw belcher. Done.

[thefringthing]

(Sideboarding against Force of Will.)

I used to do +4 Xantid Swarm, +4 Pyroblast, -1 Taiga, -4 Land Grant, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Manamorphose, -1 Pyretic Ritual. This was before people replaced Manamorphose with Gitaxian Probe, though. You could try just boarding out the Taiga, Land Grants, and some Probes. You really should be playing Pyroblasts over REBs in this deck, by the way.

[Vacrix]

why turn three? you´ll win on turn two usually. as i told you my most common play with recross is like that: 1st turn: lotus petal + simian spirit guide + rite of flame - recross the path and lion´s eye into play. 2nd turn: draw probe, play probe and crack LED for three blue, draw ideas unbound, play it and draw LED, LED, probe, play probe, crack both LEDs and draw belcher. Done.

Yeah but this deck would be tits if it could have LED in hand every game.

I see what you are saying though. If you are holding the draw spell in hand and don't have LED, than you can put LED as the top card, and then wait a turn, draw LED, and then play Probe, cracking LED. But if your cycler is MM instead of Probe than you need 2 IMS to start the combo, which means you need 3 cards. This version of the deck might want to play a few Street Wraiths.

On the up side, its much easier to go off with Recross, and even if you don't have the cycler or LED in hand, you can set up the top 2 cards that way to win on turn 3.

If Chancellor proves itself as a reasonable replacement for LG, Recross the Paths could potentially be better than Burning Wish. Either way the deck is going all in with these cards but Burning Wish requires you to have a total of 6 mana to go off and a high spell count (8 tokens isn't a win) while Recross requires half that because you can stack the deck. The only downside of Recross is that you need to have a cycler in hand and play 0 lands for it to be consistent. Further, Burning Wish doesn't give you access to a pass the turn play. You need to wait a few turns and hope you draw the right cards.