[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[hyperchord24]

I don't want to bring up fun (this argument always derails into fun = winning tournaments, etc), but I like an aggro control decklist that doesn't run counters (or blue in general) and I like playing fatties. Yes, I'm a Timmy.

[Tao]

eh. It is quite competitive, though I would very much appreciate people being more open to new ideas and playing what is actually better and not what they like better. But speaking of Maverick, one reason to play this is certainly to beat up Maverick.

[CorpT]

eh. It is quite competitive, though I would very much appreciate people being more open to new ideas and playing what is actually better and not what they like better. But speaking of Maverick, one reason to play this is certainly to beat up Maverick.

This is about all I can see. But it seems like you give up a lot of other matchups that Maverick is good at. Like, if it's not a creature deck, Nic Fit seems like it is going to be in trouble whereas Maverick is more forgiving, but loses to Nic Fit.

I really tried and couldn't get Nic Fit to beat most of the combos or burn. Am I wrong there?

[sap]

This is about all I can see. But it seems like you give up a lot of other matchups that Maverick is good at. Like, if it's not a creature deck, Nic Fit seems like it is going to be in trouble whereas Maverick is more forgiving, but loses to Nic Fit.

I really tried and couldn't get Nic Fit to beat most of the combos or burn. Am I wrong there?

nop i dont think you're wrong.
high tide, metalworker combo.. tbh any turn 3-4 combo can wreck this deck unless we have really good draws (discard). also burn is a pain in the ass.

why play it then? just because it has a hard time against some matchups doesnt mean its a bad deck, its a really fun deck to play in a balanced meta imo. i dont know how it became a "deck to beat" deck (that discussion is long gone), but its definately an established deck that if it can survive the first 3-4 turns it generaly wins.

[toor]

Are there any cards you have seen from GW maverick post sb, that have been effective against you guys?

I would assume Elpseth. I am looking to play Maverick at the GP and have a couple slots in my board which I want to use to address Nic Fit (a bad matchup in my limited experience). Is thrun any good?

[Arianrhod]

I'm not sure how exactly the thread derailed into a debate of whether it's good enough to exist as an archetype or not, but I guess I'll chime in.

For me, the deck attacks the legacy meta-meta in a very specific way: the format has been tuned for so long against decks whose bigger threats are 2- and 3- drops that something like this deck, which consistently lands threats deemed vastly too expensive for legacy, absolutely preys on the pre-established paradigm. I can't count the number of times I've resolved a Sun Titan or Kokusho (or Yosei, before I cut him), and my opponent has either just stared at it until he died, or exclaimed that he doesn't have an answer to it and scooped on the spot. Legacy decks aren't built with 4-6 drops in mind, and being able to attack that weakness is something that this deck does like nothing else in the format. That is one reason why I personally believe that the lists that cut all of their 6-drops and most of the 5's are missing the point: if you dumb your creatures down, while you may make them cheaper, you're losing the raw power that defines the archetype. Also of note: for me, Timmy doesn't enter into the equation. The size of the creatures involved comes down to sheer efficiency: the bigger your threat in legacy, the less likely your opponent will be able to deal with it, and the less time you give your opponent to dig out of whatever situation you've put him into.

I will admit some Johnny alongside my Spike, though. Recurring Nightmare is a ridiculous card that should absolutely see more play than it does. IMO, if you're playing this deck, you should be playing Nightmare, because it leads to some of the most broken interactions you will ever experience.

When it comes down to why this deck as opposed to Maverick, though, Tao's point about eating Maverick alive is absolutely accurate. We also have excellent matchups against Stoneblade and RUG*, to say nothing of (currently) less popular archetypes like Zoo. While we give some ground against combo for this, I don't think you'll find a deck better prepared to fight any fair deck in the format. As far as the unfair decks are concerned, that's what a sideboard is for. My personal sideboard (as I can't speak to other peoples') has been crafted with the goal in mind of having most of it available against combo decks, while also having pieces of it useful against specific other decks that I want to shore up my matchup vs. Chains of Mephistopheles is an excellent example: it comes in immediately vs any storm deck, but retains usefulness against Enchantress and blue decks in general.

Think of it this way: Nic Fit is the control/prison version of Maverick, which is an aggro-control deck at its heart. Maverick is able to fight combo through having just enough disruption post-board for their natural aggro plan to come online. Nic Fit should be focusing on using as many prison elements as possible to shut down their opponents' plan, then proceed to drop something fat and close the game down in the span of two or three turns at most, while the opponent is struggling to dig out. I mean, yeah, sure combo is sometimes going to turn one you, and all you can do is smile and offer your hand. That's the price for not playing Force of Will. But I think that running a non-blue control deck gives you enough ground against the rest of the format that if you happen to run into the asshole playing charbelcher, you still come out on top.

I mean, if you want to beat combo every game, I don't know why you're here in the first place. If you want to beat blue and fair decks, then I don't know why you'd play Maverick over this. To each their own, though, I suppose.

* It depends on the type of RUG, though. Delvers can be a little bit of a problem if they come out fast enough and have the counters to back them up. If RUG doesn't have the nuts, though, it usually turns badly for them fairly quickly. We generate way too much value for a tempo strategy to keep up with.

[Tao]

@CorpT/sap:
My latest list that I posted a few pages ago played 3 Huntmaster, 2 GSZ to find them, 2 Batterskull and 4 Living Wish for Obstinate Baloth, 3 IoK, 4 Therapies and 3 SB Duress so Burn is actually a clearly positive matchup for my list. I am switching back and forth between Living Wish and no Living Wish, so without Wish it gets a bit less good but it is still enough for a positive matchup. Probably your list just wasn't built properly for that matchup.

The fact that Combo is the weakest matchup of this deck is no big news, you just have to know what you can beat. You can beat Reanimator and Dredge with the right SB (and play Nihil Spellbomb MD, it is so much potential value atm) and those are imo the most scary Combo decks because unlike Storm Combo they can beat RUG. Other Combo decks will be worse but every deck will have its bad matchups.
Focussing on the Sneak and Tell matchup is a waste of time, the matchup is bad but chances are you won't see it too much on the higher tables. Play a bit discard and pack 3 Diabolic Edicts in the Wishless SB because they target Reanimator, SnT as well as RUG and cross your fingers.

[CorpT]

I'm not saying the deck isn't competitive. It's on my short-list of 2 to take to GP:Indy. I'm just trying to determine what advantage it has over something else (Maverick in this case) and why I should play one over the other.

From what I can tell Nic Fit is good against:
Maverick
RUG
UW Stoneblade
Random Creature decks

Bad against:
Combo
Burn

If I got the tournament expecting mostly what it is good against, especially Maverick, Nic Fit seems like a good choice. If I'm concerned about Combo and Burn, Nic Fit seems like a worse choice. One issue I have is that I only have 1 Bye, so I'm concerned about losing early to Burn.

This isn't to say that Nic Fit is bad, it just has different strengths. So, maybe more to the point, do you think that Indy will have a meta favorable to Nic Fit? I'm concerned about it.

[Arianrhod]

CorpT, it definitely depends on your build. My build, as well as Tao's, are both heavily favored against Burn, while at the same time being very different. Leyline is such a beating against them, though, and if you're really worried about it you can always run Warmth as well. Baneslayer is obviously game over. Just make sure you leave in all of your ways to get rid of Sulfuric Vortex and you should be fine. The straight GB list is really the only one you want to avoid if you're concerned about burn. Either red or white splash has solid options, most of which you want to have access to anyway for other matchups.

Also, from what I've seen/heard of, Burn is an abysmal matchup for Maverick...so I'm not sure you want to be on that plan either if Burn is your concern.

[Qweerios]

I wouldn't say Stoneblade is a favorable matchup. Before I shelved the deck, beating Stoneblade regularly was my primary objective. I don't really have time to explain what makes Stoneblade an even matchup right now. I piloted Nic Fit in at CMT Quebec and realized that in order for Nic Fit to be competitive, an Explorer trigger has to occur within the first 3 turns of the match. Without it, we have a very low land count for our curve, therefore often miss land drops, and cannot deal with early pressure. Any decent tempo opening from Tempo Thresh and Team America backed by a Stifle is near unbeatable. Explorer and Deed being the most exposed to Stifle and the cards we are the most reliant on. With this said, I believe that the only reason this deck thrives in the current meta is because of the disproportionate amount of maverick players around.

[Tao]

I think that my last build covers a lot of the things that get criticized here which makes me feel confident about it being the best version of the deck in the current Meta. I honestly think that it could be the right choice for Indy, but you will have to test yourself.

If you prefer to test without Living Wish my version without Wish has - 4 Wish, + 1 Pulse, + 1 Witness, + 1 Inquisition, + 1 Recurring Nightmare. SB: 3 Surgical, 3 Diabolic Edict, 3 Duress, 1 Ooze, 1 Wickerbough Elder, 2 Damnation, 2 Red Elemental Blast. Both versions seem equally strong so far.

- Cheap removal like P. Fire and Innocent Blood makes you less reliant on Explorer triggers. P Fire is very good vs. Stoneblade because you if you didn't draw Therapy you can just kill the Stoneforge without falling behind on cards and worry about Batterskull later. It also gets Jace and vs. RUG it gets Delver and Lavamancer.
- maindeck Nihil Spellbombs are very very good, I can't stress that enough. If you look at the DtB forum there is not a single deck against which they only cycle without effect. Vs. Dredge and Reanimator it is obvious nuts, vs. Maverick it lets P. Fire eat KotR, vs Stoneblade it reduces the impact of Snapcaster and if they ever have a Crucible you will be thankful for it, vs. RUG it is worst because you usually don't have a lot of time to cycle around but it still shrinks Goyf and takes away Lavamancer/Snapcaster fodder, vs. ANT it at least makes Cabal Ritual worse and stops them from comboing via IGG or Past in Flames.
- Batterskull and Huntmaster make the Burn matchup favorable. Both Batterskull and Huntmaster have been performing very well.

[ZaganOstia]

Here is the list I will most likily end up playing in Indy this weekend:

4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dismember
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless (admittedly I've not really tested this yet)
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Grave Titan
---1 of's for GSZ---
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Broodmate Dragon

Lands:
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kitchen Finks

For a long time I was very against adding a third color, but after some serious testing I found that Broodmate Dragon just puts it over the edge. The red lands are just in there to cast the creatures if they happen to end up in your hand, and for the ancient grudge in the board. I've had many question me on dropping a grave titan for a Broodmate. Being able to GSZ into it late game more than makes up for it and the flying is not at all irrelevant either. What I question most it the sideboard, though I am not sure what I want to change in it. Needle had been amazing constantly, and I am also very happy having the grudge over K-grips.

One of the most questionable cards is huntmaster, but I don't really want to take it out. Getting two bodies is nice, and even if it just flips once I am more than happy to take out a Bob, or a Pridemage. Some have been saying you cant get full value out of it since you easily flip it more than once, but like I said, a single flip is still great value. My biggest problem with him is, however, that he is almost always the last of the 4-drops that I grab with GSZ.

Any thoughts on the sideboard, or deck in general?

[Qweerios]

@Tao

I don't think cheap removal makes you any less reliant on an Explorer trigger. Most decks pack as much cheap removal along with even more disruption. The main difference though, is that most decks have a mana curve that caps at 3 CMC and pack the same amount of lands as you do. In the popular decks' situation, cheap removal buys them time in the sense that they can reach their optimal amount of mana to cast everything in their deck because they aren't likely to miss a land drop within the first 3 turns. In the case of Nic Fit, sitting on 3 lands means you can't do jack shit, and the slightest mana disruption leaves you with a bunch of cards you can't play.

I think that if Nic Fit is to have a future, it first has to up its land count to 23-24 to match its mana curve. Equiping the deck with Manlands is basic board-sweeper logic. I also think that any form of 6+ CMC card that cannot be a GSZ target should be dismissed the same way most legacy decks dismiss most 4-drops.

Also, about the whole Timmy vs competitive value debate, I find Baneslayer Angel to be a perfect example. Unless StP becomes a tribal instant, I see no point in playing BsA over Batterskull.

@ZaganOstia

Lose non-gsz singletons and give your deck more consistency.

MB:
-1 Skeletal Scrying (might as well pack a single Pithing Needle for that one time it's going to be useful...)
-1 Titan (Broodmate and Hermit is enough)
-1 Ooze
+1 Top (3rd Top > 2nd Ooze)
+2 Darkblast (very underestimated card that you can use on Explorer and that remains availlable. Great with Top and Witness as well)

You mainboard is supposed to be good against every fair deck. Tweaking your SB for single matchups should be for the ones you cannot win with your mainboard (i.e.: Storm, Dredge, Reanimator, Sneak Show, etc...). You happen to splash Red, so you can easely build a strong SB against all of those matchups.

SB:
-1 Liliana
-1 Finks (Ooze, Finks, and Hunt MB... another Finks won't tilt burn in your favor any more)
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Ancient Grudge (I know you get to use it twice, but 4 GSZ+1 Wicker+3 Pulse+3 Deeds is enough)
-2 Choke (You splash Red, use it...)
+1 Mindbreak
+1 Nihil Spellbomb
+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 REB
+2 Pyroblast

[Qweerios]

Results from CMT with GBw Nic Fit. My list is posted a few pages back:

2-0 Pox

First time I beat pox (I lose to it every week). I had outrageous topdecks in both games. I also opened the first match with a Therapy/Explorer on Liliana and 2 Sinkholes. Game 2 was much closer but I drew into Hermit, Titan, Volrath on an empty board where we were both land flooded.

2-0 GWu Maverick

Epic games, very close both times but a well timed Deed and a clutch Damnation gave me both games. I opened with Therapy + Explorer on the first game and stalled the second at 3 lands for 8+ turns with a pair of Explorers facing a 10/10+ KotR... I am glad he didn't draw a Mom in time (he also mulligan to 5).

2-1 Goblins

I really did 2-0 but I was late to my match (lunch break) and was attributed an instant loss of game 1. The goblin player made lots of mistakes and built his deck on a budget. He met his demise to a Deed followed by an Elspeth Emblem and a Grave Titan.

0-2 GWu Maverick

Same exact list as the player I 2-0'd since they were partners. I lost to a T2 Geist in both games. Explorer was sworded in the first match and my BoP was Submerged twice in the second - Utter defeat. This time around, I was the one to mulligan to 5.

0-2 Team America

I lost to 4 Delvers and a Stifled Deed on game 1. I took 18 points of damage from a Snapcaster after my 2 first fetches were stifled and I was double Hymned. I sat with a Forest and a Swamp in play with 2 StP in hand and a bunch of 3CMC cards in hand until Snap finished me.

0-2 Esper America

I played against a weird deck packing Wasteland, Stifle, Sinkhole, Vindicate, Snapcaster, Bob, Jace, and Riptide Lab. My first 5 basic lands were destroyed in G1, my explorer was sent plowing. I never resolved any spells in both games as I never reached 3 lands.

2-1 Stoneblade

Usual Stoneblade matches, nothing out of the ordinary. Nothing really happened for the first few turns, I lost to Geist and Jace, he lost to Thrun and Grave Titan.

[Koby]

I can't understand how this deck doesn't run a 2nd Ooze. The card does ridiculously unfair things to unfair decks. Even Aggro Loam is running a pair - why is this deck only running one?

[Tao]

Here is the list I will most likily end up playing in Indy this weekend:

4 Green Sun Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dismember
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Garruk Relentless (admittedly I've not really tested this yet)
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Grave Titan
---1 of's for GSZ---
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Broodmate Dragon

Lands:
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Phyrexian Tower

Sideboard:
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
2 Extirpate
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Damnation
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kitchen Finks

For a long time I was very against adding a third color, but after some serious testing I found that Broodmate Dragon just puts it over the edge. The red lands are just in there to cast the creatures if they happen to end up in your hand, and for the ancient grudge in the board. I've had many question me on dropping a grave titan for a Broodmate. Being able to GSZ into it late game more than makes up for it and the flying is not at all irrelevant either. What I question most it the sideboard, though I am not sure what I want to change in it. Needle had been amazing constantly, and I am also very happy having the grudge over K-grips.

One of the most questionable cards is huntmaster, but I don't really want to take it out. Getting two bodies is nice, and even if it just flips once I am more than happy to take out a Bob, or a Pridemage. Some have been saying you cant get full value out of it since you easily flip it more than once, but like I said, a single flip is still great value. My biggest problem with him is, however, that he is almost always the last of the 4-drops that I grab with GSZ.

Any thoughts on the sideboard, or deck in general?

Maindeck:
- Have you ever tested with Punishing Fire? It is a beating! Though I guess you decided to go the Liliana route and those two require different Mana.
- Are you sure about Dismembers with RUG and Burn being 2 of the top decks?
- The only questionable thing about Huntmaster is why you don't play more. I think that with red Mana in the deck Huntmaster of the Fells is a better card than Garruk Relentless in every possible way.
- Extirpate over Surgical Extraction is a mistake imo. Vs. Dredge and Pox you desperately need every Mana and even vs. Reanimator and Intuition (on Show and Tell/Emrakul) I think the speed is more often important than being immune to Force of Will (Daze obv. not being an issue).

Sideboard:
- I don't like Mindbreak Trap. It is only good vs. Storm Combo but dead against the combo decks Reanimator and Show and Tell. Duress is less effective in that particular matchup but still good and you can use them in 5x more matchups.
- I would like to see a second Damnation in the SB over Liliana. It is very good vs. Maverick and even nessecary vs. Death & Taxes (which will imo be seen at the Top tables despite being underplayed) if they put Revoker on Deed and protect it with Mother of Runes.
- I like Red Elemental Blast over Choke. Power vs. flexibility again I guess. Choke is great vs. Blade but Blast is still solid there and if a Delver is beating down on you there is no point in choking it. Unlike Choke it is also good vs. all Combo decks except Belcher.

[Philipp2293]

While I agree that Huntmaster is a house (currently running 3) it turned out that relying on him as the main win condition, while fine in many many MUs makes the Fire-Mirror feel really akward, so I cut the 4th but I'm still not sure what to play in the last slot. Currently it's Thrun, as I can drop him on an empy board without worrying about too much. Might as well replace him with Gigapede, or maybe something completely different (P. Titan + Kessig Wolf Run, or maybe even Avenger of Zendikar, preferably something that ends the game really fast.)

Also, I'm not sure about Lili compared to Diabolic Edict MD or maybe something completely different.

I wonder why Acidic Slime isn't played over Wickerbough Elder? I assume his ability to hit lands in long-grindy games (Groves, Academy Ruins, Volraths Stronghold) has quite some appeal.

On a sidenote I have really weird results over the last weeks. Losses to Merfolk and Affinity while beating Belcher and TES? Still got to finish x-0, but so far I'm 19-5 in games since I'm playing the Fire version.

[arcannys]

I wonder why Acidic Slime isn't played over Wickerbough Elder? I assume his ability to hit lands in long-grindy games (Groves, Academy Ruins, Volraths Stronghold) has quite some appeal.

That's because of the 4/4 body.


I assure you guys that im trying to make huntmaster work with all my heart, but i just cant seem to find anything relevant to do at instant speed that's worth passing the turn to flip huntmaster. Until i find that instant speed thread i'll be playing only 1 as a fine tool to search ratrher than make him my main plan.
I guess Pfires and bolt are fine, but those dont rlly justify passing the turn with 5-7 mana untapped.
Let's see if we can come up with something that's worth skipping your turn for... Equipment are great in limited if you want to flip your werewolfs, but i dont think thats good enough in this deck, since all the good equipment is prety cheap anyway and you'd be leaveing a ton of mana unused regardless.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm not saying the deck isn't competitive. It's on my short-list of 2 to take to GP:Indy. I'm just trying to determine what advantage it has over something else (Maverick in this case) and why I should play one over the other.

From what I can tell Nic Fit is good against:
Maverick
RUG
UW Stoneblade
Random Creature decks

Bad against:
Combo
Burn

If I got the tournament expecting mostly what it is good against, especially Maverick, Nic Fit seems like a good choice. If I'm concerned about Combo and Burn, Nic Fit seems like a worse choice. One issue I have is that I only have 1 Bye, so I'm concerned about losing early to Burn.

This isn't to say that Nic Fit is bad, it just has different strengths. So, maybe more to the point, do you think that Indy will have a meta favorable to Nic Fit? I'm concerned about it.

I think you hit the matchups about spot-on, and I'm pretty much in the same boat as far as deciding what to play. I think I'll probably go with Nic Fit because I'm not a good player and I'm sure everyone has tested the shit out of the Maverick matchup. Also Maverick mirrors all day sounds like no fun.

[ZaganOstia]

I assure you guys that im trying to make huntmaster work with all my heart, but i just cant seem to find anything relevant to do at instant speed that's worth passing the turn to flip huntmaster. Until i find that instant speed thread i'll be playing only 1 as a fine tool to search ratrher than make him my main plan.
I guess Pfires and bolt are fine, but those dont rlly justify passing the turn with 5-7 mana untapped.
Let's see if we can come up with something that's worth skipping your turn for... Equipment are great in limited if you want to flip your werewolfs, but i dont think thats good enough in this deck, since all the good equipment is prety cheap anyway and you'd be leaveing a ton of mana unused regardless.

Honestly, I don't think you need to worry about running more instants because of him. Late game, there will be times when you drop him and you wont draw into spells, causing him to flip. Also, it can force the opponent to play out spells they wouldn't have otherwise. While I understand you are using this to justify not running more than one of him (I only run one myself), I think that the options he gives you, and forces from your opponent give him more value.