[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[Mark Sun]

I board out -4 Force of Will, -3 Nimble Mongoose vs. +4 Submerge, +1 Mind Harness, +2 Krosan Grip. I don't think you want to board out cantrips almost ever, unless you're boarding in the Tops from the sideboard. This helps you keep your deck velocity high so you can actually find your sideboard cards. I like Krosan Grips here because you will lose to Equipment if you can't answer them; they're pretty threat dense.

[CalebD]

Re: Stifle. Until people start playing mono colored decks without activated or triggered abilities, stifle will be a stronger card in the archetype. Atm, Mongooses are the best threat vs the field, and stifle answers the most popular sweepers (EE, Deed) as well as time walking the opponent so the extra turn to get thresh vs flip a delver doesn't matter.

It also protects the deck's manabase, which is crucial in a deck with 6 mana producing lands.

Despite this, almost all of my friends that were on Thresh played pierces and snares, and I didn't see another set of stifles until I got into the top eight.

Re: Ooze. Talking about it in my article this week. It was consistently goyf #3, which means it sucked. I boarded out my two drop critters every chance I got.

Re: Spell Snare. I didn't like the card going into the tournament because it's so situational, but obv kenny did fine with them. Shrug.

For the record, "___ is a good player so he can get away with running crap" is a bad argument. Just because you don't see the line that wins doesn't mean you don't have the right tools for the job, and a player can't do well unless he both has the tools and uses them correctly.

[I am the brainwasher]

I tried out playing without Stifle once in a tourney after a bit of test and the first thing I did after the last round was pulling out my cards instantly and switched it back.
Playing against Nic Fit and Dredge felt like beeing a virgin on a pirate ship, plus that disgusting feeling of drawing a whole lot of awkward/risky hands, and I am not even talking about the inability of cutting the opponent off of mana.

[lordofthepit]

I tried out playing without Stifle once in a tourney after a bit of test and the first thing I did after the last round was pulling out my cards instantly and switched it back.
Playing against Nic Fit and Dredge felt like beeing a virgin on a pirate ship, plus that disgusting feeling of drawing a whole lot of awkward/risky hands, and I am not even talking about the inability of cutting the opponent off of mana.

Stifling an Explorer trigger (especially in this deck that runs 0 basics and relies on mana denial to advance its tempo plan) or a Narcomoeba/Bridge trigger isn't the worst.

Stifle doesn't have great value in those matchups, but it's by no means a dead card. I'd certainly rather have that than Spell Snare, for instance.

[Moosedog]

Stifling an Explorer trigger (especially in this deck that runs 0 basics and relies on mana denial to advance its tempo plan) or a Narcomoeba/Bridge trigger isn't the worst.

Stifle doesn't have great value in those matchups, but it's by no means a dead card. I'd certainly rather have that than Spell Snare, for instance.

What exactly are you snaring in the dredge match?

[lordofthepit]

What exactly are you snaring in the dredge match?

Nothing. Which is why I don't want Spell Snare.

[lordofthepit]

Re: Ooze. Talking about it in my article this week. It was consistently goyf #3, which means it sucked. I boarded out my two drop critters every chance I got.

I'm surprised you didn't like Goyf in this deck. I agree that Delver and Nimble Mongoose are better in RUG Tempo, but Goyf is clearly the best of the rest (and is the trump card in the mirror).

What was your opinion on Snapcaster Mage? Not a big fan of him in a deck with 14 "real" lands.

[Einherjer]

What do you people normally board out when bringing in a CB-Package vs Stoneblade? Force and F//I?

Greetings

[Dyvith]

So I'm assuming that people noticed that both of the RUG Delver decks that top 8ed the GP ran a countertop board. Why not just main deck this package? This was something I spent a lot of time thinking about, and I came up with this conclusion for a deck list:

4 Mongoose
4 Delver
4 Goyf

4 Force
4 Daze
3 Counter Balance

4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
2 S.D.Top

4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt

2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland

SB:

2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Gruge
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Submerge

While this is just a rough sketch, do we really need to run CB/Top in the board? Why not in the main

[Mark Sun]

I honestly wouldn't mind that. When I looked at the Top 10 deck data from The Council in preparation for the GP, I got this:



Counterbalance is good against the mirror, UW, Reanimator, Burn, and Storm. The only thing that the inclusion of the Counterbalance package would hurt is the matchup against the GWx Knight decks, and the other decks within the Tier decks up above are still a small enough portion of the metagame to focus too much attention to. With maindeck Counterbalance, we're likely throwing the GWx Knight deck matchup away even more Game 1. Definitely worth looking into, however. 3/3 split is mandatory of Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance, and likely 19 Lands.

[JJ-JKidd]

If you run the 3-3 cbtop sb, is the inclusion of a 3cc necessary? Its pretty tight if you ask me.

[Awaclus]

If you run the 3-3 cbtop sb, is the inclusion of a 3cc necessary? Its pretty tight if you ask me.

I don't think it is. You can't afford to cut enough cards to be able to rely on Counterbalance countering the 3cc cards anyway, and you can always use the Force when you can't counter something with 'balance.

[JJ_JKidd]

I don't think it is. You can't afford to cut enough cards to be able to rely on Counterbalance countering the 3cc cards anyway, and you can always use the Force when you can't counter something with 'balance.

I think I might have to try 3 Macabres in the SB along with 2 Surgicals (as my 'yard hate) precisely because Reanimator is on the comeback, or so. Its a 3cc (for 'Balance) anyway but I dont know if its an auto side-in in KoTR decks.

[catmint]

I started testing the CB/top build now that everyone seems to agree it is the best option. From my little experience it is very strong against the decks you listed morbid though slow against reanimator. I think here I rather have Pierces.

However I do have some issues/questions:

Where are your other priorities concerning SB?
lets assume the following are set:
- 5 slots for CB/Top
- 3-4 slots for maverick/nick fit/mirror: Submerge/mind harness

- How do you split the remaining 6-7 slots between GY hate, Pyroblast and ancient grudge? Running only 2-3 pyroblast feels just wrong (altough there is lingering souls) and with less than 4 GY hate I don't think Dredge is winnable. When I look at the SB from the decks I am netdecking I feel they just give up on one end or the other...

Speller Pierce (vs. Stifle)
I played with and without Stifle maindeck and felt both options had a lot of merit. What I miss most playing with CB/Top are the pierces for the interactions before a CB hits the table. What are your conclusions on this question and is it influenced by the CB/TOP question? Did anyone try to run some mixed number of daze/pierce/snare?

SD.top in general
I feel the card is just not made for a 18-19 land deck running 8 cantrips. Very often I rather cast my cantrips before investing 2 mana (and likely a turn) to check my top 3. So it will sit in my hand for some time. Do you side out some Ponders and how do you value the card without counterbalance (which will happen frequently).

Thanks for the input

[Mark Sun]

<Pressing issues for RUG Delver's development>

I'm already playing Spell Pierce, so against Reanimator having both CB/Top and Spell Pierce is incredibly strong. For the record, I play the Reanimator deck as the control deck. I like to assign Reanimator's fundamental turn at t2, because with the assistance of a cantrip, they are very likely to have a dump effect. If the dump effect resolves, then 10 reanimation effects are turned on and RUG is very likely to lose. I want to stop the initial attempt if I can, which Spell Pierce does, and Counterbalance outlasts them.

Priorities concerning SB:

The way I have it set up right now, the sideboard is most concerned about the Top 3 decks. 5 Counterbalance package slots (for UW and the Mirror), 2 Artifact hate (for UW and Maverick), 5 Green creature hate (the Mirror and Maverick, although the Mind Harness doesn't come in against the mirror). The remaining three slots I have to devote the GY hate of some type. I've heard arguments for Surgical Extraction or Tormod's Crypt, and I'm still up in the air about it. The reason I have not been playing REB/Pyroblast is for a couple of reasons:

-UW shifts to playing more Elspeth, Knight-Errant, which REB doesn't answer. Spell Pierce does this well, and has splash damage in protecting your spells in the early game. REB inherently doesn't kill Stoneforge Mystic either.
- It's not really that useful in the mirror, although I'm sure it has its applications. I just feel like it's a weak topdeck, and doesn't answer the opposing Tarmogoyf issue, which you really need to lean on your own + burn, if it comes down to that.

Of course, this is under the assumption that I'm walking into a metagame where I'm likely to face UW, RUG, or Maverick multiple times on the day. If at any time the balance between these decks shift, I would have to reconsider my boarding strategies.


Stifle vs. Spell Pierce:

I was playing a 3/3/2 split of Spell Pierce, Daze, and Spell Snare and feeling rather comfortable with it. I will admit, I was a little adamant in fully supporting Spell Pierce over Stifle, though. This is something I want to think about more and address when I have better results. Spell Pierce, to me, was a card that took away some of RUG's pressing issues of mediocre topdecks and the t1 conumdrum of "threat or hold up mana for Stifle?" Having Spell Pierce and applications in the early, mid, and late game, Brainstorm's power level was increased a bit in the deck by drawing into less do-nothings. Having Spell Pierce instead of Stifle took away a crappy situation on t1, and allowed you to immediately assume your role as an aggressor by playing out the threat, not gambling and holding up mana for Stifle (which was NOT a guaranteed blowout if your opponent didn't fetch).

I forgot, however, that Stifle interacts pretty well against cards like Pernicious Deed and Engineered Explosives, which Spell Pierce may not be able to at times. Those cards haven't been seeing the play that they deserve, but it will be much more difficult to combat them once they do with only Spell Pierce.


Sensei's Divining Top:

I view this card as the 9th cantrip (more like the 8.5th). For this deck I feel like with 18-19 lands, you need to maintain at least 7-8 cantrips so that your deck velocity is high enough for you to operate. There are some situations where I can advocate going to 7, but for the most part, I do a double check to make sure there at least 8. For example, if I'm boarding out the Counterbalance package, I'm likely to bring out 1 Ponder, because I see the Sensei's Divining Tops as 0.5 cantrips each. Losing deck velocity is a huge issue, so I make sure to never drop too low.

As I stated earlier though, if there are any shifts in the metagame that would cause the Counterbalance package to be unplayable or unprofitable to play (for example, if Maverick took over the world tomorrow), those slots would be the first out in the sideboard.

[Einherjer]

When we play 1 Top in main Counterbalance would cost 5 slots.... as stated before 4 slots wont be necessarily enough for Dredge... so why not play something radical like this:

3 CB
2 SDT
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge

?

[Mark Sun]

My only fear of playing a card that isn't castable like Leyline of the Void is that it won't be in your opener 60% of the time, and is actually dead if you wind up drawing it. If you hit it, good for you and your chances of winning that game have astronomically increased, but if you don't, assuming you drew 7 in your opener, 4/53 remaining cards in your deck are completely dead.

Cards like Crypt and Surgical are cards that we sacrifice Leyline's power to play, but have an effect on the game at more than just the beginning of it. I can get behind moving up to 4 Crypt, for example, though.

[Vandalize]

It's funny the way Canadian Thresh (or RUG Tempo, for this forum) is always in the same loop of design and deckbuilding.

This deck will slowly shift towards Counterbalance + Top, until they tweak their deck into the complete action of the soft lock. I won't be surprised if someone start cutting Mongooses for 3-3 CBTop split, or even some burn.

And when this happens, it will start losing to AEther Vial and Dredge decks again (the first are pretty low on popularity nowdays). And it's fun because most of us have been there, and done that.

I'm not flaming or anything. I just think this deck needs to shift into something new and fresh, and Counterbalance + Top doesn't acually help against the matchups this deck has problems with (namely GWx Maverick and other Knight.dec). CounterTop is good versus Storm and Burn (being Storm a good matchup, and Burn a decent one?).

That being said, have you guys tested Terravore (as 2-of in sideboard) against GWx Maverick? This deck plays a good amount of fetches, and along with the mana-denial primary strategy, that guy can come out in mid-late game and just trample the brains off those Knights.

[Awaclus]

CounterTop is good versus Storm and Burn (being Storm a good matchup, and Burn a decent one?).

I believe Burn is a bad matchup.

[catmint]

I also believe Burn is unfavourable if the opponent is decent.

Concerning the combo matchup. Being used to heavy discard it is amazing how vulnerable you are at times. Lost 2:0 against DDFT running 7 chant effects main at my local tourney last week. Still combo is favourable in general, but it is not a walk in the park like playing BUG. CB is very welcome addition in RUG.