Yes, unfortunately Tony and Koby had to play each other in the top 8. And Tony came out ahead.Originally Posted by sdematt
Grats to both! Way to represent LA.
Has Flame Jab been discussed? I ask because I just saw that Aggro Loam won a Modern GP. I know Modern is different than Legacy, but there are alot of targets for Flame Jab early, it can be dredged into with no drawback, and it's sort of like a Seismic Assault, albeit not quite as good, but still.
The Modern list was also running 4 Raven's Crime, which also doesn't seem like a bad idea, all things considered.
Raven's Crime is not that good because black is a tertiary color even in lists stretching to BB for Liliana (who is better, imo). In order to make it work well, you really want Urborg, and that card is very weak in this deck. Aside from the mana issues, Crime is pretty durdly; making the opponent choose and discard a card or two per turn for BB (with a likely 1G on top of it) is just not where you want to be most of the time.
As for Flame Jab, Lightning Bolt is just better. It's better in the early game because it kills more and does so at instant-speed, and Assault is better than both in the late-game (Jab just sits in your yard then). I would say Assault is still better in the mid-game because it's free to activate once you cast it, whereas Jab will still be RR and two lands for the same amount of damage.
Punishing Fires is much better than Flame Jab as well. It's easier on your mana and the damage output it roughly the same early on.
Flame Jab is better is need to kill multiple small dudes, like Nobles, Thalia, etc. I was actually JUST going to ask if it'd been considered as a 1-of at all, as either Bolt #4 or #5. It also helps you gun down Jace in case you can't get Assault up.
-Matt
Eh.
I'm trying to think of board states right now where one or more of the following wouldn't just be better:
Assault
Fires
Pyroclasm
Dreams
Lavamancer
There aren't a lot. I'm not sure that a card having more utility is necessarily a justification for running it over a more powerful but situational card, but that's just me.
Anyway, I think the time you'd want Flame Jab is early in the game, when the opponent has fast development because of multiple ramp spells, and you can't afford to fall behind on lands. Even then, Pyroclasm might be better just because it also kills Mystics and various other small-ish dudes for one card and the ability to retrace Flame Jab late is just not really relevant at all. Particularly in the mid- to late-game, it's probably going to cost you RRRG1 for three damage versus 2RRR for 3-4 damage from Fires or some amount of green and colorless for Assault.
I'm not really convinced. Maybe if you run Burning Wish? But I'm not sure what Wish target you'd take out for it.
Would Zombie Infestation ever be considered in a list that did not run red?
Pros: makes a 2/2 zombie that can swing every turn
can chump block
runs off of dark confidant or loam
easier to cast
turns loam into a weapon without red
Cons:can't "combo kill"
doesn't provide reach over board stalls
doesn't insta-gib planeswalkers
can be spell snared
doesn't provide board control
It seems like a passable solution that pays homage to the old CAL lists that ran black.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
If you're not in red, you probably shouldn't be running Life from the Loam. The card just does not do enough then, and Zombie Infestation (snerk) does not make up for losing Assault.
Could be a fun addition though, just to try
-Matt
Have at it, then. The card does not even seem worth trying to me.Could be a fun addition though, just to try
-Matt
Oh, I'm not actually going to try it, just in theory, fun may be had.
I read the report from SCG for that guy that ran Loam and won, but he was playing a slightly awful build. My question is, how many of you are running Punishing Fires?
-Matt
Wait, what report and what build?
Nathan Zamora's 1st Place deck from SCG: Dallas/FTW
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
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My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Ah, okay.
Well, his build has a couple of interesting things going for it:
- Terravore: great against aggro decks because of trample and almost always being bigger than Knight. I've been wondering about swapping some number of Crushers to some number of Terravores for a while.
- GSZ: I've been wondering about this card as well. GSZ for zero gets Dryad Arbor, as a sort of substitute Mox Diamond (although he doesn't run Arbor). It helps to find Oozes even when you run low numbers. I don't think you want to load up on targets a la Maverick, but one or two seemed worth exploring.
- Fires: Seems not bad as early game control. If you're cutting down on Seismics I think it helps to have Fires as a bridge between Bolt and Assault in terms of creature control.
I don't particularly like Edict or IoK, though I can respect both.
I am writing an article on Aggro Loam. A bit of analysis, and I explain some things, and oscillate between 3 decks, Nathan's winning one, Tony's deck from Sacramento and my pile from Indy.
I think that we underestimate how good Nathan's deck is. I like IoK's, and I am going to make a very weird prediction.
Cutting down a few cards in the SB, and adding 6-7 discard could be a viable way of going forward, actually.
The rest of the SB should be Leylines, Dreams and Grips/Grudges.
Um, meh. I'm not so sure discard is the way to go, to be honest.
Assault is what makes this deck. A resolved Assault wins, hands down. You can race pretty much anything.
-Matt
Exactly, and discard makes sure Assault resolves. I'm all aboard the discard train for Jund Aggro Loam, despite popular opinion.Um, meh. I'm not so sure discard is the way to go, to be honest.
Assault is what makes this deck. A resolved Assault wins, hands down. You can race pretty much anything.
I'm also really digging the Modern list that won the GP. He ran multiple Raven's Crime's maindeck, which I liked. I also really like Flame Jab as the bridge between Bolt and Assault, since it can be a mini-Assault with Loam going when you can't find or can't resolve an Assault.
Punishing Fires is also a bridge between Bolt and Assault, and it is generally better in terms of damage output versus resource input. For one thing, it's Loam-independent, while Flame Jab and Assault aren't. It's also slightly easier on your mana because it requires less red per point of damage than Flame Jab.
If you want discard, Raven's Crime is not the way to go about it: targeted spells like IoK, Thoughtseize, and Duress are. Raven's Crime runs into a huge number of issues in Legacy:
- You need to build your manabase to cater to it. Crime is black-intense in a deck that does not normally need more than one or two black sources per game. You could leave the mana as-is and just try to milk what black sources you have to cast Crime repeatedly, but that runs into a couple of problems: first, it takes too long to get problem cards out of the opponent's hand, assuming their hands aren't nearly empty when you start; second, it clashes with how you're prioritizing fetching in the early game because you want R and G early, not B, so you either have to go for duals and open yourself up to tempo hits off of Wasteland or more damage from PoP.
- It's not useful in many matchups. Tempo decks tend to empty their hands pretty quickly, as do midrange-y and fast aggro decks. You could argue that Raven's Crime could be used to put them into topdeck mode (more on that in a bit), but you honestly have better cards to punish them for overextending (Assault, Dreams, Lavamancer, Perish). It gets better the more your opponent wants to keep cards in hand, which is not many of the best decks right now.
- It's a card you want to see early, but you don't want to see in multiples. You want to see it early because then you're more likely to preempt the casting of cards that are bad for you, but extra copies of the card are actual blanks. This is especially true in a format where the most common graveyard hate spell out of the sideboard is Surgical Extraction; when it was Crypt or Relic, you were okay with seeing a second Crime because then you'd still have it if they hit your yard.
- It requires a land discard per subsequent casting, which imposes a high cost in terms of both time and resource input. Getting three cards from the opponent requires BBB and two lands. If you are casting this in the midgame, two lands is probably what you can expect to have barring an active Loam. With Loam, the cost for three cards goes up to 1GBBB, which is Fugue territory, and no one is arguing that card is good. You can argue that you can split the cost over subsequent turns, but this isn't good either: the fact that your opponent chooses what to discard means he has more opportunities to cast cards that hurt you the longer you take to get rid of his hand.
- A resolved and active JTMS, Top, or Library weaken discard significantly. All of these allow the opponent to hide stuff they need on top of their libraries, which is part of the reason why discard is generally weaker than counters. Top doesn't see as much play as it used to, but many of the more controlly blue decks (the ones against which Crime is at its best) have JTMS, and some G/x aggro decks will run Libraries. All of these cards increase the chances of the opponent topdecking something that hurts you.
- Snapcaster Mage reduces the pain of losing cards to discard. Normally you want discard because, once your opponent's spells are in the graveyard, they're basically gone forever and you no longer have to worry about them. Snapcaster being in the format (and most blue decks) increases the number of "bad" topdecks for you provided you have already Crimed a spell you didn't want to see.
If you want discard, you want to make sure you have control over what you're hitting. Crime is okay if you can completely get rid of their hand, but that usually requires that they not have many cards in hand to begin with. The fact that you can't just straight-up Mind Twist them with it without having a hand full of land makes it much worse.
Yea I thought about cutting assault, and it was a mistake. Tony and myself both somehow reduced it to two, and seems ok.
Also, Terravore is the real deal. Best between him, Crusher or Goyf.
Yeah, Assault at two feels right if you have support. Assault being active basically signals that the game is over, but in the midgame it's clunky because you don't have enough mana to Loam as much as you need to to murder everything with it.
Has anyone tried IoK recently? I've been thinking about it in that guy's list and I'm wondering how good it is main. What do you prioritize taking in each matchup? Assuming you only ever draw into 1-2 of them, how much impact does it have on average? The cards I would want to hit - planeswalkers or Batterskull, for example - can't be taken with IoK; OTOH, it hits a lot of stuff that your removal already hits. Is it just to increase "removal" density by having a card that may often hit a creature but doesn't have to?
I think the 1cc discard spells are actually pretty good. They fit into your curve well and allows you to protect your broken plays. I've also been playing the punishing fire build with 2 Thoughtseize, 2 iok and 2 Dismember. I'm not a fan of edict, the deck has too many 2 drops. It's either Dismember or ghastly demise for me.
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