All B/R update speculation.

[bruizar]

Seriously though, it's not hard to just run artifact hate and simply blow up the Batterskull/sword/jitte. It's because people dislike playing with conditional cards that Stoneforge Mystic is good at all. People seem to forget that the strength of Brainstorm is that it gives you a way to ship those situational cards and exchange them for relevant ones.

Krosan Grip, Ancient Grudge, Disenchant, Seal of Cleansing/Primordium, Nature's Claim and a whole bunch of other cards are great answers to equipment. Krosan Grip in particular is noteworthy in the case you run into a Batterskull with 3 mana untapped. Also, Trygon Predator is a very underplayed card.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Nothing needs to be banned in current Legacy and nothing should be banned in current Legacy. If you disagree with this statement it just goes to show why you aren't given the authority to make such decisions.

[I am the brainwasher]

Nothing needs to be banned in current Legacy and nothing should be banned in current Legacy. If you disagree with this statement it just goes to show why you aren't given the authority to make such decisions.

Says who?
Estimating that your own oppinion on deciding who's worthy to take a word on that whole thing is more competent than someone elses look at the current Legacy-format is a hilarious misjudgement.

In general: I do agree upon the fact that Maverick is not the deck that requires SFM to be a top contender, but besides that narrow look on the different styles of that single archetype, it is very hard to negate the fact that SFM completely messed up a healthy coexistence of all sort of decks by outclassing tons of decks that mainly used the red zone as a winning strategy.
Yes, SFM is not broken, and there are good strategies against, but since we are talking about keeping the meta healthy via bannings I strongly feel that the card will be banned at some point.

[(nameless one)]

Maybe it's time to unban a couple things in the format to balance things out.

Think about it, Esperblade dominated the SCG invitationals while Maverick dominated the Open. It's not like they're running te same shell.

Maybe it's time to let cards like Mystical Tutor back. Hell, even Land Tax, Earthcraft or even Mind Twist. Even Memory Jar!

There's nothing wrong with a bunch of fair cards dominating together.

[xfxf]

I agree with Mystical Tutor. Combo is non-existent. There are enough non-blue hosers that combo needs to fight through already, it could use a little boost.

[Sloshthedark]

ban GSZ =) too much consistency, an all-around answer for Maverick... or better - unban Survival and Mystical tutor, 1st is now safe 2nd could require banning in Reanimator, but worth the try

[Gheizen64]

I agree with Mystical Tutor. Combo is non-existent. There are enough non-blue hosers that combo needs to fight through already, it could use a little boost.

Better unban Bargain, at least it's a combo that is naturally better against non-red based aggro decks, meaning it shit on maverick while being slightly worse than Hive Mind against things like burn (who is now a DTB).

No but seriously, are we saying the format is unhealty the moment a T8 isn't dominated by blue? Esperblade won the GP 2 weeks ago and that T8 was almost all blue. Burn is a DTB. The meta is clearly in a moment where it's shifting a bit, give it time.

[I am the brainwasher]

I am quite unsure how much Reanimator and Spiral-Tide would increase in their powerlevel, but my gut-feeling says that this is not something that would make the meta more likeley. Making blue more dominant is something everyone is not interested right now.
I think that there will be decent (playable) Aggro-ish cards in the next sets, that let's people move in this direction and pushes away some ammount of the existing midrange/late-game oriented decks.
I miss the clear cornerstones of control/aggro/combo right now, because the tier decks somewhat overlap within these and dedicated aggro-decks that don't fold to StP, SFM->Batterskull, Snapcaster->StP, infinite guys to carry equipments (or better banning SFM) would lead into a meta where real control decks would actually be playable.

[bruizar]

I think SFM is fine. If SFM needs a treatment, I'd strongly urge for the banning of Batterskull instead. We already lost Survival of the Fittest even though the inclusion of Vengevine was what made it an omnipresent force.

[wcm8]

Rather than Mystical Tutor, I think Vampiric Tutor should be a card to consider unbanning.

Why? Obviously Mystical Tutor is a card that is going to get shoved back into the pre-existing combo decks, increasing their power level to the point where we could go back to a healthy aggro/combo/control metagame (not saying we aren't there now). However, Mystical is a) blue, b) narrower in its application, and c) does not cost any life.

Vampiric Tutor would take the same slot, but would have some obvious advantages for the format. It could allow other, non-spell based combo decks to be more viable (e.g. Dark Depths) or simply fit into a mid-range control deck as a way to tutor for an answer card (e.g.: I could see it fitting into a deck like Nic Fit or other such non-blue decks as a way to compensate for not running Ponder/Brainstorm). It not being blue and costing 2 life *is* relevant (e.g. thats 2 cards for Ad Nauseam, and it can't pitch to FoW in Reanimator).

The card is somewhat comparable to GSZ in that it increases consistency in finding threats/answers, except that for the expense of instant speed and one mana, you still have to draw the target and cast it naturally. I am well aware that the card is busted in comparison, but the decks that would beat Vampiric Tutor decks would likely die to the 'fair' decks that play GSZ/SFM.

There are plenty of blue-based como decks that would definitely want to play it, but aren't currently playing black. Splashing for a second or third color would increase their susceptibility to Stifle, Wasteland, and possibly just inherent mana screw. So High Tide/Hive Mind/Show and Tell might want to consider playing it, but doing so increases the risk of a blowout.

There have been plenty of cards recently printed that could hose the card if it became too dominant. Spell Pierce exists, which means a player that aggressively casts a t1 Tutor blindly could get blown out when they try to actually play their target. Other cards like Thought Scour could simply negate the card. Counterbalance could return as a viable strategy to prey upon decks abusing it (which would in turn get stomped on by GSZ decks).

I feel that given that "fair" tutors like GSZ, Knight of the Reliquary, and Stoneforge Mystic are allowed in the format, Vampiric Tutor should/could also be allowed. Even with the possibility of Vampiric Tutor enabling combo decks, this still isn't Vintage where it would be as easy to win on turn 2. There is no Ancestral Recall, Tinker, Fastbond/Gush, etc. I may be completely off-base here, but I think Vampiric Tutor could bring back old dead strategies, enable new ones, and lead to healthier more varied format.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Ban SFM? Ban GSZ?

LOL, man this format is screwed, everyone would rather play Modern and they just haven't realized it yet.

Cards don't need to be banned when they are strong but clearly not dominant.

You guys complain about these cards making other strategies weaker, but without them you would just be complaining about those other strategies and saying we need to ban Delver or w/e.

Control and midrange hadn't been a part of the format for years. Now they're back and people want to ban SFM and GSZ because they make Zoo suck. Get in line. Aggro is still playable now just not so much the standard Zoo builds. Midrange and Control are back and people already want to flip the switch back to Aggro/Tempo/Combo? Just because aggro isn't as good doesn't mean we need to ban stuff to make control ass again. I'm sorry the format no longer lives and dies by the rule "4+ mana cards must win the game when dropped or they are not playable." As fun as it was dying to Wild Nacatl, Goyf, Burn spell x 3 I'm not sad to see the format slow down a little and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The threat of Batterskull or accelerate into turn 2 GSZ for Gaddok Teeg has narrowed the range of fast aggro decks and made green not auto-scoop to combo. At the same time it's opened up the format to a lot of slower deck types that had no change before. You may not like it, but I prefer the slightly slower pace over 6+ years of control meaning "pretend Counterbalance+Jace is viable."

Also lol @ unban Vamp Tutor. Dude you trollin'.

[wcm8]

Also lol @ unban Vamp Tutor. Dude you trollin'.

I am just speculating about what impact it would have on the format. I'm not sure there is anything existing now that would make it more broken than it was when Mystical was in the format. I guess Reanimator now has Jin-Gitaxias?

Mystical Tutor was banned because of the supposed "gentleman's agreement". As Legacy has moved away from being a more casual format to an accepted competitive one, I'm not sure why this reasoning should hold up. I don't have statistical backing to reference, but I don't think Mystical Tutor decks were completely dominating the format while the card was legal. [Aside from Flash-era Legacy, but Flash was rightfully banned]

edit: link to article: http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...tg/daily/ld/96

If you read this article today, and see how far the format has come since then, the reasoning for the ban seems pretty weak. " The decks were just so strong that opponents not set up in their maindecks or that didn't sideboard heavily against us couldn't compete."

ORLY?? Kind of like Dredge? Or Hive Mind? Or even against MAVERICK? You can't compete in this format devoid of consideration for the decks you face. The argument that non-blue decks could no longer compete is gradually getting weaker and weaker, as G/W continues to get more and more ridiculous hate-bears.

[xfxf]

The best argument for unbanning Mystical Tutor can be the amount of counterspells being played and the amount of combo being successful. The most "blue" deck, Stoneblade, started transforming into it's esper form with minimal counterspells, Maverick is more widespread than anything else yet combo is not doing well. If blue were everywhere we could say it's not a good meta for combo. But currently Maverick builds are more popular yet combo can't get a strong standing.

[(nameless one)]

I actually want Memory Jar for more combo. Maybe we'll see more Megrim Jar decks and consistent MUD decks :P

[KevinTrudeau]

Nothing needs to be banned in current Legacy and nothing should be banned in current Legacy. If you disagree with this statement it just goes to show why you aren't given the authority to make such decisions.

[Koby]

Thalia, Guardian of Tharaben is one of Tom LaPille's last trolls in his last designed set. This should be evident how much he wants Legacy to be Creatures & Combat.

[joemauer]

Time to nerf blue again. Maybe banning brain.... Hey wait a minute we want to nerf green & white, not blue!

[Anusien]

Clearly we should just ban Force of Will, Gaddock Teeg, and Thalia. What everyone seems to want is more combo.

I have no idea why everyone plays durdley mid-range decks in that case.

[Fade]

It's completely ridiculous to even have all this talk about a banning just from one tournament. Esper Stoneblade won the GP so of course there is going to be an influx of that deck. GW has a good matchup against it and dominated one SCG taking up 6 slots in the top 8. I'm sure next weekend that people will gear their decks toward beating Maverick (anyone bought and loyal retainers?) instead of just jumping on the bandwagon and playing the deck that won the GP.

[Koby]

ZOMG!1 Deck does well in one tournamentz! Quick nuke it from orbit before we're slaves to the <last week's deck> overlord!

This is becoming Legacy's version of the Water Cooler discussion about last night's basketball game.