What's your decklist like? Burn is never a matchup I'd take lightly, but it usually doesn't give me that much trouble.Originally Posted by ivanpei
In my limited experience against burn (maybe someone else can back me up, or correct me), the key is to untap with a Batterskull. If you can do that, you have a good chance of winning.
The problem is that the fastest we can untap with a Batterskull is T2 SFM, somehow keep her alive (FoW?), T3 cheat out Batterskull, T4 untap. Burn can often kill you before then, and I don't know what other outs we have other than netting those particular cards.
It's definitely an adrenaline rush if you can make the comeback, though.
I played this list:
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Stp
2 Path
4 Sfm
4 Snapcaster
2 Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Jace
1 Elspeth
4 Tundra
4 Flooded
4 Scalding
1 Arid mesa
2 Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
4 Islands
1 Karakas
Sb:
4 Surgical
4 Spell pierce
2 Wrath
2 Path
2 Disenchant
1 Crucible
I played uw because I wanted a stable manabase. I was expecting alot of budget decks but apparently plenty of tier 1 turned up as well. At the last big event I was screwed by wastelands and blood moons. However the stable manabase paid off against the rug Delver decks I played against. The esper mu didn't seem that bad though g1 is very hard. It is very very hard to attack with an equipped creatures against burn. All our dudes die to a single bolt in response to equip. Some dedicated hate is required to have any chance against burn.
With that very solid list, I don't think burn should be a big problem. Thing is, they can't beat an active Batterskull. Any hand with a Mystic is probably good enough. If you play Mystic T3 or so, even without backup, if they have to use a burn spell on the Mystic, you will live longer, so hard-casting Batterskull T5 shouldn't be a problem. Once that is done, the game should be over. Standard things to consider would normally be just to save your Snares for Price of Progress, or play around it by fetching Basics whenever possible, don't get blown out by a timely Fireblast etc. It also depends on their build, but I don't think neither Hellspark Elemental nor Figure of Destiny do a lot against us - they just make our StoP better.
Postboard, things might get a little tougher if they have Smash to Smithereens. But again, a Mystic on T3 with either Pierce or Snare or Force backup should do it most of the time. You can even board in Disenchant to fight Sulfuric Vortex (which really p0wns us), or just save a Force/Pierce for it.
On top of that, at least in my experience, most burn Players are not very good. Maybe that's because good players tend to play more interactive / complex decks, don't know. But for instance, the plan to just ignore SFM and burn everything to the face can't realistically work (and I've seen that a lot lately).
With that list you can probably board out -2 Clique, -1 Elspeth, -1 Jace, -1 Jitte, -1 Wasteland and go +4 Pierce, +2 PtE. If you're feeling frisky, you can drop another Waste for a Surgical or Disenchant (but realistically they should never land Sulfuric Vortex through all the Pierces/FoW). With 4 Pierces and 8 swords effects, you should be able to handle anything they throw, not even counting Snapcaster.
Basically, your gameplan is Batterskull. I wouldn't tap out to play SFM unless I had FoW backup. Not necessarily for protecting the SFM, but mostly to make sure they don't do silly things like Bolt, Bolt, Fireblast or drop a Sulfuric Vortex. They shouldn't be able to kill you before t4/5 through all the countermagic and one swing with Batterskull usually ends the game.
Your backup plan is grinding them out by answering 4 or so of their heavy hitters (Goblin Guide, Hellspark, Vortex, Fireblast, Price) and then dropping a Jace and Fatesealing them out of the game. With no way to gain card advantage, a Spell Pierce on Fireblast or a Snapcaster for just about anything is GG on it's own. Start with Fateseal to get out of Bolt range, then switch to Brainstorm for a while to rebuild your counters, then (fate)seal the deal. ;)
REB is only a problem when it counters one of your counterspells because that probably means they are trying to force through lethal. You don't really care if they want to waste it to blow up Jace or a Snapcaster, etc. (unless you're swimming in counters and they are in topdeck mode)
I can see why Smash to Smithereens would be popular to a burn player, but I think the better choice for them is Shattering Spree, which is a bit harder for us to deal with (not snare-able, and they can replicate it to get around pierces, counters).
That is, for instance, the artifact hate that Anthony Phaneuf was boarding in his burn deck in SCG: Memphis.
Beautiful list - resembles what I'd be running (except -1 Snare + 1 Geist).
Even with three Snares there are plenty of games when I have Snares sitting in my hand forever. What's your experience with the full playset?
Will you keep that Crucible in the SB? I kind of feel it's not necessary.
Edit: "Minor suggestion"
-2 Tarn
+1 Delta
+1 Rainforest
(due to Extirpate effects)
I haven't had much experience with Geist, from my limited testing, it's a very good card in the Mirror of when you are trying to push damage. It's main advantage is taking down walkers like Jace/Elspeth because they can't kill it/bounce it. However, it is also very vulnerable to a flashed Snapcaster (even worse into a flashed brainstorm). I find that it does improve the control MU, but I'd run lingering souls if I wanted to beat the control mirror.
Geist is bad against aggro and so-so against combo. I highly doubt I'd tap out against combo for a Geist, so you can see the problem there. As for a full set of Snare, it's not a must, 3 is fine as well. I haven't had problems with a full set yet, it has always been useful. Against Nimble Mongoose RUG, I board out all my snares because the only thing to counter is Goyf. Since I play a full set of path and swords after board, I didn't need any snares at all.
Crucible in the board is a flex slot, but I've found it very useful. I board it in against decks which have a LD plan (aggro loam/rug) and also the Control mirror. It's a very versatile card in which it not only saves you when you are behind (ie getting screwed with wastes), but also puts you ahead when the game state is about even. It's a must answer in the long game. I like it over, say another walker because the colourless 3cc is very easy on the curve. Usually you get screwed on coloured mana as stifles/wastes will target our coloured, so crucible has saved me plenty of times in that situation, then put me ahead with wastelock/ recurring factories.
Thanks for the suggestions, yes its more optimal to spread out the fetches, however the Tarns are a leftover from my pre-snapcaster UWR/Lavamancer days and I can't be assed replacing the foil fetches. :P If I get screwed my needle/surgical, I'll probably slap myself like Saito.
I don't think Geist is that great in the Mirror. Whenever I see Geist, I do a mental fistpump because that means less Cliques. Geist is easily stopped with a Snapcaster/Factory/Clique and the Clique/Snapcaster always makes it a 2-for-1. Clique really shines in clearing the way for a Jace/Elspeth, while Geist does nothing but beats.
I agree with Clique > Geist in the Mirror
Clique is better than Geist in every matchup.
Anyone tried flusterstorm in the board? I'm thinking of running a 2/2 split of fluster and pierce. Though pierce is more flexible, I only board in 2 max against control because 2 many might be blanks late. My 3rd and 4th pierce come in mainly against combo. In that situation, fluster is superior due to its near uncounterability. Thoughts?
I've had Flusterstorm in the board, as there is an unfortunate amount of storm combo in my local meta. I've never had occasion to use it. The problem is two-fold: Orrim's Chant and Silence. By the time your opponent is casting Tendrils, they've probably gotten one of those through. You usually have to stop them earlier, and for that Spell Pierce is often just as good (or just as ineffectual). I've started boarding Canonist instead. I know it's not a lock, but my hope is that between Canonist, and counters, I can slow them down enough that I can get their life down far enough that Ad Nauseum fizzles.
I agree canonist is much better if solely against storm. However the reason I prefer fluster is because it stops other combo decks like reanimator. Since the printing of graveborn, reanimator has become pretty popular and I prefer my sb cards to be as versatile as possible.
Also chant effects are a pain, yes. In this regard fluster is only slightly better than pierce because if you force the initial chant and they still attempt to go off while playing around pierce (generally they'll go off late in the game because we have no clock and by then, will have a ton of mana), flusterstorm is pretty much a hard counter.
Also flusterstorm is pretty much gg against high tide. High tide into spiral? Fluster will stop that no matter how many counters he has.
I tried Flusterstorm in my UWr board and am pretty pleased with it overall. I play 3 Reb effects, 2 Pierce and 2 Flusterstorm. I think this is somewhat optimal for almost every matchup. Sure for storm flusterstorm is nuts, especially with snapcaster. I found it useful against RUG too.
I disagree with Geist<Clique in the Mirror, both cost 3 mana, are pitchable to force and are legendary.
Geist as a clock has 6 power and clique 3.
Sure clique has flying, but dies to almost everything, removal, jitte or a flipped delver. Maverick has also some nasty flying creatures and you can count the new esperblade token, spellstuter sprites, bitterblossom, squadron hawks, etc.
Yeah, if you control the board, every creature can bring down an opponent.
Geist can be flashed down? Sure, but you can also smash clique with clique or snapcaster with sword/bolt, all common 3 mana options. Remember, if a Geist can attack, his player has also mana open, to protect it for incoming blockers. But even blocked, a Geist pushes 4 damage to your opponent or a walker. If you count equipment, and you should, because this deck is known as "Stoneblade", a Geist is a much harder threat compared to Clique, if both are equiped. Against Maverick a Geist with Sword of Feast and Famine is my prefered win option, especially if the play the common punishing Fire Version.
If you count combohate, yeah clique is the right option, if you can survive 3 turns.
I play UWr, with Geist and Bolts MD and i crushed an UWr Stoneblade with clique at my last tournament very easy 2:0.
Don't get me wrong. Geist is a fine card, but clique supports your gameplan (which should be sticking a planeswalker and not creatures). Clique is more versatile too. Sure if you run a list with bolts and Stp you can remove clique easy, but you will lose a planeswalker or equipment in the process.
I play both in my lists and i'm pretty pleased with this split. On the draw in the mirror i board out geist and leave it in if i'm on the play.
Canonist is not only effective against storm combo, but also slows down Combo Elves, Enchantress, High Tide, and Hive Mind considerably.
I'm not seeing Flusterstorm's strength against Reanimator versus Spell Pierce. They don't tend to cast a lot of spells in a turn do they? Is it the ineffectiveness of FoW against it?
Also, Flusterstorm won't hit Animate Dead. I'd vote Spell Pierce every time.
To beat Reanimator, you want to hit the Discard outlets and not the Reanimation effects. You should be concentrating on countering entomb/careful study/show and tell instead of the Reanimation spells. They run less discard outlets than reanimation spells + Entomb gets them THE RIGHT DUDE while careful study digs in addition to pitching.
You want to have the T1 hard counter against entomb/careful. I usually lose when I can't answer a T1 Entomb/Careful backed by Daze and or Force of Will. Flusterstorm make sures that shit stays countered and thats what I like about it. I'm not saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce. I believe Pierce is the better card, however I am saying Flusterstorm is better than Pierce 3 and 4 because you will unlikely bring in more than 2 Pierces against anything thats not combo.
Therefore, if Pierce 3/4 are specifically against combo, shouldn't we be running the stronger combo hoser? That's what I plan to play right now, a 2/2 split of Pierce and Fluster in the board.
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