[Deck] Dredge

[jares]

Dread Return is staying in my build. Im also looking at Flayer over Sun Titan at this point, too.

Didn't Sun Titan perform well during the last time that you used him?

Regarding the number of Dread Returns in the deck, I think that a good balance for it is to use [X+1] Dread Returns in the deck, where X is the number of times that you expect to cast it.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

Even though Sun Titan was incredibly good, I think having that definitive source of damage without passing the turn is also very good, too. Sun Titan is very good in LED Dredge, but I think passing the turn even though you have a virtual win locked up can be quite unnerving at times.

[Final Fortune]

I keep on forgetting to mention this whenever applicable, but I do like that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1, with the intention to use it as a discard outlet, essentially puts you in a situation where you had a 9-card opening hand!

I get confused whenever people say that playing Careful Study/Faithless Looting on Turn-1 is not a good play, when in my experience, it has always been very rewarding: draw two extra cards, discard 2 cards that I want in the graveyard, all for one mana. In comparison, while Tireless Tribe is able to provide unlimited discard capability on Turn-1, having a 1/1 Creature seems less desirable when compared to having 2 extra cards that can potentially be extra enablers.

Cheers,
jares

It's not that the play is inherently bad, it's that the play is often sub-optimal compared to T1 DDD, T2 Careful Study where you can use it to go off instead of set up. If they put you on the play G2, then obviously it's a good play.

In all fairness my Dredge "style" is heavily influenced by Phantasmagorian, but durring my time playing Phantasmagorian based lists that was the lesson I learned.

[jares]

It's not that the play is inherently bad, it's that the play is often sub-optimal compared to T1 DDD, T2 Careful Study where you can use it to go off instead of set up. If they put you on the play G2, then obviously it's a good play.

In all fairness my Dredge "style" is heavily influenced by Phantasmagorian, but durring my time playing Phantasmagorian based lists that was the lesson I learned.

Agreed. Having Free Discard is always a good thing, especially against blue-based decks.

Actually, my comment was thought-of in the context of "Tireless Tribe VS Faithless Looting" (any comments on this?), but it sounds like it's also applicable to the comparison you noted.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Even though Sun Titan was incredibly good, I think having that definitive source of damage without passing the turn is also very good, too. Sun Titan is very good in LED Dredge, but I think passing the turn even though you have a virtual win locked up can be quite unnerving at times.

I personally am not too worried about passing the turn after I've played Cabal Therapy several times while creating an army, but it's always a good thing to add more certainty to each scenario. I'm thinking about whether or not there's still an argument between Flayer of the Hatebound VS Flame-Kin Zealot, and it seems to me that the only advantage Flame-Kin Zealot might have is that it does not demand extra Dread Returns as much. Otherwise, FotH seems to be the new FKZ.

Cheers,
jares

[Anusien]

How is LEDless better at cabal therapy?

Also, LED dredge can win before a player gets a wheel of sun and moon down.

Typo. LED is of course better at Therapying away hate cards like Leyline and Wheel of Sun and Moon, but worse at fighting once they come down.

LED is a little bit faster and more explosive, so it has better access to early Therapy (we will ignore the extra creatures LEDless can hardcast). LEDless is Therapying by turn 3 almost guaranteed and turn if lucky; the numbers for LED seem about a half turn faster. However the extra 2+ lands in LEDless plus the wider range of keepable hands and the extra creatures to cast make me more confidant with LEDless's ability to evoke Ingot Chewer to kill a cage and keep going.

[Michael Keller]

Typo. LED is of course better at Therapying away hate cards like Leyline and Wheel of Sun and Moon, but worse at fighting once they come down.

LED Dredge plays just as many anti-hate spells in its sideboard than any other non-LED variant, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. Anyone leaving in LED against a deck running Leyline should not be doing that to begin with, and if you're running against Wheel, you should have Ray of Revelation at the ready early on (acceptable to have LED versus Maverick) so you can just flash it back if it goes to your graveyard for whatever reason - be it from a Study effect, LED discard, etc. This puts the Wheel player on notice early and changes the dynamic of the game.

Non-LED Dredge often eschews Faithless Looting, which is actually worth mentioning because the draw-discard spells that are more prevalent in LED Dredge can find you anti-hate in the event you need them. The sideboards between both archetypes are close enough with the anti-hate package that they're both basically interchangeable in that respect.

I just think people give LED Dredge a bad wrap when it comes to consistency issues, and I think that's a fallacy to a certain degree. I am not insinuating it doesn't have issues, but they certainly aren't as big as people make them out to be.

[Final Fortune]

Agreed. Having Free Discard is always a good thing, especially against blue-based decks.

Actually, my comment was thought-of in the context of "Tireless Tribe VS Faithless Looting" (any comments on this?), but it sounds like it's also applicable to the comparison you noted.

Cheers,
jares

Faithless Looting > Tireless Tribe, Dredge wants a card that accelerates its fundamental turn and not a card that is redundant to its discard phase, if Putrid Imp wasn't black I wouldn't even play it. It's not that Tirleless Tribe and Putrid Imp are effectively bad cards, it's just that their utility today is nowhere near what their utility was 2 years ago vs diversified SBs.

@People

I disagree LED Dredge is less consistent than LEDless Dredge, LED is essentially a manasource for both Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum with Putrid Imp rarely needing to be cast game 1 (you should always choose to draw game 1 IMO) and Cabal Therapy usually relying on its alternate casting cost. As long as you're willing to sacrifice 2 to 3 SB slots for lands, you'll be playing the exact same deck post-board.

@Cabal Therapy

I actually do think LEDless Dredge may be able to resolve more Cabal Therapies than LED Dredge and faster, you have 8 discard dorks to either double Cabal Therapy the opponent on turn 2 or Cabal Therapy the opponent on turn 1 by discarding Cabal Therapy and sacrificing the discard dork compared to 4.

[Anusien]

LED Dredge plays just as many anti-hate spells in its sideboard than any other non-LED variant, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. Anyone leaving in LED against a deck running Leyline should not be doing that to begin with, and if you're running against Wheel, you should have Ray of Revelation at the ready early on (acceptable to have LED versus Maverick) so you can just flash it back if it goes to your graveyard for whatever reason - be it from a Study effect, LED discard, etc. This puts the Wheel player on notice early and changes the dynamic of the game.

The fact that LED usually positions itself to take out LED and bring in lands (i.e., transforming into LEDless) should indicate why LEDless is superior at fighting Wheel.

Specifically, the range of keepable hands is superior with Tireless Tribe than Faithless Looting (you can't keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in the same way that you can with Tireless Tribe). Even post-board, LEDless rarely has the full 15 lands (shortening again the range of keepable hands).

I do wonder whether Winds of Change or Faithless Looting is better post-board in LEDless as a draw spell against combo.

[Blitzbold]

LED Dredge plays just as many anti-hate spells in its sideboard than any other non-LED variant, so I'm not sure what difference it makes. Anyone leaving in LED against a deck running Leyline should not be doing that to begin with, and if you're running against Wheel, you should have Ray of Revelation at the ready early on (acceptable to have LED versus Maverick) so you can just flash it back if it goes to your graveyard for whatever reason - be it from a Study effect, LED discard, etc. This puts the Wheel player on notice early and changes the dynamic of the game.

So how are sideboards looking at the moment? I myself am a bit torn between Hollywood's and Ando's choices (and reasoning). After re-reading Feldman's great Dark Art article again I am quite unsure what to bring in an unknown meta (read: bigger tournament out of your city).


For reference, this is my current list, which is quite close to Ando's list from Indy:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy


It's the board where it getting interesting (see above):

SB 3 Firestorm
SB 1 Ancient Grudge
SB 2 Nature's Claim
SB 1 Chain of Vapor
SB 2 Coffin Purge
SB 1 Cabal Therapy
SB 1 Faerie Macabre
SB 2 Ichorid
SB 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB 1 Angel of Despair


My concerns about the list:
- 2 or 3 Ichorids main? While 2 might be typically enough, I'd love to board to the full 4 in certain matchups. As SB space is scarce, maybe the 3rd could find it's way back in?
- Even more important: I'd love to fit the 4. Therapy into my maindeck.

Again: How is you board looking and what's your reasoning for doing so? I saw that Hollywood ran anti-hate despite Feldman's findings, and I am with him that some form of anti-hate might be needed. On the other hand anti-hate might indeed mean drawing / dredging blanks.

[jares]

I disagree LED Dredge is less consistent than LEDless Dredge, LED is essentially a manasource for both Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum with Putrid Imp rarely needing to be cast game 1 (you should always choose to draw game 1 IMO) and Cabal Therapy usually relying on its alternate casting cost. As long as you're willing to sacrifice 2 to 3 SB slots for lands, you'll be playing the exact same deck post-board.

I believe that the main source of the said "consistency issues" with LED is exactly what you have implied - LED usually takes the land slots. Because lands are still the main dependencies of the enablers that we play, it's just natural that having less of these would cause some issues. Of course, the sideboard will always be there to provide lands post-board, but unfortunately, this also means that we still need to "sacrifice" slots for these lands, which, by definition, will cause some degree of loss.

Having said that, I believe that Hollywood is correct in noting that this loss of "consistency" should not be blown out of proportion. The issues that LED had before Faithless Looting was printed are still very much there, except that the gravity of these issues have been greatly lessened because of what Faithless Looting, not LED, is able to provide as a draw/discard medium that you can hard-cast (which is its main difference from Deep Analysis). For reference, these are the figures that we're dealing with when we refer to the LED-Land trade-off:

• Quadlazer Build ([8x] Gold Lands, [4x] Cephalid Coliseum; [12x] Lands Total)
  
  • Probability to get a land in the opening hand: 80.94%
  • Probability to get a Gold Land in the opening hand: 65.36%
• Full set of each of the usual "Dredge Lands" ([12x] Gold Lands, [4x] Cephalid Coliseum; [16x] Lands Total)
  
  • Probability to get a land in the opening hand: 90.08%
  • Probability to get a Gold Land in the opening hand: 80.94%

At the end of the day, these numbers are there for us to consider, and it will be up to us to evaluate the probabilities that are acceptable to what we're trying to achieve in building a deck. It's worth noting, though, that the LED-Land trade-off isn't the only consideration that we have when considering the inclusion of LED, as LED has many more interactions with the deck in being a discard outlet while also being a draw/discard medium.

I hope that this helps put things into perspective.

Cheers,
jares

[jares]

Specifically, the range of keepable hands is superior with Tireless Tribe than Faithless Looting (you can't keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in the same way that you can with Tireless Tribe).

I find this to be false, as you can certainly keep Faithless Looting as your only discard outlet in your opening hand, not to mention that it also allows you to draw 2 extra cards that are likely to be additional enablers. In fact, the opposite is true because Faithless Looting is able to cover two of the four types of cards (Land, Discarder, Draw, Dredger) that you want to see in your opening hand: the range of "keepable" hands is superior with Faithless Looting than Tireless Tribe.

Even post-board, LEDless rarely has the full 15 lands (shortening again the range of keepable hands).

I guess that you might be right in noting that a build running more than 14 lands is rare. I'm personally running 16 lands, but that might just be me.

Kindly refer to my previous comment (above) regarding the "keepability" of hands in the context of getting lands in the opening hand.

Cheers,
jares

[Dravus Mallinard]

I had a funny ilustrative hand this week in a casual match...

1x putrid imp
1x Faithless looting
2x Golgari thugs
1x bridge from below
1x cabal therapy
1x Lion eye`s Diamond

In a tournament I would mullingan this hand, however, I was on the draw and decided to keep... I drew another LED

Played both LEDs, activated one to play Looting ... I found a GGT and another Looting in the process ... then activated another LED ... and that is it !!!

Funny hand that makes me love the combination of LED with Looting, apart of probability issues...

[Michael Keller]

So how are sideboards looking at the moment? I myself am a bit torn between Hollywood's and Ando's choices (and reasoning). After re-reading Feldman's great Dark Art article again I am quite unsure what to bring in an unknown meta (read: bigger tournament out of your city).


For reference, this is my current list, which is quite close to Ando's list from Indy:

4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
2 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

4 Bridge from Below
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough
3 Dread Return
3 Cabal Therapy


It's the board where it getting interesting (see above):

SB 3 Firestorm
SB 1 Ancient Grudge
SB 2 Nature's Claim
SB 1 Chain of Vapor
SB 2 Coffin Purge
SB 1 Cabal Therapy
SB 1 Faerie Macabre
SB 2 Ichorid
SB 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB 1 Angel of Despair


My concerns about the list:
- 2 or 3 Ichorids main? While 2 might be typically enough, I'd love to board to the full 4 in certain matchups. As SB space is scarce, maybe the 3rd could find it's way back in?
- Even more important: I'd love to fit the 4. Therapy into my maindeck.

Again: How is you board looking and what's your reasoning for doing so? I saw that Hollywood ran anti-hate despite Feldman's findings, and I am with him that some form of anti-hate might be needed. On the other hand anti-hate might indeed mean drawing / dredging blanks.

I think as time has progressed people have begun to understand that Feldman's article was seriously and deeply flawed. Dredge has become more intricate as time has gone by, in addition to a general meta plagued by plenty more graveyard hate than had existed at that article's inception.

With that being said, the reason I opted to run Coffin Purge in my sideboard was because I wanted to have a solid card that didn't increase my mulligan aggressiveness at the start of the game in search of anti-hate spells. With something like Faerie Macabre here exclusively, you'd have to open-hand one to use it, and that really isn't all that necessary when you dilute your own strategy down a bit in the process.

Against an opponent running Leyline, that's a whole other story. You don't want to straight-up lose to that card, which is why you want to have a fighting chance.

Against Reanimator, I just basically go with the Purges and make attempts to strip my opponent's hands in the process of conditional counter-magic. Once that is done, mana-up with Purge becomes insanely good, because it puts you a step ahead. Faerie Macabre is obviously better at fighting that, but again - you're better off just going off with LED at the ready and try to (virtually) win the game on the spot. Reanimator has to actually be able to start with an Entomb, reanimation spell, and hate spell for them to have a good chance at beating you. Otherwise, the deck cannot afford to reanimate sub-optimal targets while you smash their face in - and make the card Reanimate really bad for them in the process, and making Exhume relatively funny - bringing back a huge Troll.

My sideboard hasn't changed and probably won't until I continue seeing a reason to try other things out due to a meta shift, but that hasn't happened yet so I'm still where I was at before. Ando's list is fine, but he is going for the Flayer kill and another Dread Return main. I personally feel the deck is fast enough where two Dread Returns are more than enough as an alternative kill mechanic, but I don't know if three is worth it.

Remember, if you're blasting through a huge portion of your deck game one, then two Dread Return is really all you'll need to gain a massive advantage over an opponent quickly, Three can be good, but it's really a matter of taste.

If anything, I'm thinking about upping the count of Grudges to three at this point. Also, Firestorm again is a card that I just cannot cut to tighten up those games against Affinity and Elves where you can just blow them out early.

Additionally, I'd be careful about running two more Ichorid in your sideboard. Ichorid requires a certain amount of Black creatures to feed it, so just keep that in mind. I personally love the card, but I think three might just be the right number at this point.

[Michael Keller]

I had a funny ilustrative hand this week in a casual match...

1x putrid imp
1x Faithless looting
2x Golgari thugs
1x bridge from below
1x cabal therapy
1x Lion eye`s Diamond

In a tournament I would mullingan this hand, however, I was on the draw and decided to keep... I drew another LED

Played both LEDs, activated one to play Looting ... I found a GGT and another Looting in the process ... then activated another LED ... and that is it !!!

Funny hand that makes me love the combination of LED with Looting, apart of probability issues...

I played against Alix Hatfield this week (who was running Maverick) in the local event and game two I hand some dredgers and other good stuff in my graveyard after a mulligan that left me with only a Cephalid Coliseum in play (after just playing Breakthrough to dump my hand the previous turn).

After checking out my graveyard, I generally calculated what the odds were of me drawing into something that could be virtually game-winning in that scenario. Alix also mulled, and had a relatively decent start accelerating into Hierarch, and I felt as though I had a good chance of drawing into a ton of cards that could help me.

Here was my graveyard (to the best of my memory):

Looting
Troll
Imp
Imp
Thug
Dread Return
Breakthrough
Etc.

There were no lands, no LED's, and no Studies. I also had a few more Breakthrough left and every other land in my deck. Here were the cards I could have drawn to explode on him:

4 Careful Study
2 Breakthrough
12 Lands
4 LED

That's 22 cards I could have drawn into to virtually win me the game on the spot, after already going through 11 of them (mulligan, draw for turn, then four off Breakthrough, too). Those leave you tremendous odds drawing into business over just a basic dredge.

So, I felt as though "slow-dredging" him and simply dredging an Imp would be suboptimal at that point because I had so many cards I could actually draw into to basically explode all over him, and sure enough, I drew another Breakthrough.

Game over.

LED Dredge actually top-decks better than people give it credit for, which is illustrated in this circumstance and the one you mentioned drawing an LED. You just have to calculate the risks in regards to what your graveyard has in it in conjunction with what is left in your deck. If you feel you want to draw a card, by all means under the circumstances go for it.

[K1w1]

Ok,
after failing at the trial for bazaar of moxen(2-3) with Necro (3-2) and Hokus(2-3) ( :D ) i decided to try a bloodghast/led/flayer list.
First of all, i thought, how can i build this deck without losing at speed, because i tried it sometimes to build a bloodghast/flayer list but i failed.
While i was in my bed and tried to sleep, i had an idea.
How about changing the quadlazer in triple?
Of course you need some cards as a 4-off but that's all.

So this is my list:

3 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Breakthrough
3 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Ichorid
3 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 City of Brass
3 Bloodghast
3 Dread Return
3 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Maybe i can change something for the 4th LED, but i think it's fine atm.

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Memory's Journey
1 Ray of Revelation
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Firestorm ( f***ing Maverick ) ( and Ooze )

Any comments?

K1w1

[joemauer]

I would play four LEDs or none.

Also, sun Titan plays well with bloodghast.

[Izor]

Ok,
after failing at the trial for bazaar of moxen(2-3) with Necro (3-2) and Hokus(2-3) ( :D ) i decided to try a bloodghast/led/flayer list.

Did you all run the Quad list? If so, add lands!


After not being able ro make it to any major tournaments/trials this weekend, I played in a small local tournament. After pondering for a while, I decided to give LED Dredge a shot, even though I feel more comfortable with LEDless.

This was the list:

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 Tarnished Citadel

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Putrid Imp
2 Ichorid
4 Bridge From Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
1 Dread Return

4 Nature's Claim
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Coffin Purge
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Firestorm
1 Undiscovered Paradise
1 don't remember


Round 1 vs Team America:

Game 1 I easily win. He has no interaction.
Game 2 he finds an Extirpate and has two early Goyfs while I don't dredge into anything.
Game 3 I Therapy away one Extirpate and proceed to win pretty easily.

Round 2 vs Storm Combo

Game 1 I'm on the play, he mulls to 6. I open on Therapy on LED and he shows me Land, 3xLotus Petal, Cabal Ritual, Infernal Tutor. Awesome... He casts his Petals, lays a land and passes. Turn two I hardcast a Narcomoeba and Flashback Therapy for the Tutor (seeing that he drew a land last turn). He doesn't do anything on his next turn. Turn three I go off with LED and several draw effects. I dredge over 40 cards and find 3 Bridge and 3 Therapies, but no more Narcos... He topdecks Burning Wish and wins via fast mana into Wish for PiF.

Game 2 I go off turn two, but I can't find a second Dredger in the top 20 cards of my library. He kills me on turn 2.

Round 3 vs Burn

I blow him out game 1

I blow him out game two again. I know his hate is only some Macabres, so I therapy for it before going off.

Round 4 vs RUG Delver

Game 1 is a blowout. I easily kill him.

Game two he has turn 1 Delver, turn 2 Delver, turn 3 Goyf backed up by double Daze and Surgical Extraction on my Bridges.

Game 3: I know he has both Surgical and Crypts. I keep a good hand with two Lands, Therapy and Ancient Grudge. Guess what happens. I Therapy for Extraction, seeing a hand with Crypt, Delver, Goyf and other stuff. He keeps the Crypt in his hand and starts applying pressure early. When I have to commit to my bin, he lays and immediately activates the Crypt. He easily wins.

Losing the last match knocked me out of contention, so I went home. Some thoughts:

- LED was good in the Storm and Burn matchup. Except in one game, though, Tireless Tribe would have done exactly the same.

- I drew the two additional maindeck Lands all the time. Without them, I would have had to mull a lot of hands. This way I only mulled once to 6 I think. I would never play only 8 gold lands, 10 is the minimum imho.

- I really really missed Tireless Tribe in the RUG Tempo matchup. Both LED and Breakthrough are cards that don't do anything in that matchup post board, while Tribe is the exact card that lets you play around Crypts and stall Goyfs / Mongooses until you can generate board presence. I won't claim that Tribes would have won that games for me, but LED and BT were such a liability, my deck felt very vulnerable.


In general, I do think that 7-8 discard dorks hugely improve your post board matchups, no matter against what type of graveyard hate you're up against. I think I'm going to play LEDless again next time.

[Final Fortune]

Random question, which do you guys feel is definitevely better if you had to play either, Winds of Change or Burning Inquiry?

[NecroYawgmoth]

Did you all run the Quad list? If so, add lands!

I ran a list which was basically a mix from the Flayer-GP-Dredge and Quadlazer [with 14 lands for the record].

The thing that annoyed me the most that day was that Coliseum can't produce . Seriously!!! rageface.jpg

Anyways... I played like a complete idiot this day, so don't mind my result... [well, at least I wasn't the only one *looking to Hokus* ]. Btw, our mirror was definitely the best match this day. ;P

Random question, which do you guys feel is definitevely better if you had to play either, Winds of Change or Burning Inquiry?

Winds of Change, because it flips your deck. Burning Inquiry doesn't yard you a dredger 100% if you need it, so I go for the raw draw-power out of these 2.