Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[caiomarcos]

When will people stop being idiots like this? It's basically just madness with a different trigger. Yes, you get to play sorceries during your draw step with the miracle ability. The same way you could play creatures on your opponent's turn if they hymn to tourach'd you.

If you move to your main phase with the miracle card in your hand, you missed the opportunity to play the miracle card. The same way you look at a card for Delver of Secrets before moving it to your hand, just look at the card off the top of your deck before you put it in your hand. Just get used to playing with your hand separate from where you're drawing so people can easily see you draw things, and you're good to go.



Except you CAN cast explore on turn 2, and you CAN'T cast Neo Time Walk on turn 2, because you won't have a second land in play when the miracle ability triggers. Explore on turn 3 means you have 2 mana open just like the time walk on turn 3.

Plus, what do you need two mana open so badly in legacy for anyway? Most of the counterspells everyone plays are 1 or 0 mana, the good removal is mostly 1 mana. Yea, there's lots of good 2CMC spells, but it's not like standard where the only way you can counter a spell is by having 2 or 3 mana open.

You're all looking at it the wrong way. OK, Time Walk early is good, but it's nothing compared when you are in attrition and then you get to attack twice with your Batterskull, or you just skip Stoneforge summoning sickness or you just abuse your Jace twice or when you get that extra time you need to attack once more with Delver and Mongoose to put the opponent in Bolt's reach.
If all you want is dropping lands, yeah it's just an Explore. When you want another whole fucking turn I think Time Walk is the better option. Not every card is better when played the earliest.

The whole game is based on the one turn after the other rule. "I'll beat now, no need to leave a blocker, then he attacks me down to 7 and passes, I untap and get to play this and this OH BUT WAIT he will not pass, you will not untap and he will attack you twice, use Jace twice etc". Every decision is based on that, breaking that is extremely powerful.

C'mon, there's no point dicussing the power of Time Walk/extra turns. Let's discuss it's conditionality.

[nedleeds]

I agree, even without Brainstorm it's still going to be broken as hell. Worst case scenario it's in your opener and the card you pitch to FoW, or it's a dead card until you play a Jace to turn it on.

Also, I can't believe some people actually think it won't be good in a format WITH Brainstorm. Seriously, what the fork?

All these Time Walk/Explore comparisons are also pretty bad, because people keep forgetting one crucial thing: Explore taps you down to only 1 available mana, while you will have 3 open mana after Time Walking on turn two. This is a big fucking deal.

How the hell do you have 2 mana in your draw step on turn 2?

[KevinTrudeau]

I was being a bit hyperbolic earlier when I said that this was looking like the worst (worst is pretty ambiguous; I mean it in the sense that there wasn't much thought put out in terms of design) modern set to see print, but it's honestly looking that way; it just feels like there's no semblance of a power curve relative to mana cost anymore (well, there is, but not nearly to the degree that there was pre-Alara block). Complete bollocks.

The Bargain Demon that's pretty much Sphinx of the Steel Wind and Jin combined will likely supplant the former in Reanimator (not completely sure of course, as Sphinx dodges giant Knights, Crushers, Karakas, etc., but it's certainly looking that way) and could supplant the latter as well. Shitty-ass design.

The new Time Walk looks pretty good, but I honestly don't know yet whether or not it's good enough to get the Mind's Desire treatment (or to be banned at all, frankly). I feel that people aren't talking enough about the white one, which looks potentially amazing as well.

Seriously, fuck Miracle (not that the mechanic's inherently bad as it does have potential to be really cool, but the way they've utilized it so far in cheapening really powerful effects), fuck this set, and fuck modern Magic design.

[socialite]

Belcher with Force of Will. Take that Blue decks!

Straw Man.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Miracle is shitty. Granted it can be really good randomly but it's not worth building around the mechanic.

On a related note can someone tell Wizards that Hexproof is about 50000x better than Shroud so they can adjust the casting cost accordingly.

I'm starting to think that MTG isn't long for this world. Power creep has increased 100x in the past 4 years. Who the hell is designing this game because I think they are being very shortsighted...

[Rune]

Except you CAN cast explore on turn 2, and you CAN'T cast Neo Time Walk on turn 2, because you won't have a second land in play when the miracle ability triggers. Explore on turn 3 means you have 2 mana open just like the time walk on turn 3.

Plus, what do you need two mana open so badly in legacy for anyway? Most of the counterspells everyone plays are 1 or 0 mana, the good removal is mostly 1 mana. Yea, there's lots of good 2CMC spells, but it's not like standard where the only way you can counter a spell is by having 2 or 3 mana open.

Sorry, I'm retarded. Didn't read/understand the mechanic properly and therefore derped hard, thinking you could pay the Miracle trigger cost anytime during the turn it triggered or something.

That changes my perspective on it, but but I'm still certain it's too broken.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The Miracles are really, really, really shitty design, and I in no way want to take away from talking about how atrocious the design on this block generally has been.

That being said, Temporal whatever doesn't seem remotely busted because the Miracle mechanic is inherently swingy.

If they affect the banned list at all, it'll only be to be the final thing that gets Sensei's Divining Top banned, which would be retarded because then there's that much less incentive to play non-blue but hey.

[Vacrix]

I've been talking to people about this quite a lot. People are testing it in UR Delver and its pretty good...

As a 2'of. It helps Delver goldfish a turn 4 pretty consistently.

[Koby]

I've been talking to people about this quite a lot. People are testing it in UR Delver and its pretty good...

As a 2'of. It helps Delver goldfish a turn 4 pretty consistently.

You mean their turn 5. Opponent is still on turn 3 wishing he was playing with Belcher instead. :P

[Dzra]

You're all looking at it the wrong way. OK, Time Walk early is good, but it's nothing compared when you are in attrition and then you get to attack twice with your Batterskull, or you just skip Stoneforge summoning sickness or you just abuse your Jace twice or when you get that extra time you need to attack once more with Delver and Mongoose to put the opponent in Bolt's reach.
If all you want is dropping lands, yeah it's just an Explore. When you want another whole fucking turn I think Time Walk is the better option. Not every card is better when played the earliest.

I agree, people who are looking to cast this t2-3 are probably looking at this the wrong way. Sure, if you topdeck it t3, are you going to put it in your hand? Doubtful. Take your extra turn, explore, and be happy. The real strength though is topdecking (or setting this up via Brainstorm/Ponder/Personal Tutor) on t4-6 when you have a board presence and can actually make use of the extra turn to its fullest. Do you really want to give a deck like RUG, Stoneforge, or Reanimator two turn 4's in a row? This card completely ruins the notion of racing.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Man, have you guys ever bashed face with double Rancor on a Cold-Eyed Selkie? It's shittin' ridiculous.

[Kuma]

Let's take a step back and look at what actually will happen when people try to play Griselbrand and Temporal Mastery.

Personal Tutor into Temporal Mastery in RUG Tempo:

You cast Personal Tutor for U putting Temporal Mastery on top of your deck (-1 card advantage). Next turn, you spend 1U casting Temporal Mastery leaving you little mana to do anything else. You then take an extra turn (0 card advantage). If you had a Delver of Secrets, you get to swing for an extra 3. If you had an extra land in your hand, you get to play it.

If you're doing this around turn three or so, you're essentially Time Walking yourself to set it up. If you're doing it later, its kind of slow and durdly. Personal Tutor is not what I want to be topdecking in the mid-game with RUG. Even if you turn one Delver, turn two flip Delver, Personal Tutor -> Temporal Mastery, turn three Temporal Mastery, what did you gain? You limited yourself to one mana on turns two and three so you could get an extra swing with Delver and maybe another land drop. It's even worse if you don't hit three land by turn three, as you'll have no mana to do anything but set up your extra turn.

To accomplish this, you must devote at least 5-6 slots (4 Personal Tutor and 1+ Temporal Mastery). All of the Temporal Masteries are terrible if drawn in your opening hand. The Personal Tutors are lousy mid-game topdecks. What are you going to cut for these slots? Cantrips? That makes Temporal Mastery worse. Lightning Bolt? It's essentially the same thing for two less mana. Creatures? Way to make your Temporal Masteries worse.

This is a lot of effort for not a lot of pay-off. I could see running one or two Masteries that you try to set up with cantrips, but this card is not the insane monster people are making it out to be.

Griselbrand in a storm shell:

Did you guys forget about Ad Nauseum? Pretty sure you can draw more cards for less life and mana without running terrible two card combos involving Show and Tell.

Griselbrand in Reanimator:

Griselbrand does have some advantages over Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, but he also has some disadvantages. He's a bigger body that lifelinks, and he can get you the cards after your end step allowing for a chance to play them before you must discard. However, if you Reanimate him and use his ability, you just paid 15 life. I hope you didn't fetch, Force, or Thoughtseize, because if you did, you just lost to Lightning Bolt. He also doesn't make your opponents lose their hands which can be a huge deal in some matchups. I can see him as a one-of that you Entomb for sometimes, but he's not doing much to increase Reanimator's viability in the metagame.

Calm down, people.

[(nameless one)]

I think Miracle Walk is good in Spiral Tide as an alternative to Candelabra. What Candelabra does is make that deck a turn faster.

I think the reason why Explore sees play in some Spiral Tide lists is because they can't afford Candelabra money-wise and it basically does the same thing.

With Miracle Walk, they can essentially Explore in the early turn (and have their lands untap). The best part is its blue and they don't have to splash and it pitches to FoW.

The only bad thing I see is they can't chain it once you have a Time Spiral going.

As for Griselbrand, I see potential with Necrotic Ooze (though could be more viable in Modern)

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I can't even tell if people are being serious anymore.

Candelabra is amazing in High Tide and gives you lots mana, and in multiples with Turnabout gives you metrickfucktons of mana.

The Miracle card is an incredibly unreliable Explore in that deck that does nothing going off except pitch to Force if you're lucky.

Like, untapping your lands is a key part of High Tide and resetting the turn so you don't have High Tides active isn't. How does anyone think those are similar functions?

[Ignithas_]

How the hell do you have 2 mana in your draw step on turn 2?

Any Mana Acceleration would do that.

[Vacrix]

I can't even tell if people are being serious anymore.

Candelabra is amazing in High Tide and gives you lots mana, and in multiples with Turnabout gives you metrickfucktons of mana.

The Miracle card is an incredibly unreliable Explore in that deck that does nothing going off except pitch to Force if you're lucky.

Like, untapping your lands is a key part of High Tide and resetting the turn so you don't have High Tides active isn't. How does anyone think those are similar functions?

[Dzra]

You wouldn't run Personal Tutor in RUG. You would run a couple Temporal Mastery and call it a day. You would run Personal Tutor in Reanimator though as it doubles as a combo enabler and a way to finish the game quickly once you've combo'd (sidenote... I'm also fairly certain that Griselbrand is almost strickly better than Jin-Gitaxias). Temporal Mastery doesn't go into decks like High Tide, it goes in decks that establish board presence.

[Vacrix]

Seriously guys. I'm like Jesus. I prophesied this whole shitstorm like 12 pages back.

What about something slightly more OP?

Uno! 5UUU
Sorcery
Take an extra turn after this one.
Miracle 1U

You should have listened!!!


Listen to IBA and Aggro Zombies. They are making great points for why this card is not going to wreck the format like everyone thinks it will. Granted, it might be playable or even great, but not format wrecking. It also does virtually nothing to dislodge Maverick from the DTB of the format.

[Gheizen64]

This is an explore? Explore doesn't say "untap all your lands". Even with no creatures on the board, the difference between this and Explore is ridicolous, you can't compare the card.

[rufus]

...
As for Griselbrand, I see potential with Necrotic Ooze (though could be more viable in Modern)

I wonder about something goofy that runs, say...

4 Shallow Grave
4 Goryo's Vengeance
4 Jin-Gitaxias
4 Griselbrand


Though it's probably far into 'danger of cool things' land.