[Deck] Burn

[jares]

Seems like a nice addition to burn :-)

I don't think that we need to over-think this any further.

I believe that it should be this simple:

• Is 4 damage for a good bargain? Very much so.
• Is a 4/3 Creature for a good bargain? Are you kidding me?
• In summary, whatever our opponents choose, we're going to get a heck of a bargain for the that we spent, regardless of whether or not our opponents chose as we would like them to. In fact, giving our opponents the option to choose was the very reason that we had this bargain in the first place, and it's certainly a bargain that we can't say no to.

Exciting!

Cheers,
jares

[Curby]

The problem is under-thinking it by evaluating the two outcomes in a vacuum. That's precisely the sort of thinking that leads to people playing Browbeat. 5 damage is good. Three cards are good. It's the opponent's choice that makes the card bad.

Likewise, I'd love it if Lava Spike dealt 4, and I'd at least consider a vanilla 4/3 for R. The problem is that Vexing Devil is neither of these, and your opponent has a choice. It's better than Browbeat because it only costs 1, but the consequences of giving an opponent a choice in the matter does in fact need testing and consideration.

[jares]

It's sad that people are still considering running T.Wrath. It's been roundly debunked on MTGS. Pasting my post from there:

I like your points on Thunderous Wrath, as it puts things in perspective.

I also have major concerns regarding this card, though I still think that having the possibility of dealing 5 damage for is still very attractive, and would at least merit some testing. I do think that U/R Delver will be the deck that benefits most from that card, though, simply because they have access to Brainstorm (not to mention that Temporal Mastery will also be available).

I'll be posting the numbers for Thunderous Wrath (and any other Miracle card for that matter) as reference as soon as I can.

Kind Regards,
jares

[PedroFilipe92]

I think that the devil is awesome, and i´m thinking in using it in my deck.

The question for me is: what creature should Vexing replace? Keldon Marauders?

[DragoFireheart]

I think that the devil is awesome, and i´m thinking in using it in my deck.

The question for me is: what creature should Vexing replace? Keldon Marauders?

Without a doubt. Keldon Marauders is pretty terrible IMO when compared to the demon. At most, he deals 5, 2 minimum. The devil has a lot more potential to either deal 4 damage or much more. He could eat removal, but I think that's a risk worth taking compared to Marauders. He's also cheaper than Marauders: drawing 2-3 devils is fairly nasty.

[PedroFilipe92]

So, the creature base could be:

4x Goblin Guide
3x Hellspark Elemental
3x Grim Lavamancer/Figure of Destiny (?)
3-4 Vexing Devil

27-28 Burn Spells

19 Lands


Thunderous Wrath, for me, it´s not a good card for our burn.

[Curby]

I still think that having the possibility of dealing 5 damage for is still very attractive

Of course it's attractive, but attractive and practical are entirely different. Burn is all about consistency and efficiency, and the inconsistency of the card robs it of efficiency. Again, the average T.Wrath seen by burn will do roughly 2.5 damage by turn 8, and less damage in every game that ends before then. It's worse than a vanilla bolt in the vast majority of games you'll play, and that's independent of whether you run 1 or 4 or any other nonzero number.

Would you play a red Sorcery for R that said, "If your life total is 1, deal 20 damage to target player"? Hell, would you play it if it had zero cost? It might work in a certain combo deck, but not Burn. Likewise, T.Wrath might make sense in UR Delver, but not Burn.

[jares]

The problem is under-thinking it by evaluating the two outcomes in a vacuum. That's precisely the sort of thinking that leads to people playing Browbeat. 5 damage is good. Three cards are good. It's the opponent's choice that makes the card bad.

Likewise, I'd love it if Lava Spike dealt 4, and I'd at least consider a vanilla 4/3 for R. The problem is that Vexing Devil is neither of these, and your opponent has a choice. It's better than Browbeat because it only costs 1, but the consequences of giving an opponent a choice in the matter does in fact need testing and consideration.

If Browbeat cost , wouldn't you run it? maybe?

I would like to point out that the sort of thinking that lead people to play Browbeat is the failure to realize that they spent to play it - in other words, the card is overpriced for two possible effects that you can get out of it, especially in Burn's standards, and you won't be getting a bargain for whatever your opponents chose! This is obviously NOT the case for Vexing Devil, because, regardless of the situation, you're going to get a bargain for paying a measly (and that's not even a very risky investment, ain't it?).

Testing and consideration will always be a good thing, and allowing your opponent to choose outcomes will surely have its effects on the game, and that's the entire point - that's part of the bargain that has allowed the card to be strong and still maintain a certain degree of fairness!

Like I said, I don't see the benefit in over-thinking the value of this card. I would encourage everyone to find out for themselves - as for me, this clearly is a one-drop that I would want alongside my Goblin Guide.

Cheers,
jares

[RogueBuild]

ok, I haven't posted my build in a while so this is what I have as of 1pm 4-11-12 and hoping to make it easier I BOLDED the changes.

Creatures
4 Hellspark Elemental

Instants
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
-2 Flame Javelin
4 Magma Jet
3 Price of Progress
2 Volcanic Fallout -1
2 Smash to Smithereens
-2 Dead/Gone

Sorceries
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
2 Flamebreak -1
+3 Forked Bolt
+3 Lava Spike

Enchantment
3 Sulfuric Vortex

Lands
19 Mountain

Sideboard:
2 Smash to Smithereens
+2 Volcanic Fallout
+2 Flamebreak
2 Anarchy
4 Faerie Macabre
3 Flame Javelin +1

Runeflare Trap was cut from the SB complete, Lava Spike moved from SB to maindeck.
The basic reasoning for the adjustments of the number of sweepers in the MD was overkill. Game 1 is when we have the best chance of a quick kill so I wanted to take better advantage of that but without give up my ability to clear the table. Forked Bolt was a card I had some how never noticed and when I did found rather useful.

Once Thunderous Wrath and Vexing Devil are legal I will be adding 3 Thunderous Wrath (-3 Lava Spike).

Vexing Devil is a little more interesting. It will either replace Forked Bolt in the maindeck or be fit into the SB. My reasoning is this, in G1 when the opponent still has creature removal in the deck the likelihood of them letting it resolve just to kill it is much higher. As I run no creatures other then Hellspark my opponents will often side removal out for G2 and G3 (commonly siding in Leyline) which would give me a better chance of making a Vexing Devil either deal 4 damage when cast, or get to attack, both ways getting past the Leyline they thought would protect them. It really would be a perfect SBing situation for Burn but only works if they see no need to keep creature removal in the deck for G2 and G3.
In the SB I would either drop all the Flame Javelins for 3 Vexing Devils, or 3 Devils for -1 each Flame Javelin, Flamebreak, Volcanic. Javelin seems the more likely move, but before I give up my 4 damage instant speed Germ/Goyf/player killer I will need to feel Thunderous Wrath can have the impace I need it to have.

[jares]

Likewise, T.Wrath might make sense in UR Delver, but not Burn.

Having said that, I find it fair that U/R Delver won't probably be finding Vexing Devil too attractive. I'm sure that some will experiment on in, though.

Cheers,
jares

[KobeBryan]

Having said that, I find it fair that U/R Delver won't probably be finding Vexing Devil too attractive. I'm sure that some will experiment on in, though.

Cheers,
jares

how could a 4/3 for 1 not be attractive? Is power creep that out of control now?

[RogueBuild]

This is what I said about Browbeat a week or 2 ago, last time it came up here.

The problem with Browbeat isn't that it COULD do 5 damage or draw 3 cards, its not that it gives THEM a choice of 5 damage or 3 cards. If there was a 3cc burn spell with no drawback that did 5 damage I am not convinced people would play it. Why? because no one but me seems to play the 4damage 3cc burn spell because "it costs too much and breaks the curve". If there was a 3cc draw 3 red spell... well we have a better chance of a 6th color being introduced than that happening. The problem is that in BURN, and I cap BURN because this is not a problem for other decks, 3 mana for a spell where they let you draw 3 cards is virtual Meditate.

Now someone ask "how it is a Meditate?"

Glad you asked. By the time Burn is looking to end the game it might have 3 lands in play and I stress the might. If you are casting Browbeat you are in all likelihood in topdeck-mode and now tapped out. If they can safely take the 5 damage and still be over 4 life they likely will. If not what do you do with the 3 cards you just drew? Unless you drew Bolt/mountain/FireBlast or mountain/2x Fireblast the likelihood you can do anything with those 3 cards this turn is slim to none. The end result is you drew 4 cards (your draw being 1) and passed turn. For a deck with no real answers to anything the last thing you really want to do is just give them a turn.

[Curby]

That just doesn't seem optimized at all. Can you explain the differences between a more accepted build? Why run Forked Bolt when you don't run 16 3-for-1s? Also, taking out a 3-for-1 spell and adding a 2-for-1 (T.Wrath) is just horrible. See my posts above for why T.Wrath will do an average of 2 damage and not 5.

@Jares, I'm pretty sure a vanilla five damage for 2R would be playable in Burn. Though other 3-drops such as Vortex and Fallout might edge it out, the power level is pretty good. The card drawing outcome is what Burn generally doesn't want, and the opponent's choice makes that even worse.

I agree that the low investment into Devil by itself decreases the consequences of a worst case outcome, but it's still there. The later the game goes, the lesser impact a non-hasty creature has on the field, and therefore the more likely it is that it will be a 4/3 that even if it were free, would not help you win the game. We can all agree that it's better than Figure of Destiny, but some of us don't run Figure of Destiny for precisely for the same reason: low impact on a developed board.

We're starting to repeat ourselves again.

how could a 4/3 for 1 not be attractive? Is power creep that out of control now?

I'd love it if Lava Spike dealt 4, and I'd at least consider a vanilla 4/3 for R. The problem is that Vexing Devil is neither of these, and your opponent has a choice. It's better than Browbeat because it only costs 1, but the consequences of giving an opponent a choice in the matter does in fact need testing and consideration.

[Kich867]

Of course it's attractive, but attractive and practical are entirely different. Burn is all about consistency and efficiency, and the inconsistency of the card robs it of efficiency. Again, the average T.Wrath seen by burn will do roughly 2.5 damage by turn 8, and less damage in every game that ends before then. It's worse than a vanilla bolt in the vast majority of games you'll play, and that's independent of whether you run 1 or 4 or any other nonzero number.

Would you play a red Sorcery for R that said, "If your life total is 1, deal 20 damage to target player"? Hell, would you play it if it had zero cost? It might work in a certain combo deck, but not Burn. Likewise, T.Wrath might make sense in UR Delver, but not Burn.

Likening Vexing Demon to Browbeat is a poor comparison. While they're functionally similar, you're looking at gross overbudgeting on either end. The closest existing creature to Vexing Demon as a creature is Isamaru at 2/2 for 1 white mana. The closest thing to it as a burn is 3 damage for 1 mana, Lava Spike.

When you look at any card in all the worst possible positions few stand out--you know what's actually kind of a bad card? Goblin Guide, people let the trigger resolve and then kill it all day. If it's by itself it often dies and doesn't accomplish much, as a late game top-deck it doesn't actually do anything.

But it applies a lot of pressure early, it's something that 100% must be answered or shit gets really real, real quick. Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders, these don't really have that feeling. By the time they even come out and can swing you just need a blocker, any blocker, and it's fine. But this card imposes drastic consequences on the opponent on turn 1.

If they take 4, you just straight up 1 mana flame rifted them with no drawback. Yeah. Put me in the camp where that shit happens a lot because that sounds fucking awesome. This also lets you know that they straight up don't have removal--go time Keldon Marauders / Goblin Guides, let loose, save your burns for turns 3 and 4 when you can play cards that get more value the longer they're in play while they -can- be in play.

If they let it resolve, they have removal, or they intend to chump block it to survive (silly decision but, who knows). That's fine too. They have removal, they'll hit him with it, and that's ok, because if it was a guide you'd only be gaining 2 life, you -might- get 2 damage out of the guide before it dies, which isn't fantastic.

But surprisingly enough, not everyone will always have a bolt or a swords in hand to deal with it. And if they do that's ok, because any other creature you put in this spot would have died too.

It's too powerful of a card to not pretty much auto-include it. It's either the strongest 1 drop in the game (maybe even better than delver) or it's the most cost efficient burn printed thus far.

[jares]

how could a 4/3 for 1 not be attractive? Is power creep that out of control now?

It might just be my understanding (or misunderstanding) of the game plan of U/R Delver, but in that deck's case, having a Lava Spike isn't as important as having a creature in play that would be able to deal consistent damage. This is why Lava Spike isn't used in that deck - and that's essentially what Vexing Devil would be when played in that deck, a more powerful Lava Spike (that you won't even be able to target using Snapcaster Mage).

Do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Cheers,
jares

[RogueBuild]

That just doesn't seem optimized at all. Can you explain the differences between a more accepted build? Why run Forked Bolt when you don't run 16 3-for-1s? Also, taking out a 3-for-1 spell and adding a 2-for-1 (T.Wrath) is just horrible. See my posts above for why T.Wrath will do an average of 2 damage and not 5.

@Jares, I'm pretty sure a vanilla five damage for 2R would be playable in Burn. Though other 3-drops such as Vortex and Fallout might edge it out, the power level is pretty good. The card drawing outcome is what Burn generally doesn't want, and the opponent's choice makes that even worse.

I agree that the low investment into Devil by itself decreases the consequences of a worst case outcome, but it's still there. The later the game goes, the lesser impact a non-hasty creature has on the field, and therefore the more likely it is that it will be a 4/3 that even if it were free, would not help you win the game. We can all agree that it's better than Figure of Destiny, but some of us don't run Figure of Destiny for precisely for the same reason: low impact on a developed board.

We're starting to repeat ourselves again.

I have a personal dislike for Lava Spike, it wasn't that long ago it was still in my SB to be used only against Combo when I knew my only chance to win was on turn 3 if they failed to get a good hand and go off already. It's too narrow. If I am going to run something that narrow it needs in my mind to give more bang. Lava Spike is just a really bad wanna-be Lightning Bolt. Forked Bolt at lest lets be hit player or creature for 2, or 2 targets for 1 each. If you look at the overall of my deck and see that I am not backing myself into a corner with no answers the fact I would prefer Forked Bolt over Lava Spike shouldn't be a surprise.

As for Thunderous Wrath the only time it is bad is in your opening hand or 1st draw. Yes, there is a risk to running it, but there is a risk to everything we run. PoP is dead if they run all basics or just play around it. Smash to Smithereens is dead if they don't play an art, even if they have arts in the deck. So you don't want it to be in your opening hand or your 1st draw. Any other time its a 5 for 1 bomb. I only plan to run 3, that's 1 in 20 cards and I don't want it to be in the top 8. Those are not bad odds at all, not as good as RU Delver, but certainly worth testing and math looks good on paper.

[Kich867]

It might just be my understanding (or misunderstanding) of the game plan of U/R Delver, but in that deck's case, having a Lava Spike isn't as important as having a creature in play that would be able to deal consistent damage. This is why Lava Spike isn't used in that deck - and that's essentially what Vexing Devil would be when played in that deck, a more powerful Lava Spike (that you won't even be able to target using Snapcaster Mage).

Do correct me if I'm wrong, though.

Cheers,
jares

If I were to play UR Delver again I would run lava spike over Snapcaster Mage.

What is snapcaster mage other than a 3-4 mana 3-4 damage spell? People tried to make it counter-burn, with enough control and enough burn to win. But (I'm not sure if you've delved deep into the thread, it was actually fairly recently though) I outlined why the deck in it's current iteration that people are playing is quite bad. Zilla, I believe, is one of the few advocates of how the deck actually should play (that is, identical in theory to burn).

UR Delver often draws hands that are either mostly control (in which, I agree, you sit there and hope you can keep your creature alive)--except this doesn't work because that 2/2 goblin guide isn't going to get there, it's not getting 10 swings in, and you aren't keeping your one flipped delver alive, you have no burn backup and it feels terrible.

OR. You draw exclusively burns with no creature backup, given that the deck is -trying- to be counterburn this poses a problem (that isn't posed in RUW Sligh or Burn) because even if you brainstorm, you often hit things like Daze or Spell Pierce and by the time your creatures can be useful it's too late. It doesn't run enough burn to kill them and the creatures are -very- dead at that point.

If I were to play the deck again, the only blue in the deck would be Delver of Secrets, Brainstorm, and maybe (maybe) daze. Daze is good in the opening hand, so maybe a 2-of so that people play around it and have to fear it, but no more. It's an atrocious top-deck. I would almost argue that the Devil almost pushes Steppe Lynx out as a valid creature.

People naturally don't want you to have threats down and when you go turn 1 delver, it flips on turn 2 into Vexing Demon / Bolt, I mean, how would you handle that? Do you sword the delver, then take 7 from demon / bolt? Do you let the demon resolve and hope to find another sword/bolt in time before it starts whacking away at you? You can't keep the creatures down unless you keep a hand stocked full of removal, and if you kept a hand stocked full of removal then you're going to die to burns either way.

I mean, personally, if you take like a "standard" burn list, switch like.. keldon marauders for demons and hellspark's for delvers, then flip flame rift to brainstorm and maybe 1 pop and 1 fireblast for dazes, that sounds solid to me. This creates a list that doesn't rely on your creatures at all to get there. Brainstorm EOT into untapping for 10 damage happens, and it's not particularly rare.

[baghdadbob]

OMFG I just wet myself when I saw that devil. There is absolutely no reason not to play 4x in burn i.m.o. Insane.

[jares]

If I were to play UR Delver again I would run lava spike over Snapcaster Mage.

What is snapcaster mage other than a 3-4 mana 3-4 damage spell? People tried to make it counter-burn, with enough control and enough burn to win. But (I'm not sure if you've delved deep into the thread, it was actually fairly recently though) I outlined why the deck in it's current iteration that people are playing is quite bad. Zilla, I believe, is one of the few advocates of how the deck actually should play (that is, identical in theory to burn).

UR Delver often draws hands that are either mostly control (in which, I agree, you sit there and hope you can keep your creature alive)--except this doesn't work because that 2/2 goblin guide isn't going to get there, it's not getting 10 swings in, and you aren't keeping your one flipped delver alive, you have no burn backup and it feels terrible.

OR. You draw exclusively burns with no creature backup, given that the deck is -trying- to be counterburn this poses a problem (that isn't posed in RUW Sligh or Burn) because even if you brainstorm, you often hit things like Daze or Spell Pierce and by the time your creatures can be useful it's too late. It doesn't run enough burn to kill them and the creatures are -very- dead at that point.

If I were to play the deck again, the only blue in the deck would be Delver of Secrets, Brainstorm, and maybe (maybe) daze. Daze is good in the opening hand, so maybe a 2-of so that people play around it and have to fear it, but no more. It's an atrocious top-deck. I would almost argue that the Devil almost pushes Steppe Lynx out as a valid creature.

People naturally don't want you to have threats down and when you go turn 1 delver, it flips on turn 2 into Vexing Demon / Bolt, I mean, how would you handle that? Do you sword the delver, then take 7 from demon / bolt? Do you let the demon resolve and hope to find another sword/bolt in time before it starts whacking away at you? You can't keep the creatures down unless you keep a hand stocked full of removal, and if you kept a hand stocked full of removal then you're going to die to burns either way.

I mean, personally, if you take like a "standard" burn list, switch like.. keldon marauders for demons and hellspark's for delvers, then flip flame rift to brainstorm and maybe 1 pop and 1 fireblast for dazes, that sounds solid to me. This creates a list that doesn't rely on your creatures at all to get there. Brainstorm EOT into untapping for 10 damage happens, and it's not particularly rare.

It looks like your U/R Delver build will surely benefit from Vexing Devil. Thanks for the input.

Having said all that, and given that you're right, I believe that the U/R Delver thread will require a new primer soon. In fact, Burn will also probably need its own revamped primer soon!

I fully expected to see something splashy after seeing 42 cards in the spoiler lists and only one red card (though Thunderous Wrath did make its own noise). Moving forward, though, I expect that anything else from the new set that would be able to objectively "fit" into Burn would be a very pleasant surprise - and we haven't even seen a single burn spell with cmc 3 or less, something that almost every set historically has.

Fun times.

Cheers,
jares

[Marke]

Vexing devil is a nice design because it let's people think it's good while it's a horrible card for older formats. A good skill tester so to say.

People look at the possibility of a 4/3 for 1 and think it's awesome but that is simply the wrong line of thought. Even if this was 6/6 or so it wouldn't be that awesome.. Cards where your opponent can choose are always worse the worst of the options they have.
Early on this will always be four damage to the dome for 1, not bad but not so spectacular it's worth the backfire that can happen later. When you play this looking to burn out your opponent they will just let it be a creature and you're screwed... Turn 3 and onwards for example this will rarely do the four damage and only makes your deck interact with them when you don't want to.

Cards with options where the worst option (R for 4 to the dome here) are marginally better then an other card (lava spike) are mostly not worth it because your opponent will just choose the improved lava spike most times unless that creature is really not going to help you. It would be fun if they had printed this card as a 10/10 for R, even then it might not have been playable just because this is just a more effecient lavaspike with the drawback of not working all the time...
Just like browbeat this will be a slightly more efficient burn spell early on but a terrible tempo card later on which is exactly when you NEED tempo. What good is a super efficient but slow card when you need to burn your opponent before they alpha strike or combo you?

Funny how these cards where the opponent can choose are vastly overrated though