TimeWalk 2.0 Stillbirth?

[Tao]

I don't understand the recent trend in this thread to call Temporal Mastery unplayable. Quite frankly I think you have no clue what the hell you are talking about. It has a restriction but that restriction is pretty ...restricted. It is only bad if all of those

- it is in the Top 8 (9 otd) cards of your library
- you have no Brainstorm/Jace and die before you get to use it with one
- you have no FoW to use it with! (haven't seen anyone mention this but being pitchable to FoW is a pretty big upside for such a card)

are true. If those are not the case the card is pretty much exclusively upside which is rare for a card. The upside ranges from free cycle (which isn't exactly upside but oh well), very likely upgraded to a free Explore, possibly a free Relentless Assault, a free PW activation, a free use of all but two lands and any combination of those. So you will usually get something out of the extra turn and possibly much more. Both the free Mana and the free combat phase can easily be game breaking.
From a certain point in a game you just play with 4 Time Walk in the deck which raises the topdeck quality by miles. An upside of the card to the actual Time Walk is that you can cast it at Instant speed via Brainstorm or Sensei's Top, for example during their EoT, which seems pretty devastating.

IMO the card is at least extremely good, but probably banworthy.

[Smmenen]

Do you really think a deck with Jace and Top has room and time to durdle around with more slow, conditional cards that require a lot of setup?

If this sees play, it will be in some sort of Ux beatdown deck with Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm. And there it will be largely luck based. This is not really a Spike mechanic.

LMAO

How does this card require "alot of setup"?

The setup this card requires is: BRAINSTORM + two mana for your next draw.

Seems pretty unconditional to me.

Here's the facts Ma'am:

People will now routinely be taking MULTIPLE turns in a row in legacy. Get used to it.

[socialite]

Stop hyping Steve; it isn't that good. ;)

[Smmenen]

I'm not saying it will be dominant, but it's a laugh when people try to describe how 'conditional' this card is in a format in which Brainstorm is legal and unrestricted.

This card is incredibly easy to pull off.

I think there is a good chance it will be banned, not because of 'dominance' but because when a player takes 3 turns in a row -- which WILL happen OFTEN enough in SCG tournaments -- that will be 'unfun' for the format.

[dahcmai]

It will see play in High Tide, I can say that now with confidence. That's worth a proxy up to see what you think. Just pull out some of the chaff cantrip draw that were kind of fillers anyway. Getting that extra land before turn 4 is well worth it. Hell, I was testing Retraced Image at one time just to get that extra mana before turn 4. This doesn't give up the card and let's you untap the lands you used to cast it. That's pretty hot. Casting it for full price as a Turnabout isn't the most horrible thing ever to top it off.

It may not be really, really, emergency ban me busted, but it sure is really damned good. It'll be staying in my deck. Well, once I get some actual ones. I'll wait for the price to drop though. It's not $40 good. It's about $20 good. Then again, it's a mythic.


I do agree with you on that unfun part and especially on the "will happen often". It's kind of a gimme.

[MirrorMask]

I voted for a ban even before becoming legal. Why? Well you guys (at least most of you) are trying to just incorporate it in an existing deck. What about becoming a deck on its own that BRUTALLY abuses endless/near endless turns and smashing your face every game? I really don't think its too hard to be done as we are talking about a freaking TIME WALK here! There is a reason it is restricted in Vintage. Imagine having 4 plus 4 personal tutors=8 time walks + other really scary stuff (just an idea). The abuse probability seems to be really high.
In the existing archetypes only High Tide seems to be really benefited by it right now unless things generally change so much that almost every deck uses it (which I doubt).
On the other hand those who voted for a "test it and then ban if necessary" aren't wrong. Maybe I am wrong and this card turns to be nothing spectacular even though it is potentially a time walk. Who knows?

[Vacrix]

I'm not saying it will be dominant, but it's a laugh when people try to describe how 'conditional' this card is in a format in which Brainstorm is legal and unrestricted.

This card is incredibly easy to pull off.

I think there is a good chance it will be banned, not because of 'dominance' but because when a player takes 3 turns in a row -- which WILL happen OFTEN enough in SCG tournaments -- that will be 'unfun' for the format.

Incredibly easy to pull off? Not necessarily. You need Brainstorm. If you try it with Ponder or SDT then you can't fetch to have the mana to even play it as you have to play it as its drawn, you can't respond to drawing it (pretty sure).

Also, asking that you have a Brainstorm in hand is kinda restrictive as it is. What if your opponent plays a Duress effect and you have to Brainstorm in response to hide Jace or something? What if you have to use the Brainstorm with a fetchland to throw away bad card? Temporal Mastery sure has synergy with Brainstorm but you'll probably lose if you are waiting with it in hand just to get one Time Walk.. especially in a control deck that has trouble abusing the combat phase. Ticking up on Jace doesn't count because then that just win more; you already have Jace.

[Tao]

@vacrix: Not sure if I understand your point, but I think you forget about the draw from the draw step, which is the draw you will usually cast it with.

[kusumoto]

I voted for a ban even before becoming legal. Why? Well you guys (at least most of you) are trying to just incorporate it in an existing deck. What about becoming a deck on its own that BRUTALLY abuses endless/near endless turns and smashing your face every game? I really don't think its too hard to be done as we are talking about a freaking TIME WALK here! There is a reason it is restricted in Vintage. Imagine having 4 plus 4 personal tutors=8 time walks + other really scary stuff (just an idea). The abuse probability seems to be really high.
In the existing archetypes only High Tide seems to be really benefited by it right now unless things generally change so much that almost every deck uses it (which I doubt).
On the other hand those who voted for a "test it and then ban if necessary" aren't wrong. Maybe I am wrong and this card turns to be nothing spectacular even though it is potentially a time walk. Who knows?

How exactly are these endless/near endless turns happening?

[socialite]

How exactly are these endless/near endless turns happening?

I dono man but we better ban it before it happens fo sure.

[Anusien]

LMAO

How does this card require "alot of setup"?

The setup this card requires is: BRAINSTORM + two mana for your next draw.

Seems pretty unconditional to me.

Here's the facts Ma'am:

People will now routinely be taking MULTIPLE turns in a row in legacy. Get used to it.

I got caught in the way other people were talking about the card, setting it up with Jace and Brainstorm and crap instead of just drawing it.

[death]

Frankly I don't see the card making High Tide any better. It's a worse replacement for Candles/Explore/Remand, the miracle requirement is a big issue. Oftentimes it's a FoW fodder without Brainstorm, scrying into it through Ponder/Preordain is possible but not very likely. And once you've piled up High Tides you wouldn't want to pass the turn.

How exactly are these endless/near endless turns happening?

Not with Personal Tutor but with Doomsday. A perfect 7 would look something like: Swamp, Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Mox Diamond, Juzam Djinn, Doomsday.

1 - Swamp, rit, rit, Mox, Juzam, Doomsday

-top pile-
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Mastery
Berserk
-bottom-

2 - draw and cast TM, swing. Repeat x4 to deal 30 damage

[Vacrix]

@vacrix: Not sure if I understand your point, but I think you forget about the draw from the draw step, which is the draw you will usually cast it with.

Sure but I was referring to set-up. Everytime you draw it won't necessarily be a good Time Walk you know. Sometimes you'll want to save it in your hand that way you can actually take advantage of it in the future. Say you are sitting on 2 lands on turn 3 and in your drawstep you draw the Time Walk. So you play it, and take an extra turn.. but you can't drop a land because you don't have one in hand.

All you did is cycle the card for 1U to draw. You didn't take advantage of the combat phase unless you dropped a creature on that turn and even if you did, who cares its at most 3 damage from a Delver. Seriously everyone is overvaluing a turn largely because the real Time Walk is fucking amazing but thats only if you can play it at your convenience.

Its no different than playing a game of chess. If you can move your Queen into an ideal position and then take a powerful piece with an extra turn, then I'd say that would be a pretty beastly move. But if you need to move your pawn out of the way to even move your Queen, and then you move it out... what did your extra turn really help you accomplish? Nothing.

Natural drawing it in the mid or late game can be more deadly. The point is if its dead in your hand, which will happen I guarantee you, then you'll need a Brainstorm to get it out of your hand and back into the deck to set-up the Time Walk. Otherwise, your tapping out on turn 7 to play the worst cantrip ever printed.

[Oiolosse]

Hmm, after reading and thinking it really does change the way you play.

You couldn't use Brainstorm to draw then crack fetch, to hide cards from discard, to dig late game...because you'd be torn to abuse Timewalk 2.0.


Scenario: I EoT Brainstorm hoping to shuffle crap and draw into some business. But wait! I draw 2 useless cards and Timewalk 2.0. I can't crack the fetch right now because I have to abuse Timewalk (or else why did I put it in here, Brainstorm was the impetus right?), so I Timewalk during my turn and, what, untap and draw into what I know is useless?

It's unplayable in a counterbalance control deck. Top is mana intensive enough. Mana for spinning to counter and then mana to put Timewalk 2.0 on top of library. That would feel clumsy and probably be flat out untenable.

I will still test it, but probably in a bant shell. I think when you start to use it for an additional attack then, yeah, it's pretty damn good.

[Vacrix]

Exactly.

And then your opponent plays Thoughtseize and what do you do? Obviously you Brainstorm in response and put the 2 Time Walks on top because they are fucking awesome right? Then you take 2 extra turns, don't drop any lands because you don't have any, and you cantrip once with your 3rd land after the 2nd Time Walk. Nothing to creme your pants about.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not saying it will be dominant, but it's a laugh when people try to describe how 'conditional' this card is in a format in which Brainstorm is legal and unrestricted.

Brainstorm is so powerful because it makes decks more consistent. Needing it to make a card useful instead of dead in hand runs contrary to this.

You can rely on blind drawing it when you want it and not opening it in your grip. This plan seems marginally better than just running Stitch in Time.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Frankly I don't see the card making High Tide any better. It's a worse replacement for Candles/Explore/Remand, the miracle requirement is a big issue. Oftentimes it's a FoW fodder without Brainstorm, scrying into it through Ponder/Preordain is possible but not very likely. And once you've piled up High Tides you wouldn't want to pass the turn.



Not with Personal Tutor but with Doomsday. A perfect 7 would look something like: Swamp, Swamp, Ritual, Ritual, Mox Diamond, Juzam Djinn, Doomsday.

1 - Swamp, rit, rit, Mox, Juzam, Doomsday

-top pile-
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Mastery
Temporal Mastery
Berserk
-bottom-

2 - draw and cast TM, swing. Repeat x4 to deal 30 damage

I can't tell who's trolling in this thread, but I really hope for your sake you are.

[lordofthepit]

I don't think anyone doubts that Temporal Mastery will occasionally be insane. A conditional Time Walk is in fact a Time Walk if the conditions are met, and that card is on the Vintage restricted list for good reason.

However, this isn't simply "as good as a Time Walk as long as it's not in your opening hand". Consider the following situations:
- You draw it in your first two draw steps.
- You are playing with Canadian Threshold, and you carefully use Wastelands and the threat of Stifle to stunt your opponent's mana development. Suddenly, you rip Temporal Mastery off the top of your deck, and you figure you might as well crack your fetchlands in response to the Miracle trigger so you don't have a dead card in hand. Your opponent now cracks a fetchland in response, plays a Brainstorm, puts chaff on the bottom of his library, shuffles it away with his second Brainstorm, Pierces your Time Walk, and now has found a grip of lands to allow him to reach the midgame and overwhelm you.
- You are playing against Canadian Threshold and play carefully around Stifle. You rip Temporal Mastery off the top of your library, and you go for the Miracle trigger. You get blow out a double Stifle and eat by a buffed up Nimble Mongoose for 5 turns while looking for land.
- Your opening hand contains a Temporal Mastery, but fortunately, you have a Brainstorm. You make your first land drop and carefully place your Temporal Mastery so you can get a tempo boost on your third turn. Your opponent Wastes your nonbasic on his Turn 2, and now you're stuck with a Temporal Mastery and just blew your Brainstorm for weak effect.
- You are entering your turn 4, and you still have 2 lands in hand. You rip a Temporal Mastery off the top of your deck! Sweet, Time Walk! You play it for its Miracle cost during your draw step after the trigger resolves, only to get hit by a Spell Pierce. You are unable to pay for the Pierce since you did not have an opportunity to make your land drop before playing Temporal Mastery. (There are countless more examples where having to play Temporal Mastery on your draw step is a liability).
- You are facing a pretty aggressive deck that has good pressure from the beginning and rip a Temporal Mastery off the top of your deck. You eat a Vendilion Clique in response to the Miracle trigger, or that trigger gets Stifled. Technically, you didn't lose card advantage (or even gained it in the case of Stifle), but you just took a fatal beating with respect to tempo.
- You Ponder/Preordain into chaff, so you decide to either shuffle your library or move your top two to the bottom. You rip a blind Temporal Mastery. Nice cantrips.

That being said, there will be instances where you simply draw into Temporal Mastery naturally, or you're able to use cantrips to set up those cards correctly. You'll get your extra turns, and occasionally, you'll even be able to make a lot of use out of the extra untap, attack, and planeswalker activation to absolutely blowout your opponent. But there are a lot of hidden costs to Temporal Mastery, including constraints on your deck design, which I have not even begun to cover. It is nowhere close to Time Walk, and setting up Miracle isn't as simple as playing enough cantrips.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I don't know what Time Walk does in Vintage, but do people play Cube? Because I don't think you'll find a lot of people who Cube regularly that will list Time Walk as a particularly strong first pick. I mean it's good, it's a fine card and if you can support blue reasonably you'll often run it, maybe even as your sole splash once in a while, but it's not worth bending over backwards for the way, say, a card like Ancestral Recall or Skullclamp is.

The important thing to remember about Time Walk is that it's only really good when you're able to do something else meaningful the turn you cast Time Walk. Otherwise it's just a free cycle. That turn when you're already committing two mana has to mean something else.

Now a free cycle isn't terrible. Time Walk makes up for the fact that it's not always amazing by always being, at worst, a wash, usually a free Explore at least. This is part of why it's so deservedly banned in Legacy, which I think much more resembles the power level of Cube than it does Vintage (the one oddity being the existence of combo, but in these archetypes Temporal Mastery seems quite bad for reasons already gone over.)

The problem, from the perspective of people complaining about how OP even a conditional Time Walk is, is that the conditional aspect of this card strips away the "always decent" aspect of the card. Because it requires some setup to be reasonably or reliably cast, Temporal Mastery will often be a dead card in your opening grip or your next two draws. That's 9 out of the maybe 11 cards you can rely on getting to see in an average Legacy game, and having one or more tossed aside just reduces your chances of living to see more. And for this risk you get a card that might do nothing still but be an Explore while you sit on no board or staring at an untapped army of blockers on the opponent's side.

So while Temporal Mastery seems to people to be a very cheap card, in effect I expect it to play more often, if it's to be powerful, as a more mid-rangey card and for that, no more powerful than, say, a lot of planeswalkers or equipment. Rather less, I imagine. Keep in mind that this effect sees absolutely no play in Legacy at five mana, and in fact Time Warp has barely ever even breached Standard play when it's been legal.

You also have the problem that whereas Time Walk lets you time it to best effect, when your opponent's pants are down, a naturally drawn Temporal Mastery has no such benefit.

In short, extra turns are useful but have a finite value. Perhaps for want of the mechanic showing up more often (for what it's worth, I thought I made a compelling argument that it should be a red mechanic during the GDSII, but God forbid Wizards take a shred of pie away from blue, even if it makes no sense flavor wise...), people are unfamiliar with what that value is, but given the conditions the card imposes I think there's scant reason for all the pants-shitting that seems to be going on atm. Perhaps anyone who's ever had a High Tide opponent tap out to cast and resolve a Meditate can verify this.

Or in shorter:

Sometimes Sinkhole or fuck, Shadow of Doubt is a two mana Time Walk. Doesn't mean those cards are busted or even good.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I think more an issue than what IBA said is what cards are you cutting for Mastery?
Are you cutting counters? Are you cutting Creatures? Are you cutting Lands? Are you cutting Utility?

No matter what your answer the net result is that every time you end up with Mastery in your opening grip you aren't getting that card. Drawing Mastery is nice, but if the card you cut for it was the creature or spell that would have won you the game otherwise where did Mastery get you.

The fact of the matter is sometimes Mastery is just going to be "go through the motions twice." Sometimes you are going to untap, draw it, cast it, then realize you weren't in a position to attack anyways and you don't have another land so you just go straight to next turn. 4x Mastery is 4x other cards not in your library. If the 4 cards you replace were business then you just watered down the very fabric of what makes Time Walk good in the first place.

Granted the card could be good, hell it could be bonkers. I know I'm not stoked to play against it. At the same time though it's probably not an auto-include in every blue deck and it definitely doesn't warrant Personal Tutoring for.