What's even more important is that Jace the Mindsculptor became quite unreliable as a wincondition because the amount of burnspells rocketed with the appearence of Delver of Secrets. Besides, there's the Punishing Fire plan which is used by most of the Maverick decks these days and which basically invalids Planeswalker (or Jace at least) as a wincondition in general.
Deleted.
Last edited by igri_is_a_bk; 04-14-2012 at 04:53 AM.
We have people worrying about Punishing Fire decks now? This is Mono Blue Control we're talking about! Every Mono Blue Control deck should be running 4 Back to Basics in the maindeck - no exceptions. Any deck that relies on Punishing Fire gets trucked by B2B! And if you're not playing 4 Back to Basics in the maindeck, then why are you playing Mono Blue Control at all? You might as well just play Landstill or some other U/W/x control deck that can play dual lands.Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
Here's a list I have been playing for ~2 years now and have had quite a bit of success with (no major tournaments however, I lack the time/funds, but I'm sure this would do well, especially in the current metagame):
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
13 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Ancestral Vision
2 Fact or Fiction
4 Spell Snare / Spell Pierce (depending on meta & pref)
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Mana Leak
4 Engineered Explosives
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics
4 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
sb:
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Dream Tides
- The fetchlands and Mountain/Forest are in there solely to support Engineered Explosives. Alternatively, you can play 4 Powder Keg or 4 Ratchet Bomb instead of the EE, and then not have to use fetchlands at all. However, Explosives is a bit faster and helps to deal with Delver of the Secrets decks a little bit better. It also evades Krosan Grip better because you can play it and pop it without passing priority. Fetchlands also make Jace +0 ability stronger. BUT I have had success with both versions - w/ fetchlands + EE and w/o fetchlands + PK.
Where is Temporal Mastery?
I haven't even begun to consider the use of that new spell. You'd have to play Brainstorm to make it work, and then you'd need to take out 8 cards just to play it. What do you take out? Counters? I don't think there's room to support Brainstorm+Mastery in a deck that needs every slot to be devoted to either: a.) card draw or b.) answers
Where is Brainstorm? I'm guessing Ancestral > Brainstorm > Mastery.
edit: nvm beat me to it.
In Mono Blue Control, Ancestral Vision is superior to Brainstorm. You can't count on having fetchlands AND brainstorm, and without fetchlands, brainstorm is nothing but a cycler.
One possibility is removing the 4 Ancestral Vision for 4 Brainstorm, then playing Temporal Mastery in place of Mana Leak or Fact or Fiction. I haven't done any testing with this new card yet, but if i were to test it, I would do this.
Last edited by MGB; 04-13-2012 at 11:54 AM.
I think these two cards will be played in legacy, and you need to consider them as your enemies
and
we need LIFEGAIN between main and sideboard otherwise we are gonna lose to any deck running burn spells (or something to protect us from burn spells).
so we need to splash W for swords to plowshares maindeck and some lifegain card in the side (such as timely reinforcements, kitchen finks o circle of protection)
Another aspect I would consider is that timewalk effect allows you not only to make a second land drop, but also to have a further attack phase. so if you decide not to use creatures, you are not optimizine timewalk effect. so, we better use snapcaster too.
I would suggest something like that
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 marsh flats
9 island
2 plains
1 swamp
1 tundra
4 snapcaster mage
4 jace tms
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 temporal mastery
4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 Swords to plowshares
2 engineered explosives
2 BtB
2 V.Shackles
side:
3 meddling mage
3 spell pierce
2 vendilion clique
2 kitchen finxs
2 timely reinforcements
3 surgical extraction
with 8 cantrips, timewalk turn 2 is quite easy, so you can even jace turn 3 ...
If I'm not mistaken turn 2 Miracles can't happen without additional mana accel, since your oblidged to cast it in your draw phase (before you can play your second land):
"120.1. A player draws a card by putting the top card of his or her library into his or her hand. This is done as a turn-based action during each player’s draw step. It may also be done as part of a cost or effect of a spell or ability. If it is the first card drawn that turn, the player may reveal the card if it has the ability "Miracle". It stays revealed until the end of the draw step.
702.91a Miracle affects the way the card is drawn (see rule 120.1) allowing you to reveal it if it is the first card drawn that turn, and is a triggered ability (see rule 603.10). "Miracle [cost]" means "When you reveal this card while drawing it, you may cast it by paying [cost] rather than its mana cost."
I added the part about revealing it until the end of the draw step because I realized the card would currently be un-revealed between revealing it and casting it, so there would be no way to ensure it was the same object. This may be of no real significance, but it would still be an internal error if another card of the same name were to be cast instead."
Correct me if I'm wrong!
btw: I like the rest of your deck, though 2 Plains is 1 too many and that basic swamp should clearly be U.Sea or another Island.
See, the Burn thread doesn't actually explicitly state that the deck is mono-red, it's implied. And yet somehow, the burn thread is able to maintain that it really only cares about it being mono-red and splashing any other color wouldn't really make it burn. Or, more accurately, mono-red burn.
It kind of blows my mind when people go into a thread named "mono-blue control" and suggest adding another color to it. If you add another color to it, it's not mono-blue control. It's not a tier 1 deck, it's not really meant to be, the discussion also shouldn't be trying to push it into other colors when that's not what it does.
Back to Basics, maximizing the effectiveness of Force of Will, Jace, and the love of blue are the only reasons you're playing this deck. If you want to splash colors, if you want to add swords to plowshares, then what's stopping you from adding everything else that's white that is powerful? Why stop at just swords?
I agree about ancestral recall however. I'd like to see more lists running it. In regards to Vexing Devil and the Miracle burn, you won't run into many decks running the miracle burn. It's gimmicky, and while it's cool, it's actually hard to utilize well without a lot of setup, and cards that rely on a lot of setup aren't great choices because when you don't -have- that setup they're really bad. It's a powerful burn spell, but it comes at a pretty big cost. No one wants it in their opening hand and the decks that do want it don't run enough consistent deck manipulation to make it useful.
Vexing Devil, on the other hand, is scary as hell for this deck. It hates strong turn 1 plays because it takes too long to stabilize. If you let it resolve you're probably taking 8 before you can deal with it. If you don't, you're taking 4. Odds are, you should eat the devil to the face and hope they aren't on burn.
People should try playing the mono-blue list with Engineered Explosives and Shackles as the only creature control.
Sure, it's sometimes nice to have Swords to Plowshares early in the game against a cheap threat, but in the end, you can accomplish 90% of what Landstill does vs. creatures with 4 Explosives and 4 Shackles. You're just a little bit slower doing so, but often the power of a rock-steady manabase, Back to Basics, and an overwhelming number of counterspells makes up for that.
You run Engineered Explosives thus splashing for 2 additional colours.
Are you telling me that adding Swords to Plowshares + Snapcaster Mage too is bad beacuse you want to play pure mono U ???
(while E.E. is good because it is colorless even if you need non-blue mana to play him...)
Landstill is a control deck Uxy based on menland+standstill. not comparable.
I played a decent session yesterday. I probably got in 5-6 full matches, and won them all. I even beat UW Thopter Foundry after he resolved the combo for ~5 turns, so this deck has a seriously strong late game. I thought Thopter Foundry would have a better end game, but nope.
17 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
1 Ponder
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
3 Echoing Truth
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
//
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Spell Pierce
4 Curfew
Do you think the deck will use both Ancestral Visions and Temporal Mastery once it's legal? There's something about playing 4 Ancestral Recalls and 4 Time Walks that looks very appealing.
Let's see, what is there to talk about with the list... Echoing Truth. I know that card looks kinda vanilla, but something is going to slip through your 8 counterspells. Count on it. And the bounce utility is exceptionally strong when you have as much card advantage as this deck does. I always found time to bounce whatever I needed and still counter it without falling behind. Snapcaster helped greatly in accomplishing that.
Ancestral Visions is what keeps you in the game. Suspend it on turn one, and survive until it resolves, and I guarantee you'll find yourself ahead. It hits play right around the time you feel like your hand is dwindling too low and buries the opponent in CA. I can't sing its praises enough.
Back to Basics is still great. Even though the enemy fetches weakened it a bit, it'll still shut down at least half of their mana, in my experiences. It's completely dead in multiples, outside pitching to Force, so I only added three and I'm comfortable with that number right now. I played against 43 Lands online and the guy called me a cheater for playing B2B. Player Lost.
I'm loving 4 Clique and 4 Snapcaster. Finally, blue has some creatures it can cast before turn five that don't completely suck. Clique especially - it is like a counterspell that hits for 3 a turn. It fits the role of MUC's aggressor so well, I don't even know what to say.
From the board, Curfew is awesome against RUG Tempo (which I played twice), and along with EE, are the only outs this deck has to Nimble Mongoose. Flashing in Snapcaster to block before they have Threshold also worked pretty well at killing that little critter, but you need some support for g2 and g3. Plus, Curfew has great synergy with Snapcaster and Clique, since bouncing them is actually advantageous (especially Snappy).
I can say you don't need to splash other colors. There are plenty of options in blue, and besides, you aren't going to reliably get your one splashed basic land into play that often. If you have 4 fetches and 1 basic, that's less than 50% odds of seeing it in your opener and digging for the right colors is not what you should be wasting your time doing. You're slow enough, don't make yourself slower.
Adding Swords to Plowshares would necessitate playing dual-lands. You can't play 1 Plains and 4 Fetch and expect to cast it with regularity.
The reason EE works in Mono-Blue is because you can still cast it for 1 mana and make use of it. Thus, you are capable of only playing 2 non-islands and 8 fetches and not having to worry about not getting your colors.
Landstill is basically Mono Blue Control (same basic shell) that splashes W and/or other colors for creature / permanent control. Some people play Standstill as the draw engine, but others play Ancestral Vision in U/W/x "Landstill" control decks, just like Mono Blue Control.
I agree with everything you said, except the following:
- Echoing Truth is card disadvantage and should never be played in a control deck that cares about lasting into the late-game phase. It belongs only in a combo deck that doesn't care about card disadvantage as much as it cares about bouncing hate and winning. I'd rather just play a mass-removal spell such as Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives.
- I like Vendilion Clique alot, and have it as a 4-of in my sb, but against too many decks it is extremely mediocre, and doesn't really belong in the maindeck, imho. Against decks with lots of threat density that don't care if you send one of their spells to the bottom of their deck because they just draw another similar spell - like Zoo, or Goblins, or Burn, or RUG Tempo - it is nothing more than a 3/1 flier that will turn on their removal spells. It is obviously excellent vs. Control and Combo decks, however, and deserves to at least be in the SB. If you are in a metagame that has alot more Combo/Control than Aggro/Tempo decks, I guess playing Clique MD is justified.
Repeal is just better than Echoing Truth in MUC. With Repeal, you can do neat things like Repeal your own Snapcaster to save it from removal, play Snapcaster again to use Repeal on something they have, and you get to draw 2 from all that nonsense. That's a good bit of CA.
I understand Echoing Truth is card disadvantage. If you have Back to Basics or Vedalken Shackles in play, that may not be true. If you use Snapcaster on it, that's definitely not true. Considering all the card advantage spells in there (Vision, Snapcaster, Shackles, Jace), you can afford to bounce one spell a game. It just buys time that you desperately need.
You can't flashback Repeal because it has X in it, which will be 0. I had Repeal as my bounce spell originally, but I wanted something better with Snapcaster, so I went with Echoing Truth.
And E. Truth has random application against Storm (bouncing Goblins), Dredge (bouncing Zombies or Ichorids), and saved me against Thopter Foundry combo. It's also good at bouncing stuff like Batterskull and Jace, where Repeal isn't.
I disagree that Vendilion Clique is sideboard material. MUC's biggest problem is closing out the game, and Clique does that well. Attacking with Clique, Snappy, and Shackled guys - or -Jace's ultimate are the only ways you're going to win. I can't see myself cutting any of those cards, because I'll be stressing myself too much to protect my fewer win cons.
I have been thinking about running a build like this with the new Time Walk.
Lands - 23
17 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
Creatures - 7
3 Masticore
4 Vendilion Clique
Spells - 30
4 Brainstorm
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Temporal Mastery
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Back to Basics
3 Vedalken Shackles
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Going old school with Masticore because he can ping off all those x/1 and x/2 creatures for a little mana investment. We will have so much card advantage with Jace and AV that we can afford the downside.
I would drop some cliques out of there. Multiple cliques are kinda sketchy--your list looks a little dubious with only 8 counters in it. Top's are kind of useless as well, maybe go down to 1.
I would drop 2 cliques and 2 tops for some number of Spell Snare's and/or something else. Spell Snare is strong, however.
I dig Masticore, on the other hand. He seems actually like a really strong answer to a lot of blue's issues. Which is funny. People have moved so far away from these old cards that were designed to answer problems, and yet these problems never go away, so it only makes sense to go back to what worked, right? Masticore is naturally out of bolt range, he's got regen, and while his upkeep cost is kinda brutal, ancestral visions is ensuring serious cards in hand. Visions + Jace is a lot of cards.
Clique is one of the best creatures in the format. Using it as a win-con, you're not afraid if someone kills it, because this is a control deck, not an aggro-deck, so the legend-rule isn't a big deal. If someone kills one, just play another. No big deal.
Second, there's no point in running Top. Maybe if you were running Trinket Mage, but otherwise, 3-4 Tops are the way to go. Got multiples? Shuffle them away.
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