[Deck] The Rock

[damionblackgear]

You shouldn't be surprised, I live in MN I'll try to give a report but I wasn't in the best of conditions (hangover and TIRED!) and stopped writing on my cards so I'll have to remember most of it. That'll probably be a tonight thing.

It's ok if you don't like my list. Most people will tell you that it's a terrible way to run the list. It's worked perfectly well for me. It's almost the same list that THIS happened... and well as two other t32 finishes (Denver, x-2, and The last invitational x-2-1). So it's OK if you don't like it.

Now my question, Why don't you like it? You may see something that I didn't notice.

[SheepToken]

Hi, first of all, the fact that I didn't like the deck does not mean I didn't acknowledged the effort you put on it to made top 16, just for make things clear. Nice there.

Talking about the deck I didn't like to see BoP, Qasali, Tarmogoy and Ooze (great card btw) as singles with just 2 GSZ it seems so random to me, because, you are suppoused to run specific good single creatures because you have a playset of GSZ to rely on as a solid toolbox.

The moxes are blocking 3 slots on your md where can perfectly fit more threats, moxes are cool on an opening hand, but later we don't want to see them again, futher more with just 1 tarmogoyf (giving him +1 artifact for free of course).
Having a Bob/Stoneforge/GSZ on T1 doesn't compense that sacrifice (I don't count all the other 2 CMC because they are all singles and you can't rely on drawing them on your opening hand). Also I didn't like the fact you don't ran Hymns, great with the moxes plan.

On your sideboard; SoLaS, Canonist, Choke, Deed and Sylvan would be great if you have 2-3 White tutors there also, without them, you are just hoping to draw those singles, that doesn't seems a reliable sb imo.

Without any intention of being harsh or aggresive I just put my opinion on the board.
Hoping to read more posts from you. Huge Congrats to you for the top!

[damionblackgear]

Well, computer crashed 3 times so far so I'm going to put this plainly.. I am sorry if this comes off as upset. Please know it's with the computer, not with you.

Thank you for telling me what you didn't like. I mistook your intention as there was nothing more than you didn't like it and I apologize for misunderstanding. That's also part of the reason why I asked. I'll try to explain why I chose things but first, a quick thing on the board. The only true one-of in the board is the Deed. Everything else at least pairs with something in the main. Those things also cover things that are overlapped by others IE Cannonist + Teeg (3 things) or Choke + Wasteland.

The reason for those 1 of's in the main is simple. I don't think you need more than that. Ooze get's worse as you have more but is more vulnerable as you have fewer. Goyf isn't very strong in the format but is still great against some decks. If you cut it, your creatures are X/2's and Knights and extremely weak to even a pyroclasm effect (Cave-in). All of the cards are also redundant effects (Bird;Zenith=0, Goyf;Ooze;Knight, Pridemage;Pulse). As such, they are just tutor-able copies of their counterpart.

the Library in the board is simply there for 1 purpose. decks that are discard based. Discard can't do one thing, beat a topdeck. Going up to 2 Libraries and 2 Tops means that there are better chances of drawing one of these and using them to stay in a game.

On Hymn, I don't like drawing dead cards late. I use Liliana to keep their Hand in check, While I don't always have a Lili, they don't always have a hand (especially as some decks tend to go into topdeck mode and then stay that way). I've found that there are more times where Hymn would've been more of a drain (as each turn the hymn just sit's makes it's value decrease) than topdeck'd Moxen in the late game.

I use the moxen for their explosive starts and as an anti-moon tech. Between the Library's, Top's, Bob's, and Lili's I can make a later drawn moxen negligible/beneficial. Very rarely am I so far out of it that I can't do something with it (or to stop it from being).

If I was to cut the Moxen, I'd add: +1 1cc discard spell, +2 Diabolic Edict, and + Threat. I know that's 4 things in place of 3 but I would move a sword to the board. Edict would help deal with the Canadian thresh builds which have re-incorporated Mongoose.

Edit- **SPOILER** Killing Wave looks awesome. Will test when available. **SPOILER**

-----

For the report, This is going to be quick (Cause I'm really tired of typing it up, sorry guys). I started the day in Waterloo, IA. It's about 2-3 hours away from the event site. I had stayed with a friend who does not play magic and gone out the night before (got back at 4:30am...). I had a hangover and I was tired.

List

Round 1 vs Esper Stoneblade

I Force him to burn all of his removal and Counters, play a Knight and Lili. When he finally plays a Snapcaster I eat his yard with Bog.

Game 2, We get into a battle over his Batterskull, He opts to play Jace, I Choke him.

Round 2 vs Bug

He leads with Delta, so I leave my fetch un-cracked as he could be playing stifle and I don't have a 1cc spell. I do the same on 2 even though I've got bob as I don't have another land. He fetches my endstep and I do the same. I play Bob and start forcing his counters and removal. Lili makes sure his hand is nothing and Knight, Bob, and Library take the win.

Game 2, he misplays and Deed's for 3 thinking it would kill Lili, I play Choke.

round 3 vs Esper Stoneblade

We go into topdeck wars and he rips INSANE.

Game 2, I Thoughtseize him and see 1 creature and a Jitte... I think about it, he even tells me it's the mystic... I take the Jitte and proceed to battle my little heart out... but lose.

Round 4 vs Canadian Thresh,

Game 1, I'm behind the entire time. I'm forced to play spells before I'm ready to try and dull the pain but, Dazes make sure that the wounds continue to bleed out.

Game2, I decide on a course of blocks vs 2 Nimble Mongoose, 5/6 Tarmogoyf, and my Knight (6/6) that was mind harnessed. If I do it right, I live... I do it wrong and in doing so, change my life total from 15 to 11 making the attack lethal.

Round 5 vs Maverick

Funnest opponent EVER!!!

We play 3 games, I don't remember them well, outside of him STOMPING me into the dirt do to having 3 lands in hand and 1 being Arbor. I ended the game with 1 land in play.

Game 3 I lili's him out.

Round 6 vs Mud

My opponent decides to play a creature and I play Lili and kill it. Then go to town with a Knight. He's new to legacy so I suggest what he should board (moon effects as they are typically good against 3-color decks, mine being no different. Unfortunetly I get basic forest bird on the first turn with plains and Pulse in hand... He scoops when I waste him down to City with a Trinisphere out. I explain why the Sphere was a bad call after and give him some advise for the future.

Round 7 Vs Maverick

My opponent is the opposite of the maverick player from before. I sit down, introduce myself and mention that my night before was "funner" which he corrects to "more fun." I make mentions of dialects and acceptable speech patterns and explain that the only place proper grammar and use of actually is forced is in writing. He stays pretty quiet the rest of the match outside of him responding to his friend about how he's dominating the game, the next turn I killed EVERYTHING on his side (except 3 lands) and had a pulse on top with a Liliana at 1... That was game 3. Afterwards he kept trying to say that it was the Library I played after the second Liliana that beat him... Yup. It only show'd me the second Lili and Pulse.

Round 8 vs Bug

My opponent and I get called to one of the fake feature match tables. We laugh because we had just started to shuffle. I verbally jab him saying that maybe he shouldn't have gotten so famous. We had talked about our lists pretty much all tournament so there was a good idea of what to expect. PS. He knows the Chokes are coming as he knows that choke won Rounds 1 and 2 for me.

Game 1 he get's an early counterbalance which I play around by playing 1cc discard into 2cc spell (library first). Eventually I play Lili to kill his Ooze and then Pulse to kill his Counterbalance. he's got a Thrun on the board and sowers my Ooze (6/6, tapped) vs Batterskull and Knight (5/5). He's at 1 life with no open green... I forget to attack. he starts shaking his head asking if this is how he falls (we were having fun and have a little gaming history). The next turn I waste his only other green source and fetch with knight to find removal for the Sower... It shows. From there it's pretty much downhill.

Game 2 I play Bob which he Darkblasts, I have a second and decide to play it as a Timewalk (with mill 3 built in). He dredges (2 Trops in the dredge!) the Darkblast and misses his land drop (Timewalk achieved). I untap and start play Liliana (she get's pulsed later) and Library. He fetches Bayou knowing I have Choke, I waste the Bayou and continue with the gameplan. Eventually I land a choke with him having only 2 lands (one is an island) and take over. We both finish top 32.

Ending Record 6-2.

Pro's -
Choke! 3 matches to choke.
Charles City, IA - for having the festival that we drank at.
Starcity's website - for having more than the address of the site... there are 2, 700 Grand Avenues in downtown Des Moines
H2O - For being there for me after every round.

Con's -
Making bad Blocks
Going to the wrong event site...
Not eating all day until after the event ended.
Getting called over by the head judge after a match and not remembering the person I was asked about.
Story City, IA - For not having a bookstore!

Changes? Already marked, you can check the Google doc in my signature if you're interested. You only need to pay attention to the first column of the list.

[SheepToken]

Nice report there. I've been wondering. Which ones are your worsest matchs? Any match you've always think that it's a loss? Could talk about (if there are any) changes in your deck right now?

[damionblackgear]

Which ones are your worsest matchs?

Canadian Thresh is probably the worst match-up I played against.

The Maverick decks I played weren't the one with Fauna Shaman, ironically that makes the deck harder even though they have fewer creatures per activation.

MUD's disruption is based on making other decks play fair, this deck already is. So, their disruption isn't really helpful game 1 and Moons are the only thing cared about post board (hence the moxen).

BUG can be tricky, it's all based on if they get a Lili out (she's very painful if you're not ready) or are playing Deed. Without one of the two, it's a cake walk. It's also helpful that Bob is black... this is also the reason that I don't play Ghastly Demise.

Any match you've always think that it's a loss?

Belchor. It's just a countdown to when they draw that last piece. Your prayer is that they go Goblins, then you can pulse, but it's still only a couple draws away from belching you.

TES and ANT can just fizzle while going off and that's your big hope. I've had matches where I go T1 Thoughtseize, Turn 2 Hymn, Turn 3 Hymn, Thoughtseize and had my opponent combo off on 4...

Burn is also hell. If you have a Mystic, and can make it to turn 4, Jitte forces burn to your creatures over you.

That's pretty much it for the un-winnable matches.

Could talk about (if there are any) changes in your deck right now?

Right now, I'm looking at Diabolic Edict. It's mainly to deal with Mongoose. The Deed was pretty much a throw in at the last minute. Before the tournament it was a Lili I didn't have access to another that I wanted to use. The other option for that slot was a second Jitte.

I'm thinking, replace the Dismember's with Edicts and the Deed with the second Jitte. All Tournament long, any time I played a Jitte, it was taken out by a Jitte.

The new card, Killing Wave is actually looking stronger than the Edicts in that slot. Granted, It also happens for me but, as with Deed, I know it's coming and can plan accordingly. besides, there are times where you'll just wipe their board. So, Be careful of that card in the future.

I've got the list (with changes) linked in my signature (newest first). There are also tabs below for the changes at certain dates. The older dock is done in reverse so the older lists are first.

[sdematt]

Killing Wave really needs to be called Killing Fields, so I can get an alter done of the Khmer Rouge or something. Oh well.

I think killing fields is more of a tool for BUG Landstill or something, but we'll see. I'll give it a try, no doubt.

-Matt

[SheepToken]

@Damion: Actually, I always thought Canadian was an easy match as long as all the other tempo or AgrooControl decks. Burn and ComboStorm hates rock of course. That why I get the random idea of putting 4 Leyline of Sanctity on my sb, It wins matches vs Combo and Burns if they don't get the removal, or at least gives us time to have pressence on the board. Also helps us agains discards.

About Killing Wave:
I don't like being the dissonant element here, but I think Killing Wave needs a serious playtest in the rock before commiting with it in a competitive way. I'll explain myself.

KW puts our opponents in a harsh situation, but not an overwhelming one, as they can just pay some life and leave the problem there. Unlike other decks, the rock deck in a mid-late game ussualy kills in one or two strikes, so we don't actually need those extra life loss, perhaps we just need one or two creatures to dissapear. A good player will know how to avoid a greater loss. I don't like giving him choices.

Continuing with it, we must think of which kind of decks we harm with KW, most of the agroo ones of course; I realize that there aren't a lot of decks that cannot continue playing without a few small creatures on board (being agroo decks) to make KW a decisive spell there.

Being realistic, will most of the times pay KW for 2 or 3 manas. That means he just have to pay 2 life per creature to ignore your spell, if he want, he just need to sacrifice some dudes to avoid more damage.

How many creatures we think we can destroy with it? 2 - 3? So it will be like 2B, your opponent loses 4 - 6 life.

I hate being the bad one here :C

[damionblackgear]

On Killing Wave - I had to see what you were talking about with the life thing, then I found out. The Spoiler I saw was updated. Killing Wave was a Tabernacle/Fade Away effect previously, not based on them paying life. How it's worded now changes things and I'm in complete disagreement with my previous statement. If the card turns out to be a Tabernacle effect again, I'm going to say this card is insane.

-----

I'm still very touchy on Combo hate. I've got terrible combo match history, regardless of hate (quantity, quality, or any combination of the two).

There was a point where I was Running Leylines alongside Thorns and Teegs... Yes I dedicated all 15 to the matchup as a joke... BUT I STILL LOST 3 MATCHES! My best option at one point was to let the blue decks beat it.

Right now, I'm limiting my choices to Teeg+Cannonist alongside a small discard package. I'm not willing to throw in the towel anymore, but it's pulling enough resources from my board.

[zalachan]

How do you feel your matchup against Hive Mind? In my testing, they strongly dislike Birds of Paradise paired with Mox Diamond (since we can pay Pacts in upkeep). Ethersworn Cannonist is also nice, but not really stellar. They can drop Hive Mind and just wait a turn. I guess the main plan is additional discard + Extractions?

EDIT: Oh yeah, congrats on your finish!

[damionblackgear]

Thank you.

Of the combo decks, Hivemind and the current High Tide are your best matchups. That's not to say that they're better than 50% but you at least have a chance. Cannonist isn't actually that helpful as initially believed (as you said, it only buys you a turn).

Your discard on the other hand is a big deal. Being able to steal the Hivemind when you can is a serious thing. the pacts are not as serious as they have many but the fact that you can usually pay for one (depending on your draw) hurts a lot.

Teeg makes it so that Show and Tell is their only way for them to win. Granted, there is no way to make sure that he'll remain on the battlefield. So you should continue to dismantle as much as possible.

I've found that Liliana helps enough with that. They have a 2 card combo, they have to have 2 cards. If they play a land, they're down a card. If their Spell doesn't Cantrip, they're down a card. If you force them to discard, they're down a Card. She's a hand control in the matchup. If their hand size ever goes to 1, you've pretty much sealed the game. I've actually found THIS to happen A LOT in the matches between Hivemind and Sneak-n-Show that you win.

Your best outcome from them is still Show and Tell into Emrakul. You can usually drop a Knight or a way to cast Lili to deal with it. Even just having the Karakas hurts them a lot. Just remember that if you see Red, you should be expecting Moon effects of some kind to stop the Karakas (this comment is actually intended for Sneak Show).

[SheepToken]

Hi, I was wondering if you guys could help me with my list, I've been moving around some things. It's always nice to have an outside opinion about it ;)
Tomorrow I'll be in a small store tournament, I'll write a report if you guys would like to hear about of how this list worked for me ;)

/ / Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore

/ / Instants
4 Swords to Plowshares

/ / Sorceries
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inkisition of Kosilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam

/ / Planeswalker
3 Liliana of the Veil

/ / Artifacts
2 Sensei's Diving Top

/ / Enchantments
2 Pernicious Deed

/ / Lands
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Maze of Ith

Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Nature's claim
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Bojuka bog

[sdematt]

I'd say if you're expecting to see Loam based decks like 43 lands, run Extirpate. Otherwise, run Surgical Extraction.

Other than that, looks solid :)

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

13 "discard" spells seem like a lot, 7-8 is usually the right number especially with liliana keeping their hand size low...

[SheepToken]

Hi, I think you are rigth about extirpate, I just use it over surgical because of the matchs it give against Rea (it can't be countered) and Canadian (for Tropical Island), but Surgical seems a better add here, because I almost ever want to play it for zero. thanks. Btw, there's no loam on my meta.

About the 13 discard spells, well I don't count Liliana as a discard spell, but you are right about it, i didn't care to notice maybe i was running to many discard effects, i'll fix that puting more threats, maybe you could tell which ones to cut for it. thanks

[lavafrogg]

If i was really going to get into it, i would add the bog to the maindeck, your mana base is fine. You can cut one of the wastelands and add a stronghold.

For the discard I would either cut the 3 inquisitions or the 4 hymns. You can find various arguments for the pro/cons of each on this thread but without Lilliana i am pro hymn, with her i think the 1cc discard is better. The last piece that looks weird are the maindeck deeds. If you want t a maindeck sweeper, use explosives as you wont have to wipe your board to wipe theirs.

With the added spaces add whatever GWB good stuff you have, 3-4 pridemages will help you control the board while you save your vindicates for larger targets, additional planeswalkers will give you more late game!

p.s. has anyone tested a 4 gsz 4 bop 4 sfm list packed full of 1cc discard? Turn 1 bird/gsz, turn 2 discard bob/mystic/goyf turn three...profit?

[Elminister]

Here's a list I'm currently testing:

Lands: 24
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Swamp
1 x Plains
4 x Wasteland
3 x Scrubland
4 x Bayou
4 x Verdant Catacombs
4 x Marsh Flats
1 x Maze of Ith
1 x Horizon Canopy

Sorcery: 10
4 x Inquisition of Kozilek
2 x Vindicate
1 x Maelstrom Pulse
3 x Green Sun's Zenith

Instant: 4
4 x Swords to Plowshares

Creatures: 17
3 x Stoneforge Mystic
4 x Dark Confidant
3 x Tarmogoyf
1 x Birds of Paradise
1 x Gaddock Teeg
1 x Qasali Pridemage
4 x Knight of the Reliquary

Artifact and enchantment: 5
2 x Sensei's Divining Top
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Feast and Famine
1 x Pernicious Deed

Sideboard:
2 x Duress
3 x Nihil Spellbomb / Extirpate (leaning towards Spellbomb atm)
1 x Lightning Greaves
1 x Thrun, the Last Troll
2 x Deathmark / Perish (leaning towards Deathmark)
1 x Pernicious Deed
1 x Bojuka Bog

4 x Flex slots - I'd like some additional hate for combo and Burn, maybe white Leyline; perhaps additional hate for UWx Stoneblade (like Elspeth) and perhaps something like a single Damnation for occasional Goblins / Elves that show up every now and then.

I'm fairly content with mainboard. It still needs a bit polishing. I'm not entirely happy with Teeg. Without Hymns, combo match-up is much more difficult and Teeg doesn't help much. I will also try to fit Karakas in main.

I'm also going to test singleton Ooze. I tried it once before in classic Rock list and was extremely unhappy. The card gets much more usage in something like Nic Fit. In Rock, I always find something else to spend my mana on.

Final note: I never thought cutting Hymn would work, but it actually does. Bad top decks rarely happen with list as is.

[sdematt]

Your lists looks solid. The *only* thing I could say is +1 Sylvan Library. Ask any Maverick player how games end up with Sylvan, or without. Sylvan is really, really good. I'd suggest trying at least one.

-Matt

[SheepToken]

Cutting hymns is a big deal, al least for me, I must say it's a hard decisition, but I'll give it a try anyway.
I Have a big concern over here, wondering why the lastest rock lists uses Stoneforges + equipments, GSZ, and a pack of singles for it. I mean, I know they are really useful, but imo it make lose the escense of the deck, pretending to be more like a Maverick with black. As I said before, we don't have a way to protect Stoneforge, she's more useful in other decks.

I don't like to waste mana on equiping some guy that can be destroyed in response as well as it can be destroy without the need to equip it, I prefer to run Deed because it give me responses to what I see in front of me, itself can be a 2 or 3 for 1, very relevant. Also, Deed is the reason why I don't use Stoneforge (equipments), Sylvan Library, Mox diamond, BoP.
Considering the Knight, Tarmo and Terravore are large enough to finish a game without needing any equipment at all. that's my opinion

The rock deck is suppoused to be a Agrocontrol deck with nice discard spells at the beggining a nice response to permaments, controling our opp mana base, and then when he is low in resources drop a bomb and finish the game with it

So, It'll be: -4 Hymn -1 Liliana -1 Marsh flats
+3 GSZ +1 Ooze +1 Qasali +1 Bojuka bog

On sb: -3 Extirpate -1 Bojuka bog
+3 Surgical +1 Gaddock

Thank you all for the advices.

[sdematt]

No worries man, we love to help :)

Good luck!

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

The rock deck is suppoused to be a Agrocontrol deck with nice discard spells at the beggining a nice response to permaments, controling our opp mana base, and then when he is low in resources drop a bomb and finish the game with it

You missed my rant on why I felt the deck wasn't Rock anymore and wanted to rename the deck (and Nic Fit since it actually is Rock).

On that, The current accepted Rock deck is the standard, and a series of packages. The standard is the Diamonds, Thoughtseize, Hymns, Tarmogoyf , and Knight of the Reliquary deck. The mainly played packages are Discard, Stoneforge and Zenith. There are other packages (Natural Order probably next most popular) and also some discussion based on using Moxen, a 24th land, or neither.

My list is how people tell you not to build the deck. By no means is it the standard. The Zenith package appears to be the most accepted of the packages due to the inclusion of Ooze, which give you alternate means to fight graveyards. I just feel that both packages are weaker apart and found a way a while to mix them. Unfortunately, the only other person I know of who was able to get it working (granted, it was his own variant) was Qwerios. He eventually shifted it into Nic Fit.

The unfortunate thing is that with the inclusion of any of the packages, you start making cuts other places. The first place is the discard package. Of the two that are popular in the standard build (Thoughtseize and Hymn), Hymn is considered the weaker of the two overall (only because of its cost). So they are typically the first cut.

From there, people cut more and more. It tends to be the removal and other spells as the creatures win the games. Eventually, if you make too make cuts, you do end up with Maverick splashing black. It's not to say that's a good or bad thing, just an eventuality of the deck if people keep making cuts.

as for the changes, I would leave the Flats, and Cut a basic swamp (you have 2) instead. You need to remain as flexible as possible and you'll typically not be fetching for more that 1 basic swamp.

for the list overall (using the same things you intend to put in):

-1 Inquisition
-2 Hymn
-1 Liliana
-1 Deed
-1 Swamp

The reasons i'd go that route:

3 discard - you're Adding one of the packages, this will give you access to 5 1cc discard spells alongside 2 Hymns and 2 Lili's. You should be able to control most decks hands from there. You'll have some dead draws but you can always discard them to Lili late game.

1 Lili - She's great, don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of the More of a good things the better. The issue I have is that she costs 3 and you have a lot of 3's in your list. Vindicate is good and so is Knight, Deed is also good. Granted, of those, only Knight can win but, you'd rather have a reset switch and a Catch all than a third Lili.

1 Deed - I was going to say, "Put one in the board" but it's already there. There are a lot of decks that Deed is very good against. Unfortunately, Plainswalker steal a bit of the thunder it once had. I cut my Deeds a long time ago for Pulses and have glanced back many times, but never really been pulled enough to re-add it to the main. Additionally, the Pridemage will hit most of what you'd be deeding anyway.

1 Swamp - for Bog, I went over that above.

Good luck.