[Deck] Dredge

[jares]

Basically, either parts you add to the deck increase the chance of DRing a DR target, whether you add a DR or a target, by the same amount. Since that's the case, I would advice adding DRs instead of targets when you already have the target you want, because, at least, DR can work without a DR target.

I agree. In fact, some would argue that Dread Return isn't there for the DR target at all!

My concern, though, is how well/badly the deck is affected by the different "DR to DR-Target ratios" being used. This might just be nit-picking, though, and it might not even be worth bothering about; it's just a matter of curiosity for now, but I could be proven otherwise given that we're dealing with around 4-7 (or maybe higher?) cards in our 75-card builds.

Cheers,
jares

[Michael Keller]

The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

This is how I've felt about Dredge for a while. I'm certain the core of Dredge is strong enough to topple any opponent with tight play. That's why I'm not a big fan of DR-targets. My list is 59/60 the same as his, fwiw.

[Mindlash]

The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

That's true. The Dredge Core by itself is pretty strong already. All the hate is irrelevant if your Opp does not draw into it even by mulliganing and you have god draws all day long.

Of course there are lists with maximized chances on good hands. But even these lists may fail you in critical moments.

For me the Flayerlist works best at the moment. I get a lot better hands with it then with the Quodlaserlist which seems a bit weird by analyzing the lists in a mathmatical matter :-)

Recently a Manaless List Top3'ed which also states what Hollywood said. Lucky matchups (in this case no Leylines/Cages/perhaps Combo) may alter the outcome. The Manaless list is also not as good at mulliganing as the LEDlists are. In fact its pretty much unable to mulligan at all. All the pilot could do is play tight and prey for no Leylines/bad hand.

I encountert 3 zero turn Leylines lately in G3 while I was double-extracted G2 right off the bat and there was not much I could do against it despite PImp/Moeba/Thugh beatdown which was a bit to slow against Hive Mind (although I had some time because a could have paid at least two pacts with my Lands/LEDs :-P). And I had potential 1 Turnkill hands in both games (kept LED in cuz I didn't set him on Leylines).

Sometimes Dredge just dies to massive hate. Sometimes it dies to itself. And then there are those days where you play tight, draw good, dredge better and are unstoppable :-)

[jares]

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

Could it be that this statement is true more often than we realize? In fact, with the variety of configurations available (LED/less, DR/less, DR-target/less, etc.) that have subtle differences and are all able to place well, I won't be surprised if this statement will actually able to explain why all these lists are doing well.

Someone mentioned this a while back (in the old thread I think): "We should all choose the configuration that works for us and do our best to understand how to pilot our chosen build to victory" (or something like that).

Cheers,
jares

[Klazam]

I think that if the pilot is good, and the deck doesnt crap all over itself, it will win. The reason is that the deck offers a variety of ways to attack other decks. It can shift roles in matchups like no other deck can- It can play combo v. aggro, aggro v. control, and even control v. combo. Name any other deck that can do that.

Also- the extra benefit: nearly nobody will test aganist dredge because it's a unenjoyable experience for 98% of people, so often they are left at a loss at how to play the matchup. These people think that if you jam in 4 graveyard hate cards in the side, you will win v. Dredge. This isn't true, to our benefit.

I've had many people misplay horribly because they didnt know what my cards did- ex: people not knowing how to deal with Bridges, Surgical Extraction on the wrong card, popping a crypt early.

[badjuju]

The reason I asked the question I did was to purposely insinuate that perhaps the person piloting the list with only one Dread Return befell a series of good matchups, played tight, and had good draws. If you can sustain that with this deck, you're going to have a good run.

Perhaps the strength of the player overshadows the strength of the list in this instance.

I agree with all your statements (although the same could be said for any deck I think haha), but I don't feel like his list is suboptimal in any way. His first placement in March led to a few changes to his sideboard for the LCL tournament. Seems to me that this list was born from experience and testing. But then again, Dredge is an archetype that is completely open to interpretation. While we are here discussing the difference of +/- 5 cards and the dynamism added by DR, we forget that that the core of the deck is fundamentally the same. Regardless of the list, tight play and good draws/dredges will bring you out on top.

[Koby]

@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*

From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?

[badjuju]

@ Yesmilord
I've changed my mind, I want to test against Dredge for a good 20-30 matches to get a better understanding of the its matchups. Sign me up for the Masochist Express. *Choo choo, All aboard!*

From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?

@Koby
Totally down :) I'll see you at the shop sometime and we'll grind this one out.


As for the Maverick perspective, there are a few things that we're afraid of, but it's mostly Scavenging Ooze. Thalia can be rough if you back it with Wasteland, Teeg shuts down Breakthrough and Dread Return, and you can always GSZ for Dryad Arbor, then pop a Wasteland on it to nuke our bridges.

People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1. I personally have not tested against Maverick, but from what I've read, people are starting to opt a strategy that keeps in LEDs to maintain the chance of a more explosive start. Because Ooze is constrained by mana, you can actually just outrace it sometimes, especially if you have a Dread Return plan. The Maverick player will have to exile too many cards and won't be able to keep up.

That's how I've seen it. But anyone else please feel free to correct me or add ontop of this.

[jares]

People who expect to run into a lot of Maverick opt to run 1 Darkblast MB to deal with Ooze G1.

Unless I'm missing something here, I don't find this to be very reliable, as playing Darkblast this way will still require 2 lands. I believe that Firestorm is that card that you would want for this job.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
jares

[joemauer]

From a Maverick perspective, what cards does this deck fear the most? How does it best address them?

Game one, the biggest worries are a quick jitte or scavenging ooze. The best way to address that is to overwhelm as quick as possible with as many zombies as possible. Dread Returning a big troll doesn't usually work in this matchup because of MoM.

Game Two, the enlightened tutor into crypt/wheel usually causes problems. Again, speed is the best way to address this, backuped with chains/claims.

Oh and wasteland can randomly put us out the game if we are not careful. At the same time I have seen wasteland as a time walk for me when I have multiple lands.

[HokusSchmokus]

Also, Knight can be devastating if dropped turn 2 on the play.

[Vandalize]

LED lists + Flayer just poop on Maverick like there's no tomorrow. Just mulligan into some average-good hand, and the make a shit load of zombies before they can interact. They usually mulligan into some form of hate (mostly Enlightened Tutor), so they usually keep a slow hand + hate. If they draw godlike, bad for you, good for them.

The latest Maverick lists are strict GW (for that Thalia motherf***er), and dropping Stoneforge Mystic package and upping Umezawa's Jitte count. Play tight, and you won't struggle. Beware of Wasteland.

Firestorm is just a house against this deck, as well. Firestorm EOT hitting 1~2 creatures, followed by Breakthrough (or some kind of draw spell) is probably the best play you can make.

On another note: I've been proxying Griselbrand, and it's just awesome. Pretty much like Flayer, that bud just wins the game as soon as DR resolves. You just dredge what's left from your deck, and win. I've been in a funny situation, where I resolved Griselbrand, and my foe ate it with Swords to Plowshares... Drawing 7 cards for 0 life was something to remember.

[Mindlash]

LED lists + Flayer just poop on Maverick like there's no tomorrow. Just mulligan into some average-good hand, and the make a shit load of zombies before they can interact. They usually mulligan into some form of hate (mostly Enlightened Tutor), so they usually keep a slow hand + hate. If they draw godlike, bad for you, good for them.

The latest Maverick lists are strict GW (for that Thalia motherf***er), and dropping Stoneforge Mystic package and upping Umezawa's Jitte count. Play tight, and you won't struggle. Beware of Wasteland.

Firestorm is just a house against this deck, as well. Firestorm EOT hitting 1~2 creatures, followed by Breakthrough (or some kind of draw spell) is probably the best play you can make.

On another note: I've been proxying Griselbrand, and it's just awesome. Pretty much like Flayer, that bud just wins the game as soon as DR resolves. You just dredge what's left from your deck, and win. I've been in a funny situation, where I resolved Griselbrand, and my foe ate it with Swords to Plowshares... Drawing 7 cards for 0 life was something to remember.

Did you still use Tarnished Citadel with Griselbrand? I think I will switch to Undiscovered Paradise but I don't like getting it to my hand again and again.

How did the lifeloss from Griselbrands ability affect your games? Were there moments you DR'ed him but could not pay for his draw effect? How often does this occure?

I remember some games against Burn, where I never struggle at winnig cuz I'm one turn faster in general. It seems to me that Griselbrand would demand to much in such situations although I am eager to use him once he becomes legal.

Edit: I played Firestorms in my Maindeck / Sideboard with the old Konkurs-List (LEDless) and they where just bonkers against Maverick and of course other creature decks too. I stopped using it since the LED lists because there seem to be not much synergy at all :-/ Never testet them in LED Dredge though. Flayer seemed just sufficient to me with his build in Firestorm.

[264505]

Did you still use Tarnished Citadel with Griselbrand? I think I will switch to Undiscovered Paradise but I don't like getting it to my hand again and again.

How did the lifeloss from Griselbrands ability affect your games? Were there moments you DR'ed him but could not pay for his draw effect? How often does this occure?

I remember some games against Burn, where I never struggle at winnig cuz I'm one turn faster in general. It seems to me that Griselbrand would demand to much in such situations although I am eager to use him once he becomes legal.

Edit: I played Firestorms in my Maindeck / Sideboard with the old Konkurs-List (LEDless) and they where just bonkers against Maverick and of course other creature decks too. I stopped using it since the LED lists because there seem to be not much synergy at all :-/ Never testet them in LED Dredge though. Flayer seemed just sufficient to me with his build in Firestorm.

Wouldn't the fact you just reanimated a 7/7 with flying and lifelink be enough against burn if you are a turn faster?

[Mindlash]

Wouldn't the fact you just reanimated a 7/7 with flying and lifelink be enough against burn if you are a turn faster?

Haha his awesome ability just blinded me so I did oversee the obvious...you are right. Touché :D

Edit: But there are still some games in which I reanimated Flayer at about 3 life and could win instantly this turn, while Griselbrand demands me to wait one more round :-/ Not that I care much about burn...but it was something that came to my mind while reading the 7 lifeloss. Its totally possible to win against Burn without a DR-Target at all with some good Cabals though.

[Mojeh]

Hey guys, I am going to play a small local tournament next weekend, but I don't have access to LED just yet, can you help me out here?
I am expecting Maverick, Elves, Burn, High Tide, Pox and maybe some sort of Tendrils.deck.

Due to Mavericks and Elves, I thought maybe main decked Firestorms would help.

15 Lands (3 Tarnished Citadel)

12 Dredgers (1 Darkblast)

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Firestorm
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
3 Ichorid
2 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp

SB:
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
4 Tireless Tribe
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ichorid
1 Memory Journey

The TTribes are there in the place of Firestorms, since they can help fighting grave-sweepers, and it's also quite better than Firestorm against non-creature combo.
I used to play 4 Ichorid MD, but I am afraid DR is better at racing Maverick... I even thought about playing 1 target MD.

Thanks in advance.

[joemauer]

@Mojeh:
Firestorm maindecked is the best thing you can do to fight Maverick without LED.

Since you are fighting a lot of combo decks, you may want to fit a Sphinx of Lost Truths and Dread Return #3 in the Sideboard.

[HokusSchmokus]

@Mojeh:
Firestorm maindecked is the best thing you can do to fight Maverick without LED.

Since you are fighting a lot of combo decks, you may want to fit a Sphinx of Lost Truths and Dread Return #3 in the Sideboard.

I think Sadistic Hypnotist is the target of choice here.Without a 3rd Return.

[Vandalize]

Actually, the best target would be Iona #2. Sadistic Hypnotist is too situational, and Iona is a turn 2 clock (backed up with Ichorids).