Ok, next time please print it as a 1/1 Goblin for 1RR or so.Originally Posted by liamb
Actually, if it is goblin shaped, it could be considered as it is. But due to the theme, I doubt there would be ANY goblin cards in this set, much less usable ones.
Goblins could still use another ridiculously overpowered, synergystic 1 drop and 2 drop. Power creep in other creatures is making it more and more difficult for synergystic tribal decks to keep up.
Snapcaster and Stoneforge have given other decks the creature-centric built-in card advantage that used to be Goblin's territory.
Delver allows blue decks to put on a fast, evasive clock, and has brought burn back as a win condition (by allowing disruption and burn to back-up a T1 Delver).
It used to be that only decks with FoW and StP could deal with a T1 Lackey. Now every deck that's not running W is running R for Bolt.
Gempalm just isn't good enough anymore since it's getting easier for opponents to kill early goblins while playing creatures with bigger butts.
Rishadan Port is less useful since fewer goblins can be cheated into play when Lackey is less likely to connect, so you need that mana for casting spells. yech.
I feel like there's an angle here that we're not exploring...
Which one?
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I meant to say this last night but I agree. Every game with gobs now is either 50/50 or worse. It used to be u could crush Merfolk and CB all day long; duke it out with zoo and dodge combo. Now there's no gimmes and combo butchers us still. We really have no disruption now as ports are ineffective and we aren't doing anything broken other than lackeys which are stopped easily. I feel like most games I win I am merely snatching the win.
Yeah I guess we need something like:
Goblin Swinedriver 1R
Protection from White
Whenever Goblin Swinedriver attacks, destroy target non-basic land.
2/1
Oh well, one can dream right?
Meanwhile, snatching is the usual way for a Goblin deck to take a win right? One big swing to end it all out of the blue?
The focus has been on cheating goblins into play for so long that we're ignoring that a T1 Lackey/Vial isn't enough anymore. Lackey is to too answerable (RUG plays counter and Bolt, Stoneblade plays Swords and counters, Maverick plays Mom and Swords). Vial is too slow (T4 Matron into T5 Ringleader isn't good enough against T1 Delver or T2 Stoneforge). And mostly, since we're so focused on getting cheaters into play early, we've allowed the mana curve to get outrageously high. Chieftain, Warchief, Sharpshooter, Tuktuk all have outrageous CMCs for their power level. That's not a problem if they're cheated into play, but since Lackey is connecting less you're more often stuck with them in hand. Since their CMC is so high going the Vial route is extremely slow. A T5 Ringleader isn't going to do much good against T1 Delver.
Instead of focusing on cheating goblins into play, I believe we need to lower our mana curve. We need to run more 1 and 2 drops and free spells (Pyrokinesis).
I've been goldfishing this build this weekend, and it seems promising...
Creature (31)
1x Stingscourger
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Gempalm Incinerator
1x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Warren Instigator
11x Mountain
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis
4x AEther Vial
The obvious change is the inclusion of a set of Mogg Fanatic. I'm trying out Fanatic because he's a great answer to many of the threats in the format, he enables a play of T1 Vial into T2 Fanatic>Gempalm. He's also an excellent defensive play of T1 Fantaic>T2 Winstigator. Tarfire and Gempalm back him up. He's great to pitch to Pyrokinesis, and he's a good body on the field to be bulked up by Chieftain and Piledriver.
Really it seems like we need T1 plays that set up our gameplan but aren't just Vial/Lackey, and I thing Fanatic does that.
I'm not gonna lie I'm tempted to take vial out of the deck. I know that sounds awful but its not really needed against much these days.
Edit:
To expand on Vial:
Esperblade: seems good here I'll grant
RUG: Seems awful
Maverick: Is good if you can keep it in play but it's not hard at all for them to blow it up with qasali's and its gonna seem awful slow when they go t1 heirach or arbor into t1 KotR or something and you've got vial 1st turn.
Combo: Obviously terrible, sided out alot.
The list would obviously have to be reworked though because you can't cheat the land count as much.
I like the idea of Fanatic as well. He has a lot of utility, like removing Bridge from Below and giving us reach. Also, here's a list of the threats he answers:
Mother of Runes
Dryad Arbor
Noble Hierarch
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Grim Lavamancer
Snapcaster Mage
Vendilion Clique
Dark Confidant
He seems fine, but you're cutting the explosiveness from the deck in the form of Piledriver and Warchief for burn. You're game plan seems to be playing a more control-based game, where you slow down their threats and overwhelm with card advantage in the late game. I don't know if that's right or wrong, but it's definitely an interesting concept.
Burn doesn't really answer the threat of equipment, which is the biggest threat Esper Stoneforge and Maverick have, because they're never really going to run out of creatures because of Lingering Souls etc. My personal strategy has been instead to "Be the beatdown" against those decks using the 4 Warchief/Piledriver/Chieftain and answer equipment with Tuktuk Scrapper, which I don't see in your list.
The burn build is going to be weaker to combo as well, because Piledriver and Warchief are two of the main cards used in our turn 4 kills.
So what are we going to do: race faster? Or stabilize more quickly to get into that late game we like?
If we want to race, how about picking up that card we dismissed a long time ago: Goblin Guide?
The land denial plan appears not to be as amazing as it used to be, perhaps making guide a viable option again.
Theres also less Nacatls around to block it.
Stoneforge/Mother of Runes/Snapcaster/Vendilion Clique/Noble Hierarch/Bob/Pridemage/Early Ooze/Thalia.. they're either not going to block it, or we don't mind it getting blocked.
It makes our Vial faster aswell since it now has something to do at 1 counter.
It plays very well with Piledriver, so we might need to up that count again. It does want some red mana, so it's probably better in decks without ports (which makes sense since it's a bit bad in mana-denial anyways).
It likes Chieftain better than Warchief.
And it's still horrible against Brainstorm, but should we care a lot about that?
On the other hand, if we go for the stabilize quickly, then win the late game plan, we are pretty much as far as we can get already I suppose. Vials, slow as they may seem, are essential to winning a lategame. We can't cut any Ringleaders ofcourse, and 2 SGC + Kiki seems good too. I do think we're better off with Tarfire or Lightning Bolt in this setup. Mogg Fanatic is a bit quicker, but if we aren't going to win on turn 4, lets make sure we do on turn 6? (The fanatic just doesn't kill Stoneforge Mystic on his own, which is a biggy).
I also think the big manacost Tuktuk Scrapper is essential to this gameplan. You don't just want to delay their equipments, you just want to delay them enough to get tools to kill em.
Scatmans list appears to be very well suited for this type of gameplay.
As for the Lightningspeed build, perhaps something like this?
4 Goblin Guide
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
2 Goblin Warchief
1 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
2 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Stingscourger
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pyrokinesis
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
18 Mountains
I'm not certain about this list, but it might spark some ideas?
Lightning Bolt over Tarfire because finishing the game with burn might happen more often if there's less focus on card advantage wins. But if your last card happens to be a matron you can still fetch Ringleader with it.
The big downside: If they do happen to get a batterskull down through your burn/bounce/race, you're in a load of trouble.
As for the slower approach:
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Tarfire
2 Stingscourger
1 Pyrokinesis
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
18 Mountains
This list has higher manacosts, but also more manacheaters so I've decided to keep the same landcount. It's a lot like, if not exactly like some of the lists posted in the past month.
Mogg Fanatic is absolutely the correct route. He chumps Jitte and Batterskull and kills a ton of creatures or he can make for a pretty decent clock with Goblin Chieftain. Furthermore he makes Incinerator worthwhile again, since you he adds 2 damage to Incinerator, thereby enabling the killing of Goyf and Knight. The most important thing he does is buy time to get you into the lategame where Siege Gang and Ringleader take over. You are absolutely correct in your analysis and running less than 3 Fanatics is assuredly wrong in current Goblins list. Your list is remarkably close to what I have come up with, but I run Lightning Bolt, 22 land and some other minor differences such as SGC #3 instead of Kiki, no Piledriver or Stingscourger, only 3 Fanatic and 4 Gempalms. Then I am also an avid supporter of running a ton of combo hate in the sideboard, since the maindeck is pretty much tweaked to beat all of the major players anyway and there really isn't much to board in that actually improves the other matchups by a decent percentage.
Also, I really don't feel the sentiment that Goblins has no buisiness in todays metagame, I have been slaughtering Maverick, Delver decks and BUG. Esperblade has given me some troubles because that deck is just crazy good and I think it gives every deck in the current metagame troubles.
Team R&D
Want to share your list Mantis?
Also, Esperblade w/ Lingering Souls right? What about Goblin Sharpshooter?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Played today.
Beat Deadguy, Dredge, Maverick, ID,ID, and lost a sad game 3 agains Mav on top 8. Played for 5-8 and won against Maverick again.
Ran 20 lands, and it was never an issue. 2 cards included were Warchief and Skirk Prospector, both awesome so many times. Never got land screwed, and got flooded twice, once costing me the game (top8).
Will write a report tomorrow or the dey after, since I made quite some different decisions than usual.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
haha, funny guys. I just came here to post my results of the latest testings i had and that I think Fanatic is a great choice at the moment. Although my old list could beat the Sfm-less Maverick already, the Fanatics improve the matchup. I added a third Pyrokinesis to my main too, because you want one in your opening hand to clear the board. Its also good against Souls Token.
But the Esper Matchup gives me headaches, it runs so much discard and removal, coupled with SFM-Jitte and Souls. Biggest problem here of course the Jitte, same as in Maverick. I feel Tuktuk is to clunky, I might try 2 Needles in the board again. Its good against Equipment and Deed (BUG-Control), the most troublesome cards against us.
I feel the correct gameplan is to survive the earlygame via enough removal and win mid to lategame with cardadvantage, if the broken Lackey into madness opening fails.
Im not sure about Gempalm Incinerator, even with Fanatics I find it to slow and conditional. Also, I dont know what to cut in my list. Im currently testing Sharpshooter again. Seems good against token and synergizes with Fanatics and Kinesis.
My current approach on the list:
---21 lands---
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
6 Snow-Covered Mountain
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
--Core--
-2 Goblin Piledriver
-1 Goblin Warchief
--Flex--
3 Goblin Chieftain
1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Instigator
1 Tarfire
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Mogg War Marshal
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Perish
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 1 Anarchy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
Usually I want the B-Splash to have access to Perish. But since I added the Kinesis and Fanatics im not sure i still need them. Tomorrow Ill test against Canadian to see if Perish is better (Mongoose, Goyf) or its better to be Stifleproof. Since Belcher is getting better results, it might be better to have Mindbreak Trap over Chalice. Maybe 2-2 Split
I had been using the various ideas of others here to certain degrees of success. Mogg Fanatic and 20 lands are a couple of ideas that worked. I noticed jrw1985 using it a few pages back and having good feedback, I gave it a try. Although I have not gone as far as adding 4 of them, I feel it should be given due consideration in every goblin deck now. Basically, I replaced MVM with Fanatic.
Cheating goblins has been one of the pillars of the goblin deck, and I still think it is.
It makes playing with less lands(20) more workable and helps with otherwise poor opening hands. I had been using 20 lands for a while and I think it is workable as long as you played 3-4 WI.
The list I am currently playing withAnyone else playing with Basilisk Collar? Sometimes it is a show stopper but it can also be a dead card and even when it isn't a loss of tempo.//Lands
16 Mountain
4 Wasteland
//Goblins
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Warren Instigator
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Goblin Piledriver
//Removal
2 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Pyrokinesis
//Artifact
4 AEther Vial
1 Basilisk Collar
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 1 Stingscourger
SB: 1 Pyrokinesis
SB: 4 Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
I dont think cutting Warchiefs and Piledrivers completely is the right move, especially with the lowered land count. A Warchief, followed by Matron, Piledriver still steals some games. Also Piledriver works as kind of removal.
And whats with Kiki nowadays. In the old thread we already dismissed Kiki because SGC is the better 5-drop most of the times. Kiki is fun, but shouldnt be played.
For me, Kiki-Jiki is a game-changer. It can alter the board state by itself and its versatility that comes with matron tutoring, combined with instant speed vialing can be very powerful. It catchs the the unwary out and deceived opponent into thinking we have something when we don't.
With Kiki-Jiki, comes silver bullets. It is something that if went unanswered, would almost certainly win the game. But I feel it is the most difficult card to play in the deck(even more than matron), timing and target can make a world of difference.
With a matron, we can tutor up all the rest.
Need to finish? Copy Piledriver, chieftain.
Need blockers? MVM
Need artifact solution? Scapper, Tinker
Need some board advantage? Sharpshooter.
About PileDriver, I feel it should be played. At the very least as a tutorable 1-of, but I think the time has passed for it to be 4-of. I don't know the right number, but I suppose it would depends on the composition of the other goblins. So, I guess the right number should be anywhere from 1-3.
I had ditched Warchiefs totally, simply I feel they are not useful to be a 4-of and its effect don't justified playing just 1. I had tried played 2-2 spilt with Chieftain but I don't think it worked out. So, I chose to go in favour of Chieftains.
Well, I tried to tell you that fanatic is very good for about 3 months and finally you approved them.
Kiki-jiki: if you really want to play him you need winstigator (3-4) and even then he was more than anything else just overkill. Would rather play 2 sgc than 1-1 split and three 5cmc creatures are too much. I myself play only one sgc on that slot...
Gempalm: for me he is undisputable 4-of, maybe because I play 4 mwm, compared to pyrokinesis, he can't be forced - which results in big card disadvantage. Pyrokinesis is good but aganist maverick it's most of time 2 for 2 trade - too situational (in MD) for my taste...
For those who are struggling with Esperblade, I've found that a combination of the following cards is quite good way to deal with them:
3 Mogg War Marshal
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Porspector
3 Sulfuric Viórtex
I was playtesting with a friend of mine when we noticed that artifact hate isn't effective against Batterskull. This is so true. I can't think of a situation when Tuktuk (or SHattering SPree) actually hit Batterskull, this is almost impossible since they can easily keep 3 mana (which are likely 3 basiclands) untapped to return Batterskull when needed. Batterskull is then quickly played from hand again (absolutely possible with 5 mana.). The point is: the most effective way to deal with Batterskull is to nuke SFM before the nasty Germ-Token appears. However, PREVENTING B.Skull isn't possible in like 50% of the cases. So how do we deal with it? Chumpblocking! What really annoys me is LIFELINK. We can indeed "chumpblock for months" (as Ruffy suggested) but we oftentimes scoop when their lifetotal is above 30. The thing is we can't even attack unless one swing deals more than 8 dmg to their lifetotals.
So how do we deal with Vigiliance + Lifelink? The answer is: Sulfuric Vortex. This thing turn Batterskull into a Stone Golem (so hairy, it's scary)
Tuktuk deals with Jitte.
Skirk Prospector and Siege-Gang can handle Jitte too.
Sharpshooter counters Lingering Souls.
Mogg War Marshal helps you with chumpblocking B.Skull.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABout Mogg Fanatic:
Please guys, try him out and write reports that focus on HIS PERFORMANCE IN DETAIL. It's only my intuition telling me that he isn't too good, but I'd be glad to learn that my intuition is wrong.
MountainCaverns, Lackey, Go.
If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchanges our apples, we each have one apple. But if you have an idea and I have an idea and we exchange our ideas, we each have two ideas.
I used to run 2-3 Mogg Fanatis to face off threats like Mother of Runes, Grim, Vendillion, Dregdge,etc.
But then i realise that he isn´t good enough.
Now i run 4 Tarfire + 3 Gempalm and they do their work very good, and i think that my deck becomes much more consistent without the moggs.
The mogg is particulary good against dredge, but i also can Tarfire my gobs to remove their bridges, so no big deal.
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