Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[Kuma]

I think you misunderstood that quote of mine. When playing against Maverick, one of the top decks to beat, how does having this land help you? It does not help you. It limits the spells you can cast and gives Maverick players more wasteland targets.

However, I don't see how playing this land will help Maverick. I was under the impression Maverick>blue decks.

Yeah, sorry, I read that wrong.

Just because Maverick > blue decks doesn't mean it can't benefit from being even better against blue decks, especially when the opportunity cost is miniscule.

[joemauer]

What's the point of being 5x better than blue decks or 50x better than blue decks?

I don't think I would want to be 50x better than blue decks just to make the mirror match worse.

[DragoFireheart]

What's the point of being 5x better than blue decks or 50x better than blue decks?

There comes a point where you become so anti-X deck that you don't even need to consider sideboard space for them. This in effect lets you save sideboard space for your bad matchups. This makes your deck better against the overall field.

[Kuma]

What's the point of being 5x better than blue decks or 50x better than blue decks?

Seriously?

I don't think I would want to be 50x better than blue decks just to make the mirror match worse.

Assuming we cut a basic land, how much worse do you think you're making the mirror match by adding one more Waste-able land? I'll bet it's not anywhere near 50x worse. It's probably like .0005% worse.

Also, in Maverick mirrors, it's almost always better to Waste their utility lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and Tower of the Magistrate than to try to screw them by Wasting Savannahs.

[joemauer]

Seriously?



Assuming we cut a basic land, how much worse do you think you're making the mirror match by adding one more Waste-able land? I'll bet it's not anywhere near 50x worse. It's probably like .0005% worse.

Also, in Maverick mirrors, it's almost always better to Waste their utility lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and Tower of the Magistrate than to try to screw them by Wasting Savannahs.

Oh, I was under the impression you guys were trying to fit 3-4 of these new caverns into Maverick. Not just one.

You guys are right, this singleton land will make Maverick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blue decks. I was wrong.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Seriously?



Assuming we cut a basic land, how much worse do you think you're making the mirror match by adding one more Waste-able land? I'll bet it's not anywhere near 50x worse. It's probably like .0005% worse.

Also, in Maverick mirrors, it's almost always better to Waste their utility lands like Maze of Ith, Gaea's Cradle, and Tower of the Magistrate than to try to screw them by Wasting Savannahs.

So you want to add this land as a one of for knight? But if you have a knight in play why do you care if some of your creatures are uncountable.

[Kuma]

So you want to add this land as a one of for knight? But if you have a knight in play why do you care if some of your creatures are uncountable.

I don't want to add it as a one-of "for Knight." I want to add it as a one-of because drawing two is bad in Maverick, and once in a while getting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, and Knights of the Reliquary is nicer than the negligible opportunity cost is bad.

[Barook]

Cavern of Souls will mark the glorious return of Thunder Bluff.

Just wait for it.

[bruizar]

I thought Fauna Shaman into Loyal retainers / Elesh-Norn was supposed to ramp up the mirror match. I think you really need a good reason to run wasteland with all those options. Cavern of Souls is still a multicolor mana producing land in Maverick. Who cares if they waste you? As long as you run enough mana, you are running on par with your opponent. I'd much rather run the utility, and more stable mana base due to more colored sources, with Cavern of Souls, then doodling around with Wasteland. If you really want to 'wastelock' someone with KOTR, splash a Dust Bowl.

As an aside, Maverick wasn't good enough to crush the Esperblade deck that took the first place at Indianapolis, so I don't think Maverick is 5 times as good as blue yet.

Oh, I was under the impression you guys were trying to fit 3-4 of these new caverns into Maverick. Not just one.

You guys are right, this singleton land will make Maverick>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>blue decks. I was wrong.

3-4 is the right number. Cut Wasteland, it's outdated.

[jrw1985]

Anyone else worried that Cavern of Souls' flavor text on the mtgsalvation page is "Awesome land is awesome"?

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not seeing a huge deal with this land.
It seems really good, but not particularly overpowered.

Rug still runs bolts and Wastelands. Running this means more Wasteland targets in your deck and Bolt still kills most creatures. Submerge out the board is still pretty hot here.

UW or UWx can adjust. When Maverick is your worst matchup on average and a very popular deck it might finally make sense to bring those Wraths in your SB into the MD. Then you still have your Swords + Snapcaster package.

On a related note Engineered Plague or Night of Souls Betrayal seem pretty decent if you are going a control route.

Card is good and it might change the format, but I'm pretty sure if it does decks will be able to adjust.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I don't want to add it as a one-of "for Knight." I want to add it as a one-of because drawing two is bad in Maverick, and once in a while getting uncounterable Noble Hierarchs, Mothers of Runes, Thalias, and Knights of the Reliquary is nicer than the negligible opportunity cost is bad.

That sounds awful.

[Tombstalker]

Cavern is very good maybe the most auto include spoiled so far. This thing is like boseiju on crack. It doesnt hurt mavericks plan at all and just strengthens its matchup against control and combo while actually making the manabase better for half of their creatures.
Also am I the only one who leaves in some number of FoW and snare against maverick?

[Cire]

Lanzamiento doble – 1R Rare
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

Seems pretty good... Get it on a creature turn 2, turn 3, start doing silly things.... (double your hymn , then keep on doubling your discard and creature kill)

[nedleeds]

Nice

I think the main concern (at least mine) is that this just plugs right into maverick like everything else lately. 15+ spells that are uncounterable is nothing to sneeze at when they are knights and thalias, hell even moms. The other issue is that most of mavericks other creatures and spells could care less if it produces colorless. Really only pridemage and teeg. 4 cards.

I mean, we are saying casting creatures without having to duress a spell snare or have a force or daze yourself is a valid legacy strategy. This land can't even make mana for non-creature spells. It can be wastelanded. What lands are you taking out of your 19-22 lands to put this in? It doesn't protect the man you create with it. It's good but not even on the same plane as some of the cards that are currently not banned in Legacy, like fucking Brainstorm.

I mean the control decks might actually play this land ... and name Wizard. Then they are off to the races with

4 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Dark Confidant

DERP!

[TsumiBand]

Anyone else worried that Cavern of Souls' flavor text on the mtgsalvation page is "Awesome land is awesome"?

They do that all the time, because people leech their page or some junk. At any rate the actual Spanish card is posted right next to it.

[nedleeds]

The land is alright, but it doesn't hose blue that badly. I really wish it had this ability instead:

T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Spend this mana only to cast creature spells of the chosen creature type. If this mana is spent on a spell, opponents can't take extra turns until the beginning of your next upkeep.

You have Stranglehold for that.

[Koby]

I thought Fauna Shaman into Loyal retainers / Elesh-Norn was supposed to ramp up the mirror match. I think you really need a good reason to run wasteland with all those options. Cavern of Souls is still a multicolor mana producing land in Maverick. Who cares if they waste you? As long as you run enough mana, you are running on par with your opponent. I'd much rather run the utility, and more stable mana base due to more colored sources, with Cavern of Souls, then doodling around with Wasteland. If you really want to 'wastelock' someone with KOTR, splash a Dust Bowl.

As an aside, Maverick wasn't good enough to crush the Esperblade deck that took the first place at Indianapolis, so I don't think Maverick is 5 times as good as blue yet.

3-4 is the right number. Cut Wasteland, it's outdated.

You're 1000% correct - Maverick can't beat Tom Martell topdeck city Esperblade. Therefore, my casual outsider observation must be confirming my deep seated, untested opinion. Everyone is wrong but I.

I CAN HAZ HYPERBOLE!

Actual content - this land is junk. Great, you're casting uncouunterable Mother of Runes/Nobles/Knights/Ham&Cheese on Rye. If Stoneblade is going to adapt, it's going to be adapting by overloading on creature removal.

I can't actually see the land being used more than a 1-of, and only in the first 3 weeks of the new set's release, until people realize this land is a piece of garbage for Maverick.

That awkward moment you realize that Cavern of Souls can only cast one of three hatebears in your hand against Combo. (Gaddock Teeg - Advisor Kithkin; Thalia - Human Soldier; Ethersworn Canonist - Human Cleric; Qasali Pridemage - Cat Wizard)

[rufus]

Lanzamiento doble – 1R Rare
Enchantment – Aura
Enchant creature.
Enchanted creature has “R,T: copy target instant or sorcery you control. You may choose new targets for the copy”

Seems pretty good... Get it on a creature turn 2, turn 3, start doing silly things.... (double your hymn , then keep on doubling your discard and creature kill)

Fun, but it seems like a casual/limited card by virtue of being an aura.

[jrw1985]

I mean, we are saying casting creatures without having to duress a spell snare or have a force or daze yourself is a valid legacy strategy. This land can't even make mana for non-creature spells. It can be wastelanded. What lands are you taking out of your 19-22 lands to put this in? It doesn't protect the man you create with it. It's good but not even on the same plane as some of the cards that are currently not banned in Legacy, like fucking Brainstorm.

I mean the control decks might actually play this land ... and name Wizard. Then they are off to the races with

4 x Spellstutter Sprite
2 x Vendillion Clique
4 x Snapcaster Mage
4 x Dark Confidant

DERP!

Yes it can. It adds 1 colorless with no restriction.

On using Cavern in Maverick, making Humans uncounterable seems good, but you need to play fewer forests/fetches to do so. Cavern can't be sacked to Knight, bounced with Scryb Ranger, or used to activate Ooze. You can't cast GSZ for 0 T1 with it. You can't cast StP with it. These are all relatively minor by themselves, but considering Maverick already runs as many non-basics as it can Caverns will become cumbersome. So, it has definite downsides.