I can see that working as Ive alrdy tested it in the past with -1 waste +1 sea for 2perish side. Let us know how it goes for u.
Still dont see any reason to cut stifles though,they are just too good.
I am assuming the parish is for the delver and to a lesser extent maverick matchups?
I do not see how that is even a remotely good idea (though I would be interested to hear your testing results)...
That plan requires you to fetch out a "one-of" land against a deck that plays 4x wasteland and 4x stifle. This required to even play one of two 3cc cards you boarded in, all the while being able to play around daze and or spell pierce. Not to mention the fact that all of this is in a deck that itself plays 4x tarmogoyf (which is one of you best cards against RUG delver). Seems ambitious to me.
I have been pretty impressed with engineered explosives (which is strong in a number of matchups) at zero or one for RUG and 1 and 3 for maverick. Unfortunately, it is also a little weak to stifle, but certainly easier to resolve and much less damaging to you own permanents.
Right now my sideboard looks like:
2 Natures Claim
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Life From the Loam
With the following Main Deck:
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyg
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Jace, The Mindsculptor
1 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
4 Brainstrom
4 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
2 Preordain
4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
I have been thinking of cutting one Island for a Taiga as a little extra help against choke.
The Perish is obviously for the Maverick matchup which is this deck's worst matchup.
I'm running a 22nd land as I've been noticing whenever I Preordain, I'm usually looking for land. The Sea hasn't hurt me at all in testing. It also allows EE at 4.
I have noticed the white creatures in Maverick are just as problematic as the green... which is part of the reason why I play Sulfur Elemental.Originally Posted by yutang
The most threatening green creature you are worried about (Knight of the Reliquary) also happens to be white. If you are worried about that kind of stuff and are willing to play an Underground Sea for a board sweeper, isn't Virtue's Ruin just better?
Delver enthusiast and avid practitioner of blind flipsmanship.
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i don't like the black splash, i feel as if it's unnecessary at the moment. here's my list so far:
4 tarmogoyf
3 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique
3 jace tms
2 grim lavamancer
4 brainstorm
3 preordain
4 force of will
2 counterspell
2 spell pierce
3 spell snare
4 lightning bolt
2 fire/ice
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
4 volcanic island
3 tropical island
2 island
1 mountain
4 wasteland
sb
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 spell pierce
3 relic of progenitus
2 mind harness
2 sulfur elemental
1 grim lavamancer
2 ancient grudge
1 nature's claim
with this setup, you shouldn't need black to be able to handle kotr. you can burn her, then pop relic to kill her and draw a card, you can mind harness, jace and bounce, counterspell, and i usually leave in 2 forces against maverick. playing tight and managing your resources well is a better option than getting greedy with a 4th color. the sideboard plan shores up many of the bad matchups, as 3 relics help with green creature decks, mind harness as well, and post board equipment decks should be beatable. sulfur elemental and grim answer mom and thalia, and the combo matchups outside of dredge should be solid.
Have you missed the Stifles from your maindeck? It seems like removing Stifles moves this deck from the 'slow the opponent down then drop your bomb' plan towards a more controlley style.
The deck is already functionally a traditional Blue based control deck as it stands. You play draw go, you drop your win condition when you have board control, etc. You can still pressure your opponent with Clique and burn out with Bolt/Snap-Bolt; however, most of your games you will be heavily reactive. You do not have a proactive plan. The most proactive I think I have ever seen this deck play is to play Goyf/Clique on turn 3 and follow with Jace when your opponent overextendeds to answer it. At that point, you have some sort of protection because they overextended. Spell Pierce adds to that line of protection where Stifle does not.
On a side note, I tried the Punishing Fire engine in this (adapted from the Guided RUG list) and it was interesting, to say the least. I did feel like I am shooting my combo matches in the foot, which seriously concerned me. Has anyone else tried that set up (something similar to endure's list except with 4 Punishing Fire over the Spell Pierce and Fire/Ice).
I agree... however I was arguing against the black splash. Much like Endure, I don't think it is necessary for the maverick matchup. All one needs to do is properly manage resources.
in response to missing stifles:
I was the into the stifles for a long, long time. I top 8d 3 NELC's with stifles in my list. However, I was always boarding them out. I didn't want them in many matchups at all, and i would much rather just make my deck more reliable and consistent rather than try and mise free stifle wins. spell pierces for me have been less narrow and have saved me a couple of times in testing. I havent taken the stifleless build to a major tournament yet but ive played plenty of games with it and it definitely feels better to me. I have not thought to myself "wish i really had stifles right now", and the only matchups where i could see myself actively thinking that are against decks with ancestral visions or against goblins. against the rest of the field, spell pierce is much better. pierce has been really good for me and is almost always relevant, where as a lot of times stifle is a dead draw. give it a try!
removing the stifles makes this a control deck. The difference with this and other control decks, however, is that once you have control you can kill someone quickly. or, if you don't have control, you have the option of racing. most games are won in a few different ways:
1. trade 1 for 1, trade, trade, trade, jace. they die under waves of brainstorming
2. trade 1 for 1, trade, trade, tarmogoyf, answer, answer, answer, bolt
3. play grim lavamancer, bolt, bolt snapcaster bolt, kill all their dudes
4. trade, trade, clique, answer, answer, answer, bolt
stifle is much better for rug builds that want to play a 1 drop, then go answer, answer, answer, answer, answer bolt bolt. Our deck is playing a midrangey to control game, and drawing stifles late is just no good for a reactive deck like this while stifle rug delver builds are trying to be proactive.
Won ~20 player event today, 5 rounds + top 8.
Main:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Counterspell
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace2.0
21 land
SB:
1 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
1 Hydroblast
2 Spell Pierce
R1 BUG Control (Kamulium @ source) 2-0
He almost stabilazed with jace after counter war, lightning bolt had a good target. I dont remember g2.
boarding -3 spell snare, -1 forked bolt, -2 fow, -1 lightning bolt | +2 spell pierce, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +2 surgical extraction
R2 Goblins R/B with the new cavern land 2-0
He mulls to 5 g1, i keep 6 with bunch of stifles and i manage to mana screw him and finish him with snapcaster + bolt. I also had to save my clique by stifling goblin incenerator cycling trigger. G2 he has very scary start with t1 vial while i had to mull to 5. I think I drew 3 goyfs and managed to manascrew him again, he had vial @ 4 which he had used for 2 goblin ringleaders but didnt have mana for any of his goblins, i managed to waste his cavern land and bolt his +1/+1 haste goblin lord which set him back enough for my goyfs to finish him.
boarding -1 jace? | +1 hydroblast
R3 SneakShow (Masti-core @ source) 2-1
G1 we have counter war over sneak attack(?) which i win, i drop goyf and start bashing with my 5/6. He show and tells griselband while he is at 9 life (2 cards in hand after this), i have bolt in hand as my only card and 4 lands + goyf, i draw jace and think a long time do i play it straight into daze or will i kamikaze my goyf and bolt his grizel. I end up playing the jace and he had daze. I pass and he smashes for 7 and draws 7 and plays sneak attack. I draw land and attack with goyf which is 6/7 now that jace is in the yard and then bolt him for the final points but he had drawn misdirection off grisel, i scoop and im little baffled i couldnt win.
G2 We both kept 1 lander and both bricked on brainstorm (pretty funny). I had toplay surgical extraction targeting my brainstorm in the yard (and finding 0, removing 0) to shuffle my deck. I manage to pull a lucky win with surgical extraction on his show and tell after he had intuitioned for 3 of them. He made mistake countering my goyf with fow when he'd have 15/15 spaghetti monster next turn so saving the fow would have won the game for him.
I dont remember what happened g3 but i won.
boarding -2 grim lavamancer, -1 forked bolt, -3 spell snare, -1 sylvan library, -1 lightning bolt? | +2 surgical extraction, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +1 hydroblast, +2 spell pierce
R4 ID with SneakShow player (who i will face later in the finals)
R5 My opponent wants to play instead of risking drawing into t8. TES 2-1
Close games, I drew my wastelands well and those won me at least 1 of the games.
boarding -2 grim lavamancer, -1 forked bolt, -1 sylvan library, -2 jace | +2 spell pierce, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +1 surgical extraction
T8 quarter finals, UWb Stoneblade 2-0
1st game took ~50minutes, 2nd game i rolled him with goyf + rebs in couple minutes after manascrewing him off white.
boarding -2 fow, -3 spell snare, -2 clique, -1 forked bolt? | +1 sulfur elemental, +2 ancient grudge, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +2 spell pierce
T8 semis, TES 2-1 (same player as r5, he made t8 despite losing to me so we could of have drawn)
I lost g2 because I didnt stifle his chrome mox and felt extreamily stupid about it afterwards. I think I have made this mistake against TES before as well. He imprinted chant and cast chant with it while my hand was 2 stifle and spell snare
G3 I wastelanded him twice and he couldnt find another land while i brainstormed about 3 or 4 times holding all sorts of counters.
boarding, same as round 5 except i brought hydroblast instead of surgical extraction
T8 finals, SneakShow 2-1
G1 we both durdle around playing ponders and nothing happens until turn 5 when I snapcaster brainstorm or clique, cant remember...
G2 I froze and forgot to make my land drop, at my cleanup step i realize i have 8 cards and discard a land, my opponent was quite confused.
I lost because i couldnt counterspell with 1 mana up for daze, I would have had clique for his only fattie in his hand next turn.
G3 spell pierce for his turn 2 blood moon and then turn 3 snapcaster flashing back spell pierce was good, my opponent also flooded badly.
boarding -2 grim lavamancer, -1 forked bolt, -3 spell snare, -1 sylvan library, -1 lightning bolt? | +2 surgical extraction, +1 reb, +2 pyroblast, +1 hydroblast, +2 spell pierce
I hope somebody who read this had a good readAny questions, just ask!
Has anyone ever tried taking the shell of this awesome archetype (base blue midrange Stifle/Daze/Wasteland with green splash for Goyf, although people have been deviating away from Stifle/Daze towards Counterspell and Spell Pierce, which is cool) and supplanting the red with white for Swords to Plowshares? You lose the reach that burn provides (meaning, there are slightly less modes of attack for this deck to make, which is slightly bad since that's one of the attributes that made this deck so awesome), REB out of the side (Spell Pierce will honestly probably do just fine), and probably the most awesome card of all-time in Fire//Ice (no defense for that), but it makes the dreaded Knight of the Reliquary matchup that much better (I don't think I need to espouse StP that much). I've been following this archetype for a while, and I don't think I've ever seen someone try it, which seems wrong; note that I'm well aware of Bant Stifle decks of yesteryear, but those also had stuff like KotR packages and stuff and weren't trying to necessarily do exactly what this deck is/was. F'rinstance, something like this:
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah/Forest (probably the former)
3 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
1 Karakas
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder (tried Preordain, like Ponder a whole lot more as of right now)
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Engineered Explosives
SB:
3 Path to Exile/Submerge
2 Spell Pierce
3 Meddling Mage
2 Disenchant/Krosan Grip/Nature's Claim
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Null Rod
As you can tell, I'm not entirely digging Spell Snare right now; it was a terrific card many moons ago and is still decent, but I currently like Spell Pierce a lot more (note that eight cantrips might be excessive, and that you could probably fit in a few for some Ponders; same goes for Counterspell).
You could also probably fit in a nice Enlightened Tutor package in the side.
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I have top8'd last 2 GPTs for Ghent and lost in t8 to Dredge (2-1) and Thopter combo (2-1).
Im surprised nobody else plays this deck, or if they do its the punishing fire pile
Why this over RUG? I think the deck has the fundamental flaw of not playing delvers.I have top8'd last 2 GPTs for Ghent and lost in t8 to Dredge (2-1) and Thopter combo (2-1).
Im surprised nobody else plays this deck, or if they do its the punishing fire pile
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
Delvers are good, I admit I want them in matchups against combo decks. But Delvers are fragile and useless in the rug mirror which i have personally a positive record of.
My current record with this deck is 18-3-3 for past 5 weeks, yesterday I lost to Dredge which I had 2 sideboard cards for
Quick matchup analysis:
RUG
Play around Daze, get value out of your snapcasters and find your goyfs. These games are very close, but you have 21 lands plus basics against their 18 or 19 with 1 or 0 basics, which is clear advantage sometimes.
Maverick
I have dedicated a lot sideboard for this matchup and its not to be taken lightly. Preboard Mother of Runes and knight are though, you need to keep the board clear and get jace or sylvan down, if you are on the play stifles and snapcasters may win you this game. Postboard I havent lost a single game yet.
Sneak Attack
Preboard try to mulligan to some protection and brainstorm aggressively early and snapcaster brainstorm on their EOT if they dont do anything. If they have the nuts there isnt much you can do, so many dead cards like spell snare/forked bolt/mancer in this MU unfortunantely. After boarding you have pretty good chances, rebs, pierces, wastelands and flashy creatures make their life miserable (like many other decks).
Reanimator
Very close to above, but even easier post board with surgicals.
Blade Control
Preboard games take usually 30-40mins from my experience, I usually win but againt a good pilot its uphill battle if they have lingering souls. Post board the only way you lose is if they resolve elspeth or you dont find ancient grudge, which from my experience doesnt happen.
Miracle Control
Personally I dont think I have played any matches against this deck in real life, on online its quite even matchup from my limited which becomes better after boarding some of those sexy rebs in.
Basically there isnt a single horrible matchup (except Dredge, unless you dedicate 4 sb slots to it). Every game is a blast to play and if you enjoy playing with snapcaster mages (you should) this is the best deck for them. Jaces are also sweet and perfect here, they improve those matchups normal RUG has trouble with, for example Stax with their chalices and whatnot.
It's called New Horizons, and it was relevant circa 2010.
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@ Kevin
The #1 reason not to go bant is REB/Pyroblast. The bolts are very interesting as they take care of planeswalkers and give reach which surprisingly often wins you the game.
I wrote a bit longer post but it was so incoherent I decided to cut this post short and keep it simple
@Dsck what does your current list look like and what are your sideboard plans for the normal RUG, Maverick, Control, and combo (sneak attack) matchups?
Friend is trying to get into the deck and usually play combo (T.E.S.) so this whole contorl deck is new to me.
thanks in advance
-Lamber101
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