I insist Leyline of sanctity x4 is the best for this deck on sb, it helps a lot to the 2 worsest match we have (burn and combo) it's a T0 drop, they can't discard it, they can't response to it. It just buy us so much time until we drop another hate card, we cannot afford to not consider it. Consider combo can kills us on T1 wining the dice.
So, take a moment to consider it, and if then you still don't think it's the best response against this kind of decks, please let me know why, because i'm totally convinced that it is. ;)
Currently I am running:
2 green suns zenith
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 terravore
1 bojuka bog
3 pernicious deed
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
3 extirpate
I like to have broad answers that can pile up on an opponent as the game goes on. If you have turn one discard and he has the turn one win, you were going to lose anyway. The chance of turn one wins are just as strong as you going turn one discard> teeg> game. Leyline does nothing to stop the slower combo decks like high tide waiting until turn three and going off in your face:/
It also has the same mulligan problems that the other leylines have. How hard do you mulligan into it? Combo decks run chain of vapor just for leylines, you go turn 1 leyline, they bounce it turn 1 and they go off before you can replay it.
I give them turn 1 wins to have a better match up overall.. You could of course just side 15 in against combo....
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
frogg: I disagree.Originally Posted by lavafrogg
Storm combo players (the ones who can kill you on T1) have many more chances of getting their T1 kill than rock deck player getting discard>teeg>win. Think about it.
I'd played a lot against combos, and also I played Past in flames ANT for several months before returning to play rock again, so I know how they work.
I know leyline don't work at his max against high tide, but leyline it's just a plus for your sb hate if you know what I mean. the goal of leyline is not to stop the combo deffinetly, it's just to buy us some time until we drop the teeg, they can easly bounce leyline as like with teeg, but ensuring they cannot win on t1 (talking about Storm) is a big deal.
So helping against storm and burn with 1 uncounterable undiscartable card isn't good for you just because it doesn't help a lot against tide???
Leyline is an anticombo card that cannot be countered unlike teeg and is another wall they need to bounce before kill us. We need to drop as many walls as we can and play discards as long with dropping a tarmogoyf to ensure a win against combo.
Two days ago I lost against a TES even dropping 2 leylines, a teeg and played 2 thoughtseizes, just because I cannot find the tarmogoyf. He chain'd them all and won, but it took some turns.
Was playing tonight with this sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of night
2 Virtue's Ruin
1 Path to Exile
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Krosan Grip
I feel like I'm REALLY too stacked on the Maverick hate, but I really hate not having Deed against some of those really random matchups. Timely was great once successfully cast, and Life from the Loam in the main was MVP as well.
I noticed most aren't running Grips, but I feel like I'll want them as soon as I stop running them. So much random garbage that Grip does deal with. I feel like the cuttable slots are the Grips and the Thrun. He's great at times, but othertimes, especially with the tokens, the board is clogged and he doesn't do much. We'll see.
-Matt
Sheep- If they turn one killed as often as you are saying they do everyone would have to play blue to not gg to a competent storm player. Maverick beats storm regularly. It is impossible for a Maverick player to stop a storm player before turn two. Think about it.
At this point I feel like you have been traumatized by your local storm player and should promptly switch to either rug or stoneblade to wreck him a couple of weeks in a row. Then maybe he will switch to something a little more interactive, and then you can rock his socks off(see what I did there?).
With my list and sideboard plan, I am far from dead against storm but I am far from a matchup they want to see. I am fine with that, especially since I can play three different combo decks in three different rounds and have a plan against them all, instead of siding in very specific cards. I will admit that I have a terrible burn matchup, with my burn plan consisting of discard, tarmogoyf and prayer, but I will stand by burn not being a real deck.
Timely reinforcements is probably a really good card right now btw, it should really be an instant....
p.s. I really want some number of krosan grips in my board but the only thing 3x pridemages cannot handle is humility.....
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@Frogg: It's a cool perspective you have there, and I respect it.
But let me explain a little more about my decisition of sb, maybe we can gather a convey here.
First of all, Storm doesn't always win on T1, but it's a chance. As I said, I'd played Storm for a long time, and I know how many chances I have to a T1 kill.
Maverick beat storms regurally, yeah it's true, but also you must understant that Maverick doesn't have just teeg to deal with storm, they also have Aven mindcensor, Thalia and Ooze (some times in late game it can stop a past in flames based combo).
So, you are right about maverick beating storm, but you are not considering they are running anticombo cards that we are not running.
In my meta exist a variety of combos and burn decks, I'm not traumatize at all as you said, I just want to ensure that I have at least a chance against them. That's better than throwing out the towel and just sitting there "praying" (?).
Also, maybe you are right about that with your current list and sideboard plan you are far from dead to combos. And maybe leyline isn't the card for you, but it could be the card to regular rock decklists.
In other topic, burn is a very real and effective deck, believe me, and I have the privilege to tell you that Burn is one of the Tier1 decks on Spain and part of Europe, also it's a deck that can beat any tier deck if they are not prepared to see it on a tournament.
@sdematt: Timely reinforcements is nice :). i haven't used it yet, but i'll give it a try.
I'm trying nature's claim over grips, because of the current use we give to it.
counterbalance it's not anymore a deck we can expect to see very often on a tournament. We can destroy a batterskull, if it's well played. Also it costs 2 less than grip, and the life we give aren't very relevant since we can seal the game with some attacks. It's just an opinion btw :)
I understand the Rock runs quite a few non-creature spells, but has anyone tried running Thalia in a list? I'm a Maverick player, and feel most of the deck's recent success comes off the back of Thalia. While Hymn is good, I've seen it be a terrible top deck; couldn't the deck cut its Hymns or Pernicious Deeds from the main, and bring them back versus relevant matchups?
Sheep, I'll be honest here, your confusing the shit out of me. You admit that a deck that runs 2cc hate bears and is cold to turn one combo kills can beat combo decks but a deck that runs discard plus hate bears cannot beat combo.
I am suggesting discard+teeg+ooze+canonist+lilliana as an out to combo, which is more than you are suggesting. Canonist even gives you an out to hive mind!!
I am at work right now but I would love options besides leyline.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
i participated in a local legacy tournament w/ >80 participants, here's my report
//main
4 bob
4 KOTR
4 goyf
3 sfm
4 thoughtseize
4 hymn
2 vindicate
1 maelstrom pulse
4 stp
2 sdt
1 jitte
1 batterskull
2 liliana of the veil
1 deed
3 bayou
3 scrubs
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant
4 marsh
3 waste
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
sb
4 LOTV
3 choke
2 deed
1 EE
3 duress
2 diabolic edict
R1 vs high tide w/ candelabra
G1: i kept a hand with discards(cuz my friend tip me that my opponent is a high tide player), even i disrupt him in turn 1-3 he managed to combo off
G2: sfm package out, -1 vindicate, +3 duress, +3 choke; i managed to control his hand a land a liliana and she got ultimate i wreck his field after lily's strip his hand, and i win
G3: time out
result: draw
R2 vs NO bant
G1: an aggressive thrun from the NO bant and do beatdown to my face but i managed to pull a lily and edict thrun from that point i controlled the board w/ tarmo+skull and gave me the win
G2: -4 hymn, -1 sfm, +3 choke, +2 diabolic edict; this game went so so long but thanks to my SDT and bob i managed to pull relevant cards against him and i landed a lily but time is out for this round
result: 1-0-1
R3 vs punishing maverick
G1: i mull to 5 w/ a lone bayou, my first 7 contained no land and also my 6, my opponent smashed my face w/ a thrun+jitte
G2: -4 hymn, -1 liliana, +2 deed, +1 EE, +2 edict; i controlled his board w/ my deeds but i drew consecutive lands after the deed explosion from there he managed to recover
result: 1-1-1
R4 vs esper countertop thopter
G1: i thoughtseized his thopther but the following turn he dropped a counterbalance, i managed to dropped a goyf but on his turn he drop ensaring bridge so my goyf is like a stone :), i passed my turn and he drop jace TMS from there he use his first ability to me and control my draws, total lock when he cast his SDT, i concede
G2: -sfm package, -4 hymn, +3 choke, +3 duress, +2 deed, +1 EE; an early choke punished his tap tundra, tundra, underground sea leaving a lone plains open for his mana but i vindicated it but he drop academy ruins but my online KOTR fetched a waste and waste his a. ruins, from that i locked his field and do beatdown
G3: he gave me the win cuz he his leaving
result: 2-1-1
R5 vs belcher
G1: he managed to do 14 gobs from ETW in his turn 1 play, i concede
G2: -sfm package, -1 vindicate, +3 duress, +1 EE, +2 deed; early disruptions and bob gave me the edge and landed a lily sweet :) he concede
G3: i kept a hand of 1 bayou, 1 maze of ith, 1 thoughtseize, 2 hymn to tourachs, 1 tarmogoyf, 1 stp hoping for a second black mana or fetch to come, he managed to go off on his turn 3 (sad my turn 2 i drew a plains and drew a deed in my firs turn) ETW gave him 10 gobs, nothing relevant card i drew (wishing for a mana land or fetch for my deed) he smashed my face w/ his gobs
result: 2-2-1
R6 vs BW tokens
G1: very annoying lingering souls tokens gave him the win
G2: -4 hymn, -1 vindicate, +2 deed, +1 EE, +2 duress: i blowed his field and drop a bog exiling the lingering card and massive beatdown gave me the win
G3: blowed again his field and in the late game SDT+bob gave me advantage to drop KOTR+skull
result: 3-2-1
R7 vs faithless dredge
G1: he managed to go off and very annoying zombies made me sick
G2: -4 hymn, -2 liliana, -2 vindicate, -1 sfm, -1 skull, +4 LOTV, +3 duress, +2 deed, +1 EE; double LOTV in my opening hand (fuck yea!) from that point he cant resist the voids so he gave me the win
G3: poor understanding at my opening 7 i dont have voids there but i have KOTR, sfm, EE and some lands, so i kept it; but my opponent do series of cabals sacs his zombies and my hand is pretty useless and i managed to resolved a bob, and on my turn reveals a LOTV >:) but i never recover from his annoying zombies
result: 3-3-1
*maybe if i mull to lotv from my 3rd game it will increase my game chances against dredge
hope you enjoy my tournament result.
Sorry you didn't win it all....:)
I think if you are going to play the leylines you have to at least mull to 6 game three, your hand was okay but with leylines it is either turn zero or turn four... a huge difference and part of the reason why I don't play the leylines n any of my match-ups.
It sounds like Lilliana was a house for you all day long, this is good:)
How did SFM work out? You don't mention him in your report, except for when you board them out! I find that he just doesn't do enough where you need him to wreck face, just my opinion though.
What is your boarding plan for maverick? and stone blade?
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
thanks for the comment lavafrogg :)
1) reason being using LOTV in my sb, we analyzed the past local legacy tourney in our place as a result several reanimators and dredge hit the top rank, and this past sunday many people played reanimator as well as dredge (one of my friend played manaless this time) unfortunately i encountered only 1 GY based deck (round 7) :)
2) liliana of the veil, actually i doubt if i will use her in my deck reason being she wreck also my hand, but in actual games she gave me massive advantage (combo players really love her, after deed explosion (from aggro opponent) i love to drop her and do her alluring +1 ability and her lovely -6 :) ) she is totally fits the deck
3) sfm package, reason being i included her cuz i want to have an slight increase in game chances against burn (our worst match up), if you noticed in my tournament report i do short cut above her, if i mean like kotr+batterskull it means that sfm fetch a batterskull, but according to my observation about sfm in my deck she is good but not that essential in a rock deck.
4) board plan against maverick, if i consider my sb thingy this past sunday i will put all of my mass removals, deeds, EE, perish is good but it cant hit mother, thalia, aven, sfm, i prefer to have mass removals it can also removed their equipments
5) about stoneblade, i talked to some stoneblade players in game 2 against deck like ours they remove FOW and replaced by some removals like PTE, o-ring, so i think some duress do some jobs to their brainstorms/pte/stp/spell snare/spell pierce/equipments and also choke cuz most of the stoneblade build are 4-3 islands and 4 tundras, deed and EE for the field if some equipment sneaks onto the play and i prefer to throw my vindicate/pulse to their Planeswalker rather to their equipments
suggestions are welcome :)
ryn, nice observations.
A few thoughts on some cards being discussed:
Thalia: She's awesome, no doubt, but we only typically run 12-16 dudes. And we already have enough "expensive spells". Hymn maybe questionable right now, but we still have plenty of options in that slot that still aren't synergistic with Thalia (Inquisition/Thoughtseize and more answers). Maverick we are not. Leave her for the creature decks.
Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip: Depending on the cards you run maindeck (Vindicate/Pridemage/E.E./Deed), we should already have a decent game against problematic artifacts and enchantments. Certainly we'll want more answers for the Stoneblade matchups. And maybe Countertop isn't that popular right now. But for my money, I'd still rather see a Krosan Grip above any other spell in this category. Because when you need to kill that artifact, you usually REALLY need to kill it. Esper packs plenty of counterspells and Snapcasters, and hitting Batterskull when they have 3 open mana up is amazing. Point being, I think in the late game Krosan Grip gains far more value than the 2 mana savings is worth on Claim. You only run 1-2 anyway, why not make it count?
Timely Reinforcements: Cool idea. Not sure if I'll run it or not, but it's worth considering. I'm personally planning on running 2 maindeck Jitte's (no Mystics) as my source of lifegain and to deal with the numerous X/1's running around. I briefly considering Phyrexian Unlife as well, but decided that even gaining 11 life for 3 mana isn't quite good enough in Legacy. Reinforcements is better when you get the tokens, but in our deck there is a chance you won't get the tokens.
Liliana of the Veil: Lavafrogg has said plenty of good things about this planeswalker, and I really can't disagree with most of them. However, just remember that she can sometimes be a 3-mana edict (against RUG, Maverick, Tribal Decks and Lingering Souls specifically), but she will usually be worth an extra card. If you play to protect her, and have synergy with her +1, she can be great. But sometimes they will just discard Lingering Souls, so watch out. With NO strategies making a comeback, and Combo decks in general on the rise, I will probably be packing 2 of these at SCG Providence. 1 Elspeth is still a mainstay in my 75 though.
Leyline of the Void (coincidentally these are both abbreviated LOTV, so watch those acronyms!): This card is either really good, or really bad. If Reanimator and Dredge were all the rage and you were guaranteed to face them in multiples (as ryn_ball anticipated at his tournament), it's worth the downsides. But I'd rather have a mixture of Spellbombs/Bogs/Relics and Extraction effects, as there are more matchups where they are relevant. Leyline is not nearly as useful when you draw it lategame, whereas Spellbomb and Surgical still do something, especially against Snapcasters and opposing Goyf/Knight decks.
I'm still deciding on whether or not to run Hymn to Tourach and Mox Diamond. I'm leaning toward the Yes, DO IT! side right now though. They both suck in the late game, but I'm afraid if I don't have that edge, I might lose some of the punch this deck packs. Being able to turn 1 Hymn, turn 2 drop a threat and then Wasteland them is one of our best opening plays. Seems like combo is pretty prominent these days, and Hymn still helps a lot against the fast tempo/aggro decks when you can fire it off in the early turns.
She's very strong as long as you're able to negate her ability. With this deck running so few creatures (especially in comparison to Maverick) her ability starts to turn back on you. Swords loses value at 1W but it's still good. On the other hand, Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse aren't nearly as good at 4cc. Additionally, we don't always have the best mana situation.
On the plus side, she could be a pretty good/great board card. In my list she'd fill a similar role as Ethersworn Canonist. I wonder if her taxing ability would be better than the spell limiting ability. I don't have a situation that I'd swap them in mind right now but that doesn't mean that it's always better.
The issue there is that outside of the Combo decks and Burn, I wouldn't want to see her any more that most of my other creatures and her ability would typically be just as relevant (Saving making Jace a 5cc planeswalker).
-----
I understand but do not advise meta-gaming card selection. I play in a place that's FULL of wastelands and FoWs. I count on blue decks to really be that 76th card that wrecks combo, but I also have cards for it.
The thing to remember is this: Even if you see 50% of the field playing a strategy, you can't guarantee you're going to play them. Board for keeping everything under control. Don't board to beat 1 strategy. We lose when we can't adapt.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, "Don't put all your eggs in one basket." Other cards are good against these decks while being useful against the others (example: Gaddock Teeg vs Dredge). Because LED Dredge is the popular version and there are times where you just lose, I recommend something free to use as your graveyard hate. That leaves you with 2 options: Leyline of the Void and Surgical Extraction.
p.s. Reanimator is the only graveyard based deck we have to worry about counters and I feel it's a good match-up so I'd go with Surgical Extraction > Extirpate.
I'm a little confused here. So you're not keeping her because she preformed well? If she's winning you the game (not literally), why cut her?
-----
My only worry is that we are not a creature deck. With the Batterskull and 1 other piece of equipment we have essentially 1 piece of equipment that requires a creature to hold it. Are we able to have a second? Let us know how this goes. I know Maverick has been doing that as of late but they only have a couple non-creature spells (Swords & Equipment. Zenith is a creature).
-----
Other random things I've seen:
Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip - Neither of these actually do much for the list if you have Pridemage and/or Vindicate/Pulse. If you feel you need them, you're basically choosing between something that can't be countered vs something that's easy to play. there is no Counterbalance that's hard to beat. Heck, even when the cards was in heavy rotation, WE LIKED THAT MATCHUP. Half the time we still didn't play Grip as Vindicate would typically do the job. So, why are we worried about counters now?
Timely Reinforcements - It's a possibility. The 6 life is very relevant against burn. Are the 3 1/1's going to he helpful is the thing. If they're not maybe we should be looking at other cards that just gain the life cheaper (Nourish). We won't know unless we test it out. I've got 2 slots in my board as of right now and a Mox tournament next week. I'll either be testing Rock (if I have the room I'll try it) or the Bug list we've been working on.
Leyline of the Void vs Surgical Extraction - I'm only using these two in the GY slot because LED dredge is back. We need something in case they go off before our turn. I like Extraction. Frogg already mentioned it being the difference of Turn 0 or 4. It's nice to not have it bounce before you can play it and then preform. On that note, All of the Graveyard based decks use some type of discard. Having your extractions discarded hurts just as much but, being able to hide it with top until needed is a plus.
If you're going to play Leyline, be prepared to muligan aggressively to it. Otherwise, it's not worth it. Also, you may run into the opponent who forgets this card is in the format and steal wins that way. It's a risk.
Liliana of the Veil (Lili) - Her ability is symmetrical. This isn't the first cards that's been symmetrical. Deed and other sweepers have the same effects. Plan for it. Sometimes you do have difficult decisions in which card to get rid of but, It's well worth it. Every time I've read someone say they played Lili she's taken over the game or done something big. Even if she just edicts once then dies, She edicts with lifegain (they had to kill her somehow). She is never "just an edict." If the return of the Natural Order package is true, She's a way to beat Progenitus.
Short-handing Cards - Leyline and Liliana both are abbreviated LotV. Let's use Lili (because I like it, it's easier (she'll be more mentioned than Leyline), Leyline was already LotV, and it's been used a bunch before this) for Liliana of the Veil and LotV for Leyline. That should make it a bit easier for all of us. Agreed?
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
On an note: Lilliana vs Stoneblade:
Lilliana effect is symmetrical, we should be running Dark Confidants, Life from the Loams, and recursion to counteract the effect of the card on us. When The stoneblade player discards a swords and snap casts it back or a lingering souls and flashes it back, these are the best options that they have. You essentially removed the effect of snapcaster mage or the flashback from souls. That is not a bad deal seeing how we do not have a problem with equipment and our creatures are always bigger than theirs.
With a Lilliana on the board you have another angle to attack them from. You have the graveyard, creature combat and the planeswalker herself. They need to have control in all three locations or they lose. If they resolve a Jace and you have a Lilliana, you +1 and then fact or fiction their lands away. Then play the creatures in your hand or the cards you have been drawing off of loam.
It is not bad for them to play cards they can still use because you do it better.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I don't actually think we "do it better" with Lili's +1 in the Stoneblade matchup. Many of us are not running 4x Life from the Loam, which is really the only card that truly breaks the parity in a typical Junk list. Confidant provides card advantage, sure, but the whole point is that he helps us get ahead, not come from behind. He also is never guaranteed to stick. And what recursion are you referring to Lavafrogg? Lili is still fine in the Stoneblade match, but it's not because we break parity really well, but that they don't run that many creatures.
I think the reason that it's okay to run Liliana in Junk is that we actually tend to start topdecking quickly in a lot of matches, but we are set up to get better card quality of the top of our deck. She breaks parity in that situation very well (especially when they still have a few cards left), and also can ensure that all of our early discard and disruption spells have something to fall back on. But I don't think that you can really say we break her symmetry with ease, especially against a Snapcaster/Souls deck.
We could build around her more, and actually achieve value from her +1, but to me that would require something like 4x Lingering Souls, 3-4x Life from the Loam, 4 Liliana, and probably something like 4x Bloodghast to really ensure we gain value. But even in your list with 4 Loams, Lavafrogg, you aren't always going to have a target to break the parity with.
But all this is fine, you just have to be aware of it. I'm not afraid of discarding a useless card if it means I also get to use her Edict next turn. But I won't be all that happy when my opponent drops Lingering Souls or is holding Snapcaster. It is a bad deal if we had to lose a useful card to their 1/2 of a card.
There's more than one way to skin a cat. Library and Top both work very well with Lili's +1. You're right that we go to top-deck mode very quickly, Lili helps us get them their as well. We are ready for it with access to Top, Library, or Bob. Most of the time they are not as brainstorm is not a recurring effect. In that sense, we do it better.
They may not have the Souls to discard or something relevant to do with the Snapcaster. If they do, that sucks, If you have inquisitions and Lili out, no matter how small their hand, use the inquisition. That will at least allow you to decide, if possible, whether or not to edict with Lili.
Lili, like any planeswalker, requires assistance to be good. As far as coming from behind, that's her ultimate. You just have to hold on to her while she charges and you should never lose a game afterwards.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I'm assuming this is NOT the time then to explain skinning a cat with an instructional video?
-Matt
@ryn ball
I'm your last round opponent from last sundays major tournament. The tournament had over 100 participants btw :) The high tide player was my team mate. Nice report there, amazing how you remembered everything. Anyway, I think I just got lucky because your maindeck and sideboard is crazy against dredge. So many problematic cards. With our metagame last sunday a lot of GY hate is good for the SB. I think Leylines are very good against Dredge, anything that can be used turn 0 is good because if you guys go to game 3, and the dredge player goes 1st, he may go off turn 1 and anything that costs mana might be too late, I've even beaten a tormod's crypt because of turn 1 go off. Faerie Macabre, Leyline and Surgical are best in handling dredge, you can use them even when it's not your turn.
Leyline is a more painful Sideboard because some dredge players don't really side in anti-hate game 2. That's what happened in our game 2, i bluffed sideboarding but I didn't really change much in the deck. Opening Leyline needs an answer and most Dredge decks only pack 3-4 anti-hate cards. With the current sideboarding options of people I've faced they all use surgical extraction so I hardly side in anti-hate. Leyline of the Void was actually very surprising for me and I think that's what you should run with our current meta.
You know I went to youtube and almost posted a video about it right. Youtube has everything.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Its late and I don't feel like arguing sideboards or lists so I am going to propose some garbage to the rock thread: Have we ever considered entomb and an entomb package to our lists or is knight just all we need?
Entomb for: Loam, Lands(with loam), creatures(with stronghold/witness), fatties(with reanimate???), worm harvest, raven's crime(god this is all with loam...)....ummmm shit I'm bad at this....okay...so I play loam in my list and am considering testing some entomb action, has anyone thought of it or tried it before?
Borealis: Noxious revivals are seeing play in the stoneblade matchup, Eternal witness is a house against them, volrath's stronghold should be in everyone's 60....recursion is a good thing!
About leylines....if you absolutely know you are going to face the 1-2 decks that the leyline is going to wreck....by all means play the leylines. Against fast combo, I do not think leylines affect the matchup percentage enough to be worth the slots. Against burn I have similar feelings but you most likely get the win, just like leyline against dredge. 4 slots for 1 matchup is not worth it in my mind. Especially if you think you will see burn and combo, I believe a more broad plan is needed fro a legacy metagame.
All in all I guess my findings are with my list so I am going back to: Lilliana+loam is fucking house and everyone should start their lists with those two cards and go from there!!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
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