[Deck] Goblins

[RaZe]

I woulda gone with the mana denial plan too. Goblins are good at cheating in their creatures. You a piloting a warcheif build with 21 lands.

[jrw1985]

Tournament Report

Decklist

1x Stingscourger
1x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Goblin Piledriver
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
3x Mogg Fanatic
4x Goblin Chieftain
3x Warren Instigator
1x Tuktuk Scrapper

2x Tarfire
2x Pyrokinesis

16x Mountain
4x Wasteland

4x AEther Vial

Sideboard

1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Anarchy
1 Chaos Warp

R1 BWU Thopter Swords
G1 We both mull to 5. I keep a hand of Fanatic and 4 lands. Since I have the lands and I'm on the play I think that Fanatic might be able to get there. Well, I topdeck like 5 more lands so I'm not able to put an offense together. Once he has the Thopter combo and a Humility in play I pack em up.
SB - Chaos Warp, Anarchy, REB, and Surgical Extraction all come in. Stingscourger, Gempalms, Tarfire, and a few Ringleaders come out.
G2 T1 Lackey. He plays a T1 Tundra. I T2 Waste it and cheat a Seige-Gang into play. W.
G3 He plays a T1 tundra and does nothing with it. I T1 Waste it. No response. He plays a fetch T2. I play Mountain and Lackey. Lackey starts connecting and I get a board position going. He plays an Enlightened Tutor at my end step to put an Engineered Plague on top. I've been holding onto a Surgical so I remove a Brainstorm from his grave and shuffle the Plague back in. I land a Kiki Jiki and a Tuktuk and run the board after that. I did make one mistake when I had him dead on the board. He was at 7 life and I had an active Sharpshooter and Siege-Gang Commander and 4 mana open. I thought I could only do 6 damage (sac, sharp, sac, sharp) when I could have done the full 7 (sharp, sac, sharp, sac, sharp). Keep that in mind if you use Sharpshooter. He deals 1 more damage than you think he does.
1-0

R2 ANT w Past in Flames
I don't know what they're calling this deck these games, but it's basically ANT with a few Volcanic Islands and 1 Past in Flames.
G1 I win the roll and am on the play. Last round went pretty late so I haven't had a chance to scout. My opponent hasn't been to the shop in a long time, so I have no idea what he's on. He used to play ANT, Merfolk, and Bant, so I'm thinking he's probably on RUG since I've most recently seen him play a deck with FoW. My opening hand has Vial and Lackey. Since I'm thinking RUG I go the slower route and cast T1 Vial. He plays T1 Polluted Delta, Fetches into a basic Island, and Ponders. Whoops. I've clearly misread, but he mulled to 6 this game so I might still have a chance. I get him down to ten and will win next turn when he goes off. Had I led with Lackey, and considering that he had a slow start on a mull to 6, it was a game I could have won. I probably should have gone for broke and led with Lackey.
There's a lot of discussion on this forum about whether to lead with Vial or Lackey. I just want to point out that Lackey is always your best play against storm combo. I really screwed the pooch by leading with Vial this game.
Sideboard - 4 Mindbreak, 2 Chalice, 2 REB, 2 Surgical - took out Pyro, Sharpshooter, Stingscourger, Vial.
G2 On the play I open on a hand with 1 Mountain, Winstigator, and 2 Chalice. Seems good. i just need to topdeck 1 mountain and we're good to go. I play T1 Chalice at 0. He Ponders. I miss a 2nd land drop. He makes me discard Chalice #2. It takes a few turns but I finally get a 2nd Mountain and play Winstigator. My opponent starts blanking on his draws and I somehow manage the win. Chalice at 0 is always the way to go against decks trying to abuse LED.
G3 I open on a hand with Lackey and Mindbreak Trap. Trap gets Duressed and Lackey starts connecting. He manages to go off before I can kill him or draw more hate.
1-1

R3
Burn
I lose both games pretty easily. Terrible MU. When I was building my SB the night before I kept thinking about siding in a Keeper of Kookus as a tutorable answer to Goblin Guide, but ultimately opted for Chaos Warp over it. I don't think Keeper is even that good of a card against Burn, but there aren't many other answers. MWM would have been good here but I've been playing Mogg Fantics instead. Maybe a 2/2 split of Leyline of Sanctity and Mindbreak Trap would have been a better option. Stupid Burn being a real deck.

[ScatmanX]

I kept thinking about siding in a Keeper of Kookus as a tutorable answer to Goblin Guide, but ultimately opted for Chaos Warp over it.

Wow! 3 Reports!
too bad I was too drunk and managed to miss my tournament =(

Tarfire and Gempalm boh do the trick here. Guide is a Goblin, so you only need 1 guy to burn it donw...

[Davran]

Tarfire and Gempalm boh do the trick here. Guide is a Goblin, so you only need 1 guy to burn it donw...

So I never actually realized that Gempalm counts goblins in play, not goblins in play that you control.

Pro tip kids: reading cards wins games.

As for Goblin Guide...it's never really a problem for me. What usually gets me is the Fireblast that they always have. As soon as I think to myself "well this line is ok unless he has a Fireblast"...I know that he has the Fireblast.

I usually side in my Thorns of Amethyst against burn...it's not the greatest thing ever, but it does slow them down. Seems like Chalice @ 1 would be fantastic here too, even though it disrupts our game plan. I feel like we are the control in the burn match-up anyway.

You could always go for the "left field" approach and run Dragon's Claw in the sideboard. You can bet that no one will see that one coming...

[GoboLord]

My opening hand has Vial and Lackey. Since I'm thinking RUG I go the slower route and cast T1 Vial.

That is true. I don't know why but I feel that turn 1 vial is better than T1 most of the times. The thing is: I can't name why - it's only my intuition. We seldomly have the luxury of having BOTH T1-drops in my opening hand, but whenever this is the case I somehow feel like Vial is...more secure...maybe?
I don't know why. Can someone tell me? (and please don't start over a discussion of pro's and con's of both cards - we know them all. I like to know why Vial feels better most of the times in direct comparison)

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I like to know why Vial feels better most of the times in direct comparison)

It's 3 points for me:

1. There are a lot more answers to lackey then to vial so vial is more reliable

2. vial at 1 can still eot cheat a dangerous lackey into play if your opponent did not prepare

3. Because of the ticking vial profits a lot from being played first turn. You want your vial at 3, at wich point it outperforms the lackey imho.


I like cavern of souls btw :)
[edit]Hmm... but the creature spells restriction is really nasty. Would be a bomb without it though.

[joemauer]

Hey guys. I don't usually play goblins, but I did Saturday at the SCG grinder.
There were thirty something people at it and I have no idea how I placed. Went 3-1 and got six packs of dark ascension. Borrowed 4eak's deck, standard G/W list.
Here is a tiny report:

Round One(Hive Mind, same guy who top four'd Sunday at the main event):

Game one: I apply some quick pressure and intuitions into show and tell. He plays show and tell and my singleton Stingscourer trumps his Emmy. :)
Game two: He casts Show and Tell, I REB and then forces back. It resolves and I lose to his slaughter pact.
Game Three: I keep playing lackeys first gets forced. Around turn four, I have a Lackey, two Mogg Fanatics, and a Warchief in play. I was going to bring the pain next turn. He show and Tells on his turn, me laying down Stingscourer and him Hive Mind. He plays a slaughter pact targeting my warchief. I use my copy to target one of my fanatics and sac to fizzle my spell. He only had two Islands and City of Traitors in play so he tries to Force his own Slaughter Pact, but I just use my force copy to counter his force. He loses to his pact.

Round 2(maverick or maybe junk):
Game One: I play a Lackey. He plays MoM. I turn two kill his MoM with Gempalm. He can't keep up after my Lackey connects.
Game two: Went on for a while due to his Scavenging Ooze. I just keep chump blocking until I am able to play like a dozen goblins because of a couple ringleaders I got my Matron. I win.

Round 3(affinity):
Game one: I keep a sketchy hand. It has a lackey and I thought every hand with lackey is great even if it has five lands. He does what affinity should do against a bad goblins player and kills me quickly.
Game two: He tries to dispatch my lackey on his turn two, and I gempalm one of his Memnites in response. Next turn I Mogg fanatic his other Memnite and waste one of his lands. He is then stuck with a land and two springleaf drums. I get there somehow.
Game three: I can't answer his fast with all my Krosan Grips. I lose pretty quickly. Pro Tip: Piledriver can easily block a Master of Etherium. This probably would have helped me if I did so.

Round four(fauna shaman maverick):
Game one: Lackey connects. That is the only important note.
Game two: I kill his two MoMs with a decoy Gempalm backed with a Pryokenesis. I win quickly.

So there you have it. I haven't played goblins since it was legal in Standard. So if I can be successful with it I am pretty sure anyone can.

Side note: Caverns wouldn't have made a lick of a difference in the matches I played. Port was usually only Wasteland Bait. Port only remotely helped versus the Hive Mind player.

[jrw1985]

That is true. I don't know why but I feel that turn 1 vial is better than T1 most of the times. The thing is: I can't name why - it's only my intuition. We seldomly have the luxury of having BOTH T1-drops in my opening hand, but whenever this is the case I somehow feel like Vial is...more secure...maybe?
I don't know why. Can someone tell me? (and please don't start over a discussion of pro's and con's of both cards - we know them all. I like to know why Vial feels better most of the times in direct comparison)

If I have Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief I'm going to want to start with the Vial because I know I can use it each turn. If I start with Lackey it will most likely be burned or countered. If I lead with Vial it can only be countered, so you're more likely to make T1 Vial stick. Basically, having a Vial and a ramping hand basically means you're going to get to maximize the Vial against creature-based decks. Against combo decks you don't have time to maximize the use of Vial, you just need the speed of Lackey. The problem with being on the play G1 is that you won't know which play is correct unless you've been able to scout your opponent, or he gives up some information while shuffling, setting-up, mulliganing (whatever).

[GoblinSettler]

If I have Vial, Lackey, Piledriver, Warchief I'm going to want to start with the Vial because I know I can use it each turn. If I start with Lackey it will most likely be burned or countered. If I lead with Vial it can only be countered, so you're more likely to make T1 Vial stick. Basically, having a Vial and a ramping hand basically means you're going to get to maximize the Vial against creature-based decks. Against combo decks you don't have time to maximize the use of Vial, you just need the speed of Lackey. The problem with being on the play G1 is that you won't know which play is correct unless you've been able to scout your opponent, or he gives up some information while shuffling, setting-up, mulliganing (whatever).

Facing an unknown opposing deck, I like to lead with Lackey. My thinking is that Lackey will get there or draw a counter so that Vial sticks. Both outcomes work for me.

[ScatmanX]

Facing an unknown opposing deck, I like to lead with Lackey. My thinking is that Lackey will get there or draw a counter so that Vial sticks. Both outcomes work for me.

As much as I prefer going with Vial, against unknown player I usually go with Lackey too.
Also, if he does not know you, he may no be prepared to a T1 Lackey, and just lose.

@joemauer: Congrats on the finish!
How did you feel piloting the deck? Will this became a regular thing?
Also, didn't knew 4eak had a goblins.

[jrw1985]

Facing an unknown opposing deck, I like to lead with Lackey. My thinking is that Lackey will get there or draw a counter so that Vial sticks. Both outcomes work for me.

Against an unknown deck I'd agree that Lackey is the way to go, just because it forces them to have an answer. I didn't lead with Lackey here specifically because I thought my opponent was playing RUG, which was clearly a mistake on my part.

[joemauer]

@joemauer: Congrats on the finish!
How did you feel piloting the deck? Will this became a regular thing?
Also, didn't knew 4eak had a goblins.

I really just felt like playing with a deck radically different. I was certainly rusty with it.

Goblins is more optimal in the current meta game than I thought it would be. However, I like combo decks too much to pick this deck up again any time soon. It was a fun diversion.

[movingtonewao]

cedric phillips just wrote an article on starcity about how cavern of souls is a trap for goblin players. For those who have read it, what do you guys think?

[mrblueduck]

cedric phillips just wrote an article on starcity about how cavern of souls is a trap for goblin players. For those who have read it, what do you guys think?

Phillip addresses the misconception that an uncounterable turn 1 lackey will dominate Legacy, which it obviously will not. He states and I agree, that Lackey isnt really countered all that much. However he only focuses on how it opens Goblin players to wasteland and Pop. He literally addresses no reason to like it. Now I don't know if its lazy writing or he is simply doesn't like the card, but it does mana fix and does make goblins played later in the game uncounterable. I am not saying the land is amazing, but it certainly isn't all down side like the author claims it to be.

[liamb]

cedric phillips just wrote an article on starcity about how cavern of souls is a trap for goblin players. For those who have read it, what do you guys think?

I don't know if Cavern of Souls would be good. But the writer just focused on turn one play (Goblin Lackey). He didn’t point that it helps to hardcast key creatures like matron and ringleader (we can't always rely on lackey). Sure that by playing this land we are more exposed to wasteland. But by this aren’t we accomplish our mana denial plan? It’s really hard to tell now how would the Avacyn Restored affect on legacy. If blue decks would start to dominate the meta why this card would be bad?

[BigBopper]

I can see some points of what he's saying. Usually it's not necessary countermagic we loose to. I mean in a meta full of Canadian, goblins is a bad matchup, while we're actually having a rough time playing creature based decks like Maverick.

Cavern of Souls gets a big point from me for being able to cast TSH without a Taiga and without seeing a Spell Pierce, which is really important these days especially with all that blades running around.

Of course he's right about the manabase. That's what got discussed here the last 10 pages: play a monored deck without duals and fetches to not get affected by wasteland and stifle. But if we struggle with savannah based decks it is a must to splash black and play perish/virtue's ruin! And in this case you need to open your manabase either way.

with that being said, I mean cavern of souls is must have and improves our MU vs. blue decks.

[Mantis]

@GoboLord: It depends against what you are up. Against decks that have no answer to Lackey, always open with Lackey as these decks are typically combo-esque decks and you need the fastest clock available (combo and Hive Mind). Against Maverick, RUG and EsperBlade: always open with Vial. They have too many answers to Lackey and dropping Vial the turn after will result in Vial losing a lot of it's power. The only exception would be against a deck with no 1 cmc removal when you have Lackey, a powerful goblin and removal for their threat. As a general rule of thumb I would just abide to always open with Vial unless you are up against a fast deck.

[SpoCk0nd0pe]

I totally agree with mantis. If you have the choice against an unknown deck, alsways open with vial since the majority of legacy decks will have an answer to turn 1 lackey.

About Cavern of Souls: The main drawback here is the creature spell restriction. It only really helps the tin-street-hooligan.

[GoboLord]

First of all,
thank you guys for sharing your thoughts with me on the question about Lackey and Vial. You really helped me out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
On a different note I want to start a discussion about what BigBopper wrote (and what everyone seem to be thinking right now).

Cavern of Souls gets a big point from me for being able to cast TSH without a Taiga and without seeing a Spell Snare, which is really important these days especially with all that blades running around.

What I can read here is that there is a consensus that Tuktuk Scrapper ans Tin Street Hooligan are effective ways to deal with equipments.
I must say that I strongly disagree here and I want to explain myself.

When we are pondering about how to deal with those worrisome matchups (like Maverick and UWx Stoneblade) we can't help but figure out that those equipments are cards that give us hard times.
So we perceive equipments as being the troublemakers and try to find ways to get rid of them. Those ways are usually artifact-haters like Tuktuk and TSH. I don't want to argue that those cards can destroy Batterskull and Jitte (because it's literally written on them) BUT I can argue that they are not the most effective way to deal with equipments. It appears to me that we stop searching for answers as soon as we have found one. However, Tuktuk and TSH are not very GOOD answers to equipments.
I personally find it way more effective to deal with their creatures immediately (especially SFM of course) and then keep artifact hate as some sort of emergency botton. Tuktuk and TSH bear several risks that I dn't want to take:
They must stay on your hand until the equipment in question is on the battlefield. the thing is that with SFM equipments will oftentimes enter the battlefield at EOT. The problem here is, that TSH and Tuktuk usually don't have flash. This in turn means that Jitte and Batterskull wil oftentimes get "online" (i.e. the equipped creature will be able to attack and therefore trigger the equipment's triggered abilities) BEFORE Tuktuk and TSH are able to touch them. On top of that this makes them more vulnerable to discard-spells. Am I the only one who finds this thought unattractive? Probably not! So why do we keep thinking that Tuktuk and TSH will seal the deal? Answer: Because we are constantly overlooking alternatives and we insist and reinforce each other that Tuktuk and TSH indeed are effective answers (which they aren't).
So what's my suggestion? I'd go for more removal to kill SFM as reliably as possible. Yeah...I know what you might be thinking now: "but we DO have removal and we DO target SFM as often as possible". I know. However it seems to me that removal is a bit underrated and that we don't necessarily choose the best removal here. We must treat spotremoval as THE GOLDEN CARDS for this MU. I consider every spotremoval to be more worth than Tuktuk CRAPper. Remmoval has several advantages over artifact hate.
* removal-cards are rarely dead cards
* removal removes the creature (read: the BLOCKER) that could carry Jitte
* removal does not have to wait until equipments come into play (get "online")
* removal (when targetet at mana-guys or SFM) forces your opponents to CAST their equipments. This gives you higher chances on getting them with your artifact hate
* removal (at least in Goblins) can usually be played as an instant (which adds to the flexibility that Tuktuk and TSH never have)

So, what does this mean for deckconstruction?
* don't run artifact hate in MD. play MORE removal instead. I think that we should not run less than 9 removal-spells in MD
* don't overrate artifacte hate
* don't underestimate the value of spotremoval

Discuss!

[Avatara]

About Cavern of Souls: The main drawback here is the creature spell restriction. It only really helps the tin-street-hooligan.

That's like saying: the only thing Cavern of Souls does is mana fixing.

In my opinion in order to become tier one we need to be able to have 80%-20% match-ups vs at least one tier one deck. In the past this was true (see counter top and maybe even merfolk at certain times). With the inclusion of Cavern of Souls I hope that we once again get to crush them consistently, and earn our spot in the paper, rock scissors system.