[Premium Article] Breaking Temporal Mastery in Legacy -- SMIP Eternal Set Review

[wcm8]

I have some complaints about your decklists:

UGW:
-You're playing 3 Jace, TMS but only 19 lands and not even 1 Life from the Loam or any Noble Hierarchs. Jace is a fantastic late-game bomb, but I do not think this mana base can support 1-2 Jace, much less 3.
-You drop Wasteland in favor of Basics to help stabilize the mana-base. This would fine, except that you're still running tempo cards like Daze. Without Wasteland to back up these cards, they become incredibly weak outside of the first few turns, whereas other well-tuned tempo decks can leverage them for longer into the game.
-You also aren't comitting to one angle of attack with your counterspells, opting to go with a 2/2/2 split of the situational ones (Daze, Pierce, Snare). I think this is a weaker, less consistent approach than just going for a 4/2 or 3/3 split of the ones that are useful most often in this deck.

RUG:
-You drop Nimble Mongoose in favor of Vexing Devil. Do you even play this format?
-You mention that Snapcaster Mage may provide more tempo than Tarmogoyf. Hell no.
-You should be running 4 Volcanics and 3 Tropicals, not the other way around. Your only green card is Tarmogoyf, and you have far more red ones.

UR:
-This is probably the best decklist of the 3 you offered, but if you are only utilizing TM to get extra attack steps for another 3-6 damage, wouldn't Thunderous Wrath just be the better miracle card? Seems like it'd be more consistent in getting in for damage, but even here it seems weak.

I honestly doubt you did much serious testing. I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but the lists you put forth do not seem well-tuned or ready to take on the current Legacy tier 1. I think the current RUG decks would eat all of them alive since they simply have a higher density of removal and counterspells. Remember, TM can be Spell Pierce'd and the miracle trigger can be Stifled, and many RUG lists are already running some number of Thought Scour/Predict. Mulliganing with RUG is miserable enough as it is, do you really want to open yourself up to the possibility even more with 4 temporal masteries?

What decks did you test these lists against? Or did you just goldfish with them?

[Suneloon]

I don't like that people think that everything from the internet has to be free... Whining about 3 dollars...lol...i give that as a tip to the guy who brings me lunch....

Playa

[Smmenen]

I have some complaints about your decklists:

UGW:
-You're playing 3 Jace, TMS but only 19 lands and not even 1 Life from the Loam or any Noble Hierarchs. Jace is a fantastic late-game bomb, but I do not think this mana base can support 1-2 Jace, much less 3.

In testing, I rarely had trouble reaching the mana to play Jace, provided I survived that long, even against Wasteland decks. With 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder it was enough land.

As I said, I even had games where I could *hardcast* Temporal Mastery.

-You drop Wasteland in favor of Basics to help stabilize the mana-base. This would fine, except that you're still running tempo cards like Daze and Stifle. Without Wasteland to back up these cards, they become incredibly weak outside of the first few turns, whereas other well-tuned tempo decks can leverage them for longer into the game.
-You also aren't comitting to one angle of attack with your counterspells, opting to go with a 2/2/2 split of the situational ones. I think this is a weaker, less consistent approach than just going for a 4/2 or 3/3 split of the ones that are useful most often in this deck.

My UGW list doesn't have Stifle.

RUG:
-You drop Nimble Mongoose in favor of Vexing Devil. Do you even play this format?

Nimble Mongoose was not fast enough or large enough to take advantage of Temporal Mastery. That's why I included Vexing Devil. There were too many games where I played Temporal Mastery and swung for 1.

-You mention that Snapcaster Mage may provide more tempo than Tarmogoyf. Hell no.

I said "may," and I meant situationally, specifically in terms of abusing Temporal Mastery. Snapcaster helps clear blockers on your Temporal Mastery turn by Bolting or otherwise removing the blocker. Goyf is obviously amazing. One of my favorite creatures ever. Which is why I even tried a RUG list. Goyf is the reason to play green.

UR:
-This is probably the best decklist you offered,

That's why I said both of the previous lists were flawed, and this was the best.

but if you are only utilizing TM to get extra attack steps for another 3-6 damage, wouldn't Thunderous Wrath just be the better miracle card? Seems like it'd be more consistent in getting in for damage, but even here it seems weak.

No. As I said, when you combine Delver, Guide, and Devil, you are really maximizing the value of Temporal Mastery. The additional turn then allows you to Snapcast and Bolt to clear any blocker. It's not just 3-6 damage. It's 3-6 damage, an additional land drop, an additional draw, and an additional opportunity to play threats or Snapcast + Bolt. Thunderous Wrath doesn't do all those things.

I honestly doubt you did much serious testing. I am willing to suspend my disbelief, but the lists you put forth do not seem well-tuned or ready to take on the current Legacy tier 1. I think the current RUG decks would eat all of them alive since they simply have a higher density of removal and counterspells. Remember, TM can be Spell Pierce'd and the miracle trigger can be Stifled, and many RUG lists are already running some number of Thought Scour/Predict.

What decks did you test these lists against? Or did you just goldfish with them?

I tested against a range of matchups, largely focusing on decks that had won recent SCG Opens and Maverick. I won't claim that I ran a full gauntlet, nor will I claim that these decks beat everything or had favorable matchups against everything. But the point isn't that these decks will be dominant, but that Temporal Mastery is broken because it creates alot of unfair and unfun games.

With each successive decklist I was moving towards a better Temporal mastery list, meaning a list designed better to abuse it. I don't offer these decklists as the finished product, but as the foundation for further testing, based upon the testing I've already done.

I believe that the UR version has enough density of countermagic and removal to go more than toe to toe with RUG, especially with the right draw. Temporal Mastery is a very natural fit into these decks, and at least as good as a Chain Lightning (which they already all run), provided you have a creature on the board.

Mulliganing with RUG is miserable enough as it is, do you really want to open yourself up to the possibility even more with 4 temporal masteries?

After testing a bit with RUG, I quickly moved to UR for the reasons that are rightly obvious to you. And, I can report that Temporal Mastery did not negatively impact a single mulligan decision I had to confront in testing.

[joemauer]

A creature that typically only does four damage sounds horrible in a tempo deck. Most tempo decks ride one or two creatures to victory. Vexing Devil cannot do this. I am going to mirror Wcm8 here. Do you even play Legacy?

[Smmenen]

A creature that typically only does four damage sounds horrible in a tempo deck. Most tempo decks ride one or two creatures to victory. Vexing Devil cannot do this. I am going to mirror Wcm8 here. Do you even play Legacy?

Your confusion stems from the fact that you think Vexing Devil is replacing a creature here. It's not. If my opponent takes 4, then it's better than Chain Lightning at their head. If they let it resolve, then they will be punished with Temporal Mastery, since I will have an additional attack -- and more damage -- than they thought they would be taking at that time.

The question is: how do you maximize use of Temporal Mastery: Delver and Guide and Goyf are obvious ways to do this, but Vexing Devil is another. I wouldn't play it over one of those creatures, but in addition to it. I don't have a giant sample size, but so far it's been surprisingly good.

[keys]

Chain Lightning at your opponent's face on turn one is a horrible play. Devil does one additional point of damage. It's still horrible.

How do threads like these not fall into the Lack of Content category in the rules?

[JDK]

Your confusion stems from the fact that you think Vexing Devil is replacing a creature here. It's not. If my opponent takes 4, then it's better than Chain Lightning at their head. If they let it resolve, then they will be punished with Temporal Mastery, since I will have an additional attack -- and more damage -- than they thought they would be taking at that time.

The question is: how do you maximize use of Temporal Mastery: Delver and Guide and Goyf are obvious ways to do this, but Vexing Devil is another. I wouldn't play it over one of those creatures, but in addition to it. I don't have a giant sample size, but so far it's been surprisingly good.

You know most people will take 4 when they cannot handle the Devil, so you will definitely NOT attack with him. If they can handle him, go figure. I won't charge you for that knowledge.

Don't get me wrong, 4 for R is definitely fine, but it works against your claims to "abuse" Temporal Mastery and is nowhere near a Mongoose in RUG.

@Thunderous Wrath
It only costs R and gets in for 5 or rid off a blocker. In addition it's also good, if you don't have creatures on the board, where Mastery would be nothing more than an Explore.

[Smmenen]

Chain Lightning at your opponent's face on turn one is a horrible play. Devil does one additional point of damage. It's still horrible.

That's why I use Goblin Guide and Delver for one drops. I explained that.

[Smmenen]

You know most people will take 4 when they cannot handle the Devil, so you will definitely NOT attack with him.

Don't get me wrong, 4 for R is definitely fine, but it works against your claims to "abuse" Temporal Mastery and is nowhere near a Mongoose.

@Thunderous Wrath
It only costs R and gets in for 5 or rid off a blocker. In addition it's also good, if you don't have creatures on the board, where Mastery would be nothing more than an Explore.

People are getting fixated on Devil. I'm not even saying he's that great or even optimal. Again, I never claimed that my decks were optimal, but that they are offered for the reader to have something to work with based upon the testing I've done so far.

Feel free to play Thunderous Wrath, but there is no way it's better than Temporal Mastery.

[KevinTrudeau]

Weren't you the guy criticizing Doomsday players' 'trash' lists because they weren't playing Laboratory Maniac like in Vintage?

[luckme10]

Read the excerpt. It was fine. Then I saw a 2.99 add cart. So, since the cost of the article seems to warrant much complaining in the magic community, I want to talk about the opportunity cost of purchasing a 1000 word article vs what you can do with $2.99:

-Goodwill, 99 cents store, lotto tickets.
- 10 packs of ramen noodles
-Make a collect call to a long lost relative. Who probably won't accept anymore of your phone calls.
-Purchase brine shrimp eggs. Put in cup. Have mini-aquarium.
-Purchase Ice block on rainy day. Go sliding down the fairway at your local golf course. Damages may cost a little more...

-What do they say on those pro bono infomercials? Vitamins are about 10 cents a day for developing nations?
-3 dollars is the daily living costs of least developed nations for two days. Based on the value of 1 1989 dollar, adjusted for inflation.
-It is also the daily living costs of a lesser developing nation for a day. Based on the value of 2 1989 dollars, adjusted for inflation.

For those of you that don't find the need to life cheaply, or donate time/money. Fear not! Now there are ways to let you contribute to the environment and public good! Please support your Benefit Corporations:
-Purchase 2 arrowhead spring waters. Now their bottles use 20% less plastic! Help support our landfills by purchasing more product.
-Buy a gallon of gas? Maybe? In select areas? This helps support Chevron's increasing educational sponsorship of environmental classes.
-Support Wal-Mart. There's many things you can buy there for less than 3 dollars. By making purchases at Wal-Mart, you'll help fuel their venture capital in countries in dire need of financement. Like Mexico.

With all the other decisions to make with the 3 dollars cover charge... I'm just so overwhelmed by the opportunity costs. Stephen, I'm sure you make some fine points in your article, and if someone would be so kind as to outline those points, I'd love to see them.

[Smmenen]

As I update any of the lists in the article based upon any further testing, I will have the EC folks update those lists in the article, and I will post any updates here as well(indicating card changes to each list). FYI.

[wcm8]

I never claimed that my decks were optimal,

"My decks here, or variants of them, will be winning SCG Legacy Opens very soon." -page 6

edit: to be fair, you do say 'or variants of them'.

[Smmenen]

"My decks here, or variants of them, will be winning SCG Legacy Opens very soon." -page 6

Yes: "Variants of them" being key.

Let me be clear: I believe that Temporal Mastery Delver decks will be appearing in SCG Legacy Open Top 8s very soon.

[Koby]

This thread is worth the comedy IMO.

[JDK]

People are getting fixated on Devil. I'm not even saying he's that great or even optimal. Again, I never claimed that my decks were optimal, but that they are offered for the reader to have something to work with based upon the testing I've done so far.

Keep in mind what you said earlier:

If they let it resolve, then they will be punished with Temporal Mastery, since I will have an additional attack -- and more damage -- than they thought they would be taking at that time.

If your argument for Temporal Mastery's "another attack phase!" involves Vexing Devil, you should take a moment to think about it. Vexing Devil isn't abusing Temporal Mastery in any way. There was a reason why I posted my previous thoughts quoting this statement of yours.

Feel free to play Thunderous Wrath, but there is no way it's better than Temporal Mastery.

I never said it is better in general. The point is, that it only costs one R and is much much much much much much much less situational.

[DragoFireheart]

What exactly does your UR decklist look like?

[Koby]

What exactly does your UR decklist look like?

Extrapolating from the discussion:

Goblin Guide
Vexing Devil
Delver of Secrets

Brainstorm
Ponder
Daze
Stifle
Force of Will
Spell Pierce

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt

Temporal Mastery
~18-19 lands

[Rekk]

seems about right....
so really his breakthrough legacy deck was shoving tm into already established decks..

oh and of course one list with both dazes, jace, and a low land count

[KobeBryan]

Extrapolating from the discussion:

Goblin Guide
Vexing Devil
Delver of Secrets

Brainstorm
Ponder
Daze
Stifle
Force of Will
Spell Pierce

Chain Lightning
Lightning Bolt

Temporal Mastery
~18-19 lands

I could have sworn that Reforge is THE card for UR delver...not temporal mastery.