Usually you board out all Intuitions when you have the slightest expectation that your opponent will board in Extractions. It would not be unreasonable to board them in because Extraction can be reasonably good but it just would not expect the card to hit something the intuitioned for as a 3 off. Also ... think of this ... you let Intuition resolve and they tutor for 3 different pacts.
I understand that strategy in most combo decks, but after playing with Hive Mind a few times, I don't feel that deck can afford to lose the card tutoring ability of Surgical Extraction. It doesn't have the search quality of other Intuition combo decks such as High Tide (12 cantrips, multiple draw effects, Merchant Scroll) or U/R Painter (cantrips + Tops), or the redundancy of Sneak Attack (in which all of the combo pieces achieve the same purpose, unlike Hive Mind where you might draw into 2 Emrakuls and 2 Pacts).Originally Posted by oRen
Surgical Extraction is awesome if you can mess up their Intuitions, but it's still reasonable (i.e. not completely dead) in other occasions if you can win a counter a semi-useful piece and remove all existing copies from the game. Contrast that with Smash to Smithereens, which is in fact useless if your opponent doesn't have a Grim Monolith and still costs two mana to be useful (and is not as gamebreaking as Surgical Extraction in the "good" cases).
As I said, I didn't see his boarding. If someone can post it, I would be thankful.
Playing dead cards just to Brainstorm them away isn't a good idea, as you have dead draws.
Again, he cannot deal with the Leyline, so taking out dead cards for inefficient, but damage dealing cards doesn't seem wrong. Of course FoW, PoP and Blasts should be boarded in though.
I assume they got the decklist of their opponent (SCG does this in the semi- and finale, right?), so boarding against Leyline seems legit.
I have been messing around with the following configuration in testing Thunderous Wrath and trying to maximize it, and I would certainly say that this build has been loads of fun at the very least:
//Creatures = 12
[4x] Delver of Secrets
[4x] Goblin Guide
[4x] Vexing Devil
//Burn Spells = 17
[4x] Thunderous Wrath
[4x] Lightning Bolt
[4x] Chain Lightning
[3x] Fireblast
[2x] Magma Jet
//Utility = 13
[4x] Daze
[4x] Brainstorm
[4x] Ponder
[1x] Preordain
//Lands = 18
[4x] Volcanic Island
[2x] Mountain
[1x] Island
[4x] Scalding Tarn
[2x] Wooded Foothills
[2x] Arid Mesa
[1x] Bloodstained Mire
[1x] Polluted Delta
[1x] Misty Rainforest
I also tried a version with Grim Lavamancer, but I found the tempo of this version to be more apt for a Miraculous Wrath.
The configuration looks crude, but the idea was to use the cantrip effects to do the usual filtering, and to also setup Thunderous Wrath whenever possible. Surprisingly, I've rarely encountered the scenarios where I expected Thunderous Wrath to be annoyingly dead, as the presence of Brainstorm in the deck was enough to smooth things out. I expect these scenarios to happen every so often, so it might really just be a matter of testing it some more.
Vexing Devil was also surprisingly effecting in supporting the game plan, though I would have to note that it's still an inferior Turn-1 play to Delver of Secrets or Goblin Guide.
I'd be interested to know if anyone else has had the chance to test something similar.
Cheers,
jares
What about See Beyond or Vendilion Clique as another way to get Wrath out of your hand? I think that would be more effective than Magma Jet and Preordain. Clique might be a little high on the curve, but it also offers a good deal of disruption, and currently your list looks weak to combo.
I'm glad that you noticed that the slots used by Preordain and Magma Jet are indeed the flex slots. Vendilion Clique looks good as a means of disruption, though I was thinking that a Thunderous Wrath in hand is almost as good as one in the bottom of the library (though the Fetches could help with this), not to mention that it took a Vendilion Clique trigger to get it there - seems like a lot of effort to get the card back in the library.
Honestly, I haven't had the chance to properly test the Magma Jets, so I really can't comment too much on that. I didn't really remember that See Beyond could help with the idea, but at first glance I would probably still choose Magma Jet because of its utility, and also because See Beyond seems to be more suited for a deck that thrives on card advantage. It's good to know that the option is there though.
I would also like to hear your opinion on Daze for this particular configuration. I've generally been happy with it, though it's still at the back of my mind that sooner or later I would get it as a top-deck at the wrong time.
I just noticed that I completely overlooked the possibility of using Price of Progress. I like that the majority of the deck requires one mana to play, though Price of Progress can easily slide into the slots occupied by Magma Jet.
Cheers,
jares
Daze is a beast, but I run it along with 1-2 Spell Pierce and 1-2 Price of Progress (no Magma Jets and Preordains and only 2-3 Wraths).
I often find myself fighting against Jitte and/or Batterskull, so additional counters are needed. I also tried 1-2 Fire // Ice, they seem quite decent and I would play them over Magma Jet anytime.
I've also been running [cards]Spell Pierce in the sideboard, but I haven't tried it in the main deck so far. Now that you mentioned it, would Spell Snare be worth considering? I've been thinking about Price of Progress, and have been reluctant to put it back because of the recoil that I get from it, though that might really just be a minor issue. Fire // Ice surely seems like something worth looking into, and it does add more flexibility to the deck's options.
What do your sideboards look like for these configurations?
Cheers,
jares
I am still working on the maindeck, so my sideboard is just a bunch of experimental cards like 2 Fire // Ice, 2 Sulfuric Vortex, another Price of Progress, more Spell Pierces and a Jitte (I am forcing this one into it, because my other decks are all combo and I really wanna play this card xD ).
Haha, same here. Mine is littered with Faerie Macabre, Smash to Smithereens, Spell Pierce, Vexing Shusher, and Sulfuric Vortex. But I agree - we'll probably have to get the main deck straightened-out first.
Cheers,
jares
Shusher seems nice, but I guess he's too slow. Smash and Gravehate (Surgical, Crypt or FMacabre, not sure though) will definitely make it into my sideboard (I am short on Smashes and most of my gravehate is in other decks).
I have mostly tested against Esper Stoneblade only (highly favorable - not that those dozen games mean anything), so I will keep my list under wip-status until I had the opportunity to play a fair amount of games against other Tier 1 and 2 decks.
It's funny because I actually ported that sideboard from the Burn list that I play, therefore the Vexing Shushers.
I have had a game or two where the Vexing Shushers did win me the game, though, so I can really scoff at its inclusion so far. Other options include Submerge, which looks good against a fair share of the current decks to beat.
Cheers,
jares
Don't flame me please, but I've been fiddling with Kiln Fiend for a bit. I know it's a bad card, but it's so powerful that I keep wondering that there might be a way to make it work.
I've tried playing builds with Gitaxian Probe, Fire/Ice, Fireblast and even Vapor Snag (this one is bad) just to have some free spells and ways to remove blockers to connect with the Fiend. Once you connect for 7/10 on turn 3 it's pretty much game over. I've even connected for lethal on turn 3 with cantrip, Probe, Bolt and Fireblast.
He is not even that much of a bad topdeck, because even a single cantrip can represent up to 7 or 10 damage if you opponent doesn't have blocker/removal.
He is also good against combo, because he can dish out huge amounts of damage when they don't have any disruption. Stuff like Turn 3 Bolt, into Brainstorm and then double Daze your own Brainstorm.
The problem is, you are focusing so much spells on pumping Kiln Fiend while being vulnerable to a single removal spell.
So is every other creature. Don't run jank like Vapor Snag and just test him. He's amazing for those kinds of decks.
If they use removal on him, then that is less removal for Delver. Not a huge issue honestly.
Yeah, because you have to play crap like Probe and stuff to pump your Goblin Guide...
It's a 2-Drop which needs "setup", is completely vulnerable and doesn't have evasion.
Compare that to every other creature in UR Delver.
Please Drago, refrain from posting, if you don't think about your arguments or lack the reading skills to understand a WHOLE sentence.
I would say it requires as much of a setup as Delver. Sometimes your Delver just doesn't flip naturally, and you need to "waste" a Brainstorm to fix that.
The Fiend actually rewards you for doing what you would already do, that is, play instants and sorceries.
He is just as vulnerable as every other creature you play. But yeah, he lacks evasion.
One other card I tested was Apostile's Blessing. I does 3 things: allows to evade blockers, counters removal and allow you to block with the Fiend killing a X/4 creature while the Fiend still lives.
You need at least one instant or sorcery if you want to attack, while Delver often naturally flips. One Brainstorm for a permanent 3 power flyer? As a 1-Drop? Same setup? Not close.
You rarely play instants in your main phase. A decent amount is countermagic or things you don't want to slam on the table if you don't need to.
Has anyone looked at the four top 32s from SCG Providence?
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8252
I see a few things going on. First is that this archetype is clearly up for interpretation (this thread sure is a testament to that) and that it's a popular choice for budget players because of how 'relatively' cheap it is to build. I'm particularly interested in hearing from players that attended this event (if there were any) and can attest to the success of Thunderous Wrath.
You got me there. But you can't stop me from playing Fiend at the local store just for kicks! Anyway, my Snapcasters arrived in the mail...
We can go back to discussing real cards now.
What makes me think a bit, is how the number of Price to Progress differ. Seen 0/2/3/4 in various lists. What's up with that? I know UWb can play on all basics, but some decks simply don't have that choice. Especially RUG... LOL.
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