Chalice Blue

[dillonkbase]

Got kicked out of the Mud Stompy thread for whatever reason... This deck is just another spin on abusing those explosive mechanics in a less uncontrolled way.
I really wanted to consistently control the tempo of games in permanent based fashion.

New phyrexia has provided the critical mass of "blue" artifacts to make FOW playable and copying lodestone golem with metamorph can be great.

Esperzoa can return tanglewires or monoliths for profit. So here's the list, I would love to get peoples thoughts.

4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 transmute artifact
4 esperzoa
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 force of will
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 lodestone golem
1 zuran orb
2 wurmcoil engine
1 chrome mox
4 Grim Monolith
2 crucible of worlds
2 mox diamond
1 Academy Ruins
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
5 island
1 seat of the synod
1 Inkmoth Nexus
SB
4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obidience
4 cursed totem
3 trinisphere


Is it Faerie Stompy, but more staxxish? Double blue spells with Sol lands? Spellskite?

Spellskite is worse than chalice, they both stop swords and bolts(which kill your golems) Esperzoa is akin to Sea Drake, but instead of cutely not bouncing 2 land, you get to reset the counters on your tanglewire or untap a grim monolith.

With ten sources for blue I haven't had an issue finding the mana yet, usually you pitch something to FOW along the way anyway. However, transmute and jace are both pretty good. Trashing a tapped monolith or spent tanglewire is pretty good.

Back to Basics?

I am of the opinion that without metalworker and thran dynamo you cannot afford back to basics, mostly because it makes your bad matchups worse when you can not take advantage of casting new bombs every turn. This deck is possible because it abuses sol lands, so making the sol lands worse is bad.(If you want to run back to basics, I suggest more lands, more diamonds, and more metalworker)

However I have been thinking about trying winter orb, a lock piece that can come down turn one, interacts well with tangle wire, and let take advantage of your soul lands. I just cannot test everything at once so... it hasn't happened yet.

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Now, I did play this deck again last night at my LGS and went 3-1. I beat a BW stoneforge deck with edicts and enlightened tutor package. (I won on the back on wire and chalice for 1)

Beat TES, chalice, and FOW were rockstars.

and I beat Burn

All three matches went to 3 games, the draws can still be a little inconsistent.

I also lost to RUG, the same guy I lost to last week, in two games after mulling to 4 game one, and not finding a land after daze and wasteland ruined my fun. This match is frustration because it seems good on paper, I just haven't been able to capitalize on it yet (much to the suprise of my opponent).

Heres what I ran I, open to advice,

4 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 transmute artifact
4 esperzoa
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
4 force of will
4 chalice of the void
4 tangle wire
4 lodestone golem
1 cursed totem
2 wurmcoil engine
1 chrome mox
4 Grim Monolith
2 crucible of worlds
2 mox diamond
4 ancient tomb
4 city of traitors
4 wasteland
6 island
1 seat of the synod
1 crystal vein

SB
4 leyline of the void
1 helm of obidience
3 cursed totem
1 trinisphere
1 zuran orb
3 submerge
1 smokestack
1 sundial of the infinite

[(nameless one)]

The idea didn't get kicked out of the MUD thread. In just too busy to test the list.

As for blue splash, you can protect your pieces with both Chalice and Spellskite whic is awesome.

As for Esperzoa, while its good with Grim Monolith, I don't think the interaction works with Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire's 'At the beginning of upkeep' triggers still resolves even if you return it back to your hand with Esperzoa. On the other hand, you can play tricks with Master Transmuter. It also does the same thing with Grim Monolith. Worse case scenario if you can't protect your MTransmuter, once active it can protect itself. It can also do Sundering Titan/Spine of Ish Sah tricks. You can return a target back to your hand and have that same artifact enter the field.

I've tried this in Modern before but the lack of Sol-lands in that format didn't help the deck and you don't really get an advantage with Posts (back then) and UrzaTron lands.

Also, with Master Transmuter, you can abuse Winter (or Static) Orb by having the Orb on your opponent's turn while having it back to your hand on yours.

[dillonkbase]

The idea didn't get kicked out of the MUD thread. In just too busy to test the list.

Too busy? there have been no posts since "This message has been deleted" but I'll let that just be water under the bridge.

As for Esperzoa, while its good with Grim Monolith, I don't think the interaction works with Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire's 'At the beginning of upkeep' triggers still resolves even if you return it back to your hand with Esperzoa. On the other hand, you can play tricks with Master Transmuter.

This depends on your definition of works, to me I am fine tapping down a few artifacts to reset the wire to 4, normally when it gets to two.

Also, with Master Transmuter, you can abuse Winter (or Static) Orb by having the Orb on your opponent's turn while having it back to your hand on yours.

True, and I haven't done the testing with orb, but I think just having sol lands is a big enough advantage here.

Fundamentally I am trying to avoid enabler creatures, Welder, Metal Worker, and Transmuter all leave much to be desired when it come to keeping tempo.

[Vacrix]

Perhaps you should try running Pithing Needle. It seems like a pretty good card to bounce with Esperzoa when you need to change the name.

Also, another thing to consider is something like Ensnaring Bridge. Granted, you can't attack with stuff like Esperzoa/Lodestone while Bridge is in play, but you can bounce it during your upkeep, swing and then replay it in the second main phased to avoid that problem; a one-sided, psuedo-moat seems good, especially when you can just win with Jace instead of with the combat phase if you lose your Esperzoa to a removal spell. Bridge is fantastic against aggro decks if you can keep your hand low enough, especially if they get greedy with lords. It would be a good method for crowd control too seeing that you don't play any sweepers. Its also good against decks like Reanimator and SnT.

[RJM]

Just a quick 2 cents from me, but I've found that the deck smooths itself out a lot better running something like Thirst for Knowledge in some number. Also ups the blue count for FoW.

[(nameless one)]

Too busy? there have been no posts since "This message has been deleted" but I'll let that just be water under the bridge.

Ya. Sorry about that. Honestly, today is one of those few days that I can actually playtest (having access to Cockatrice and free time) and for some bad luck reason, Cockatice's servers are god forsaken slow.

This depends on your definition of works, to me I am fine tapping down a few artifacts to reset the wire to 4, normally when it gets to two.

I see. I thought you wanted to make Tangle Wire one-sided.

True, and I haven't done the testing with orb, but I think just having sol lands is a big enough advantage here.

.

Keep in mind that the deck has a high mana curve. So every Sol-land counts. Though I understand the circumstances of Winter Orb on the late game.

Fundamentally I am trying to avoid enabler creatures, Welder, Metal Worker, and Transmuter all leave much to be desired when it come to keeping tempo.

Kinda like the Mono-brown (Stompy) MUD. I would suggest you consider Cursed Totem especially with Maverick all over the place. You can even try Damping Matrix since it doesn't affect mana abilities while it affects a lot of enablers in the format.

Perhaps you should try running Pithing Needle. It seems like a pretty good card to bounce with Esperzoa when you need to change the name.

You're better off with Phyrexian Revoker since Chalice at one plays huge on this deck.

Also, another thing to consider is something like Ensnaring Bridge. Granted, you can't attack with stuff like Esperzoa/Lodestone while Bridge is in play, but you can bounce it during your upkeep, swing and then replay it in the second main phased to avoid that problem; a one-sided, psuedo-moat seems good, especially when you can just win with Jace instead of with the combat phase if you lose your Esperzoa to a removal spell. Bridge is fantastic against aggro decks if you can keep your hand low enough, especially if they get greedy with lords. It would be a good method for crowd control too seeing that you don't play any sweepers. Its also good against decks like Reanimator and SnT.

The thing is his creatures will outclass most of creatures he will face. Against aggro, it shouldn't be a problem. Besides, Tangle Wire is already there to do that job. If Ensnaring Bridge is pseudo-Moat, Tangle Wire is pseudo-Time Walk.

Just a quick 2 cents from me, but I've found that the deck smooths itself out a lot better running something like Thirst for Knowledge in some number. Also ups the blue count for FoW.

This or Thoughtcast.

Back to the list:

Is Jace that significant? Also, how's Transmute Artifact for you? I know the trick with the Grim Monolith to Wurmcoil and all but with only 8 blue sources, isn't getting double blue a mission?

[Vacrix]

Esperzoa's and Lodestones don't outclass most creatures; they have 3 toughness. Delver, Goose.. other creatures will trade well with his, especially in the tempo matchup. Wurmcoil engine is the biggest dude. Also, you should really consider Steel Hellkite in Wurm Coil's place IMO. The upside to blowing up the opponent's permanents is too huge to overlook. Its 6 mana for a evasion with a EE on a stick that can also pump himself to speed up your clock by a full turn or more sometimes (though its far more effective in that respect with a Metalworker). Also, its not like this deck can effectively deal with resolved permanents in any other way without spot removal, sweepers, and a grand total countersuite of 4 FoW.

Tangle Wire does some cool stuff but its not a permanent solution against a deck with countermagic because you have to keep replaying it. What happens when they just counter your Tangle Wire, untap and drop Emrakul off Show and Tell or Sneak attack? Considering that this deck plays a grand total of 0 sweepers, and a soft lock combo that requires that you replay part of it and hold onto a creature with 3 toughness... is a lot to ask for a legacy control deck.

To be honest, this deck is Faerie Stompy that runs some bad cards instead of the traditional ones. You need to go for a more controllish style, or get more aggressive, but the middle ground is just doing both things poorly. I say go for more Jace's and Ensnaring Bridges, cut Esperzoa and go for a purely countersuite + stax pieces build because Jace as a win con supports that strategy quite well. Run a countersuite, like Counterspell, FoW, and perhaps Remand. Jace is honestly the best thing to ever happen to blue stax. He can throw away stuff you don't want with Brainstorm, add to your lock pieces to further solidify your board state whilst also ticking up til the ultimate, can bounce creatures... I don't think 2 copies is enough.

Also.. Vanishment is something to consider. Unlike Submerge, it isn't limited to creatures and the whole Island/Forest condition (which can allude you seeing as you only play 6 Islands).



Something to keep in mind... Chalice of the Void isn't nearly as good as it used to be in the past against aggro decks. Now that Cavern of Souls has hit countermagic hard in the balls, you'll be sure that your previously fantastic play of Sol-land/Land+Mox into Chalice @ 1 gets hosed by Cavern into Lackey... into shenanigans. Food for thought.

[dillonkbase]

Esperzoa's and Lodestones don't outclass most creatures; they have 3 toughness. Delver, Goose.. other creatures will trade well with his, especially in the tempo matchup. Wurmcoil engine is the biggest dude. Also, you should really consider Steel Hellkite in Wurm Coil's place IMO. The upside to blowing up the opponent's permanents is too huge to overlook. Its 6 mana for a evasion with a EE on a stick that can also pump himself to speed up your clock by a full turn or more sometimes (though its far more effective in that respect with a Metalworker). Also, its not like this deck can effectively deal with resolved permanents in any other way without spot removal, sweepers, and a grand total countersuite of 4 FoW.

Some great feedback here, thanks. As for hellkite vs wurmcoil, the damage from tomb is significant and wurmcoil is great at covering that weakness. Furthermore, in the age of liliana the persistent threat posed by the tokens is meaningful. However, their is a weakness in this deck to permanent threats and I could see hellkite helping there.

Tangle Wire does some cool stuff but its not a permanent solution against a deck with countermagic because you have to keep replaying it. What happens when they just counter your Tangle Wire, untap and drop Emrakul off Show and Tell or Sneak attack?

The point of the deck is that all the threats are big enough clocks to make the time from wire relevant. You don't always need to bounce wire and recast it.

To be honest, this deck is Faerie Stompy that runs some bad cards instead of the traditional ones. You need to go for a more controllish style, or get more aggressive, but the middle ground is just doing both things poorly.

Midrange decks have a place, my argument is that this is the tempo version of stax. There are better control decks, but they cannot win a 3 game match in 50 minutes.

I say go for more Jace's and Ensnaring Bridges, cut Esperzoa and go for a purely countersuite + stax pieces build because Jace as a win con supports that strategy quite well. Run a countersuite, like Counterspell, FoW, and perhaps Remand. Jace is honestly the best thing to ever happen to blue stax. He can throw away stuff you don't want with Brainstorm, add to your lock pieces to further solidify your board state whilst also ticking up til the ultimate, can bounce creatures... I don't think 2 copies is enough.

Jace is very good no doubt.

Also.. Vanishment is something to consider. Unlike Submerge, it isn't limited to creatures and the whole Island/Forest condition (which can allude you seeing as you only play 6 Islands).

Yeah, I hear you, I am thinking about more islands, winter orb, more mox diamond, and daze---->just not sure how I want to get their without losing to much aggro.

Something to keep in mind... Chalice of the Void isn't nearly as good as it used to be in the past against aggro decks. Now that Cavern of Souls has hit countermagic hard in the balls, you'll be sure that your previously fantastic play of Sol-land/Land+Mox into Chalice @ 1 gets hosed by Cavern into Lackey... into shenanigans. Food for thought.

This just has not proved true, lackey are not swarming my meta and the merfolk a asleep in the sea.

One last work on the 3 toughness of the creature, it has been a factor, but if you land the chalice they seem to do fine, and I think it would be hard to find more resilient creatures for the job. Sea drake has the same problem, not to mention transmuter, welder an worker.

[dillonkbase]

Is Jace that significant? Also, how's Transmute Artifact for you? I know the trick with the Grim Monolith to Wurmcoil and all but with only 8 blue sources, isn't getting double blue a mission?

Jace and Transmute fill the same slot as late game finishers pitchable to fow early on. I did lose a game to the double blue requirement in the tourney the other day, but the mana base is one of the many works in process.

Honestly the deck feels like it is a card away from being great. If I could play 8 lodestones over the esperzoa and 8 ancient tombs instead of city and vein, the deck would be outrageous. However, I do think that there is some untapped potential left in this cardpool, and that if this archetype (MUD in general) receives more effort from people who have the time to playtest, it can move up a tier or two.

[Jabari]

It seems like you do play 8 Lodestones in a sense, with the 4 Phyrexian Metamorphs - this of course contingent upon 1 sticking.

[dillonkbase]

It seems like you do play 8 Lodestones in a sense, with the 4 Phyrexian Metamorphs - this of course contingent upon 1 sticking.

When a metamoph copies a lodestone, you win.

[Vacrix]

This just got spoiled on MTGS, thought it was worth mentioning:

UB artifact creature
Deathtouch, flying
When ETB, draw a card. 1/1


It combos rather nicely with Esperzoa to draw you cards, trades with just about anything, and is reasonably playable on its own. Also, it would be decent with Academy Ruins as you can trade with your opponents creatures and continue to draw cards without losing your draw to Academy Ruins. Academy Ruins also combos nicely to stall out the game with Tangle Wire. It can also return artifact creatures that get killed, which is nice considering both Lodestone and Esperzoa have 3 toughness.

Another thing I stumbled upon was Precursor Golem. It produces 9 power for your side, and with Chalice @ 1, you can cut them off from Bolts/Chains anyway. Its also a house with Esperzoa, giving you 2 3/3 Golems per turn. At 5 mana, you might as well just go up to 6 for Wurmcoil or Hellkite... then again maybe he has an application against certain decks.

[Koby]

I think you might want to check out some of the decks we worked on in the Deep Blue thread.

It's essentially along the same lines.