I've been toying around with the red splash, and there are a few things that I've learned pretty quickly...
Huntmaster is great. Even without flipping him more than just once to the other side, he does a lot in pretty much every match-up - he gains two life, makes a token, deals some burn, removes a threat, and swings for four with trample. If you can get out two SDT it's also really, really easy to flip him back to normal and gain more life and tokens.
Valakut is good. However, Scapeshift is bad IMO, and Burning Wish always feels a bit too slow. Instead of going even that far into the combo, I simply run 2 Valakut and Primeval Titan as my huge finisher. Assuming I have 4 Mountains in play and GSZ for Titan fetching 2 Valakut, he can swing and grab 2 more Mountains for 18 damage the turn after. Much, much better than the finishing on Sun Titan or Grave Titan. Sigarda's the only thing that comes close, and only then because it's impossible to get rid of her.
I'd suggest a more or less normal list, something kind of like this...
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Innocent Blood
1 Terminate
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
3 Forest
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
The game plan here is to stall out with Huntmaster tokens and lifegain, and then win instantly off the back of Primeval Titan -> 2 Valakut -> 18 damage. I'd almost consider going up to a fourth Huntmaster here, but I would really have to do more testing with it both ways.
Also, the spell suite could use some work. Not sure on the last three cards in that section, or Wickerbough Elder, to be honest.
And, as an aside, red splash means we can run Burning Tree-Shaman in the sideboard to absolutely stomp control decks. This makes me very happy.
3 GSZ seemed okay. I might add in the 4th in place of the Nightmare -- not sure yet. The problem with having the full 4 is that I don't have dudes at each CMC to really take advantage of it. But maybe I'll change that, too...we'll see.
Scapeshift/Valakut is actually the sickness. With Natural Order, you're entirely relying on your NO duder to get there, in a world of Phantasmal Image/Metamorph, Perish (which people will already be bringing in), Ensnaring Bridge, Moat, etc etc. Valakut just straight kills them, while alternatively also sometimes acting as a Wrath when you need it to. Additionally, although clogging up the manabase with all of the red duals is annoying, just having Valakut in the deck can enable some random wins, because if you get into a topdeck war, every mountain you draw is actually business, while your opponent is still stalled out.
Broodmate was derpy. When I got it out it was fine, but if I'm being honest, most of the time I just dropped Titan. I still like the Zwillingsbrute-Drache, don't get me wrong, but it's something that I could see eventually changing if the right card comes along. Valakut/Scapeshift and Huntmaster -are- the reasons to play the red version, straight up. Other things like REB, Burning Wish, etc are nice, but those two engines are crucial to the deck.
Based on an idea Qweerios had, I've been trying a 2/2 bloodghast/diabolic intent split in a standard GB list. I have to say it's not that bad. It's still a dog to combo but is a wee bit faster, and with all of our land-fetching, it makes a 2/1 a MUST-STP for opponents.
Also with the added sac outlets I've included 2x percy as a finisher.
Here is my recent list with matchups for the most popular decks and SB plans. It focusses on beating RUG Delver and Maverick while going equal against Stoneblade and at least giving a fighting chance against Combo decks. A few things that I want to note in general:
Sensei's Divining Top: People don't play enough Tops. Imo 4 is the right choice and 2 or 3 is wrong. I want a Top every game because the cards do completely different things (Discard, Removal, Acceleration and Haymakers)
Removal: People don't play enough of that either. For the single creature removal you need it to keep up with the most popular deck RUG and thus it has to be cheap. 4 Swords to Plowshares should be mandatory in GBw and for lists without White I would suggest 4 Innocent Blood. Also despite everything Deed is imo still a 3- or 4-of. But I could see why people want to play less.
// Lands
1 [B] Badlands
2 [B] Bayou
3 [B] Forest
4 [FUT] Grove of the Burnwillows
1 [B] Mountain
1 [US] Phyrexian Tower
2 [B] Swamp
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
2 [FD] Eternal Witness
2 [DKA] Huntmaster of the Fells
4 [WL] Veteran Explorer
1 [ALA] Broodmate Dragon
1 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
1 [EVE] Wickerbough Elder
1 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [MBS] Thrun, the Last Troll
// Spells
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
3 [ZEN] Punishing Fire
4 [AP] Pernicious Deed
3 [OD] Innocent Blood
2 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
1 [M12] Garruk, Primal Hunter
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Duress
SB: 1 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [TE] Diabolic Edict
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [B] Red Elemental Blast
vs. Maverick
With 4 Deeds, 4 Tops to find them and additional Removal you should be able to take game 1 most of the time. Post board not much changes. You only get 2 solid Plagues but they don't get much useful stuff either.
Side:
- 1 Ooze
- 1 Huntmaster
+ 2 Engineered Plague (usually name Human; it hits most importantly Mother of Runes but also Noble Hierach and Thalia; also acts as emergency removal for Aven Mindcensor which is their best card vs. Nic Fit)
vs. RUG Delver
Innocent Blood shines in this matchup. They are very light on creatures so if you can Fire a Delver and Blood a Mongoose they might already be out. Stabilzing against Goyf is not that hard though it might get you from time to time. Post board you just go overboard on Removal and if you have Mana you can usually kill everything they have. If you are absolutely positive that they don't play Sulfuric Vortex you can side out Wickerbough Elder but against an unknown opponent I would keep the Elder in because Vortex is their biggest possible threat post board.
- 2 Cabal Therapy
- 1 P. Fire
- 1 Thrun
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 1 Garruk
+ 3 Red Blasts
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
+ 1 Kitchen Finks
vs. Stoneblade
Game 1 you have to play an awkward control game but it can work. Primeval Titan, Thrun and P. Fire/Grove are your main cards and you have to hope to get there with them. Titan will get Sworded but the 2 Groves should give you some reach. Explorer is often not desirable in this matchup, it just accelerates them into Jace.
Game 2+3 get better because you side out dead cards. They have Surgicals now for P. Fire and Perishes but unlike you they will have to side out real cards so that is okay. It will be an attrition war so expect to win with something awkward like Witness or Wolf token beatdown. Also if they don't MD it they bring the GB Sword.
- 3 Veteran Explorer (keep 1 in for emergencies but usually you want to get your lands into play with normal land drops)
- 4 Innocent Blood
- 1 Punishing Fire (play around Surgical/Extirpate if you can by keeping up one Grove to respond; it will likely get Surgicaled if you are forced to play it early and you will usually have enough time to find a Fire in this matchup anyway so 3 are enough)
- 1 Scavenging Ooze (they will just Sword it and if they are bad and leave Spell Snare in which happens quite frequently against lower level opponents don't give them value)
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Engineered Plague (only vs. the Spirits version of course)
+ 2 Duress
+ 1 Extirpate (a bad card but useful for the very late game against Academy Ruins or in response to a Snapcaster)
vs. Sneak and Show
Game 1 was already disastrous and them getting fucking Griselbrand made things even worse. Game 2 gets better but it is still not a matchup you want to face. You get a lot of stuff to put up a fight and steal a few matches but there is nothing insane like Yard removal vs. Dredge.
- 4 Punishing Fire
- 4 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Broodmate Dragon
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 1 Thrun
- 1 Grove of the Burnwillows
+ 4 Red Blasts
+ 3 Duress
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 1 Extirpate
+ 2 Diabolic Edict
vs. Dredge
You are pretty even against Dredge already in game 1. Explorer + Ooze or Deed is a solid win plan. P. Fire offers some board control and a way to instantly exile Bridges. Game 2 gets obviously even better.
- 2/4 Innocent Blood (keep 2 in on the draw)
- 2/4 Cabal Therapy (keep 2 in on the play, name Putrid Imp or Lion's Eye Diamond turn 1 if you draw it)
+ 1 Extirpate
+ 2 Surgical
+ 1 Kitchen Finks
+ 2 Engineered Plague
Last edited by Tao; 05-23-2012 at 03:57 PM. Reason: updated list
Tao,
I'll definitely try out your list. May I inquire about the absence of Liliana and Maelstrom pulse?
modify it slightly:
-1 top
-1 deed
-1 punishing
+2 lilli
+1 maelstrom pulse
or vice versa
you could also do -1 innocent blood
+1 maelstrom pulse
actually I am not a fan of this list but with these modification I could see me playing this list.
maybe ;-)
- Pulse is a bit too slow against Delver for a removal spell. It is not as nessecary as in nonred lists against Planeswalkers because you have Punishing Fire to deal with Jace. Elspeth is rarely seen these days but she is still managable with Punishing Fire (though it can get close). And for everything else Deed + Wickerbough have to be enough.
- Liliana is very close to making the list. But like Pulse she is too slow against RUG Delver. Getting BB Mana can be complicated sometimes. If you'd add her it would be for removal (Deed, Fire, Innocent Blood) but I prefer those cards as 4-ofs because they are needed in some matchups. I tried with 3 Deed but it gets uncomfortable against Maverick in G1 because the odds of having Deed get significantly lower.
If you want to add Lilianas I would suggest to add them for a Fire and an Innocent Blood.
I've still yet to see this deck win a game against anything without resolving Pernicious Deed. It's to the point that I would run 4x Deed, and 1x Diabolic Intent as basically the 5th copy--or, if I am in white, I'd run 1x Enlightened Tutor. The rest of the deck just durdles too hard. Huntsmaster is a move in the right direction, although I still think splashing white and exchanging all the terrible GSZ targets for KotRs is better. Liliana should be in the maindeck in multiples, as she's one of your few ways to land a real threat, and she also gives you real game against combo. Not to mention the person with the Liliana is going to win every mirror.
Oh, for the record, the correct card to name with Cabal Therapy against UW is Elspeth, seeing as you're almost zero to beat her.
- You can win without Deed very well by either going over the top of what the opponent does or outvalueing him with one of the engines.
- KotR is maybe ok as a 1-off. You won't win races with him, you don't have any lower costed creatures to tank Swords and compared to Maverick it loses value by not being able to mana screw the opponent with Wasteland.
- Huntmaster is not a step in the right direction, it is just an upgraded version of Finks.
- Enlightened Tutor MD is a bad choice
- Liliana is not winning the mirror. She is good in the mirror, not more. The edict effect is not spectacular and the discard is symmetrical. Before she goes ultimate the opponent will most likely have found a Pulse.
- naming Elspeth first against UW is stupid, it is either Brainstorm or something he tutored with Stoneforge Mystic
Cool list Tao, I will definitely try it out.
Why is there no Dryad Arbor? Could you now think of playing only 3 GSZ?
Dryad Arbor doesn't actually do anything for the deck. There's cutesy little tricks to do with it, but far and away I've found the card to be significantly burdensome. If you fetch it early people can kill it, if you fetch it late they often have a wasteland just sitting there because the card doesn't do much against us anyways.Originally Posted by Alexeezay
I rarely found it to contribute anything meaningful to the deck. One time I fetched it to flashback a therapy and that's about it, in the opening hand it's almost strictly the worst thing to see.
Tried Tao's list online last night. -1 deed -1 top for +2 lili
I feel the fires really seal the deal against delver and stoneblade.
I definitely missed the dryad, especially when I had 2 therapies in the yard and no creatures (although perhaps the 4th top would've helped) and several fetch lands.
Without targeted removal (pulse) I did feel vulnerable to needle set on deed. I don't feel comfortable with just one answer to that in the 75 (elder) that costs 5cc
Also I totally punted against death & taxes forgetting what I had therapied for a few turns earlier.
Other than that I'm very excited about going into red due to the prevalence of blue-based combo.
I think you should make a more conscious effort to utilize the card.
It's not about "cutesy little tricks" in this deck. It's about using any available avenue to try and win.
Dryad can:
Emergency block
Accelerate through GSZ
Emergency sac for therapy
Tap for G, and then get sac'd to a tower for BB
Save your win condition from an edict effect.
gain a life from ooze
I don't feel any of those things are "cutesy." The only real drawback is summoning sickness
Maybe I could try it in my list again, my largest issue was I was running it in a straight G/B list with Primeval Titan, which involves Treetop Villages, and at the time I was running Volrath's and a Tower, so of my land I'm looking at: 2x Villages, 1x Arbor, 1x Tower, and 1x Stronghold, as all being useless ways to start the game off, so all it did was increase my chance of not being able to do anything on turn 1.
Accelerating with GSZ always felt like the wrong choice, almost unanimously--I would much rather wait for GSZ'ing an ooze or something more important, I didn't mind it if I found another GSZ, but still that felt frustrating. Also, the sheer amount of times it just about insta-dies to everything was annoying as well.
Having that many lands that don't do anything immediately does suck, and with the villages and primetime, I don't blame you for cutting the arbor.
Specifically referring to Tao's fire/red splash, and given there are so many duals (groves) already I think that arbor may be usable.
For the list I think -1 Punishing Fire + 1 Liliana of the Veil is probably a good idea. Not sure what to cut for a second Liliana yet.
Summoning sickness isn't so bad, but dying to Removal and Deed is very bad for a land in a deck that avoids giving them other targets for their Removal. That causes the main drawback: Dryad Arbor would have to be in a spell slot because if it replaces a land it would die too often and leave you mana screwed. I don't think it would be bad to run it but that is the reason why I prefer a fourth copy of a key card over it. I like the things it does (especially the Therapy flashback), but I think a fourth (Deed, GSZ, Top) does more for the deck.
For a while I had 1 Vithian Renegades in the Sideboard to side in against Stoneforge decks and Maverick. That should probably come back in. I really like what Plague does, though, so it probably would have to be for a Red Blast.
Hi,
I went 5-2 in 2nd Big Legacy (16th place) at Bazaar of Moxen with my friend's build:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Acidic Slime
2 Grave Titan
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Shriekmaw
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lilliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reccuring Nightmare
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Bayou
4 Forest
4 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB:
3 Duress
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Extirpare
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Damnation
2 Snuff Out
Record:
Lands.deck 2-0
RUG Tempo 2-0
BGW Nic Fit 0-1 - I totally misplayed this one:(
RUG Tempo 2-0
Sneak & Show 0-2
UBr ANT 2-0
RUG Tempo 2-0
Acidic Slime won me games against Lands.deck destroing Glacial Chasm nad is my favourite utility creature here:) Snuff Outs were usefull against RUGs killing early Delvers.
Playing Tao's list online last night, came across a weird version of the deck. It was GUb with intuitions, brainstorms, jace, palinchron, recurring nightmare, kokusho, therapy, explorer, eternal witness, and phantasmal image
I totally punted.
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Dryad Arbor (this should be another land i think)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sun Titan
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Wall of Blossoms (should be something else probably)
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Darkblast
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Divining Top
____________________________________
This is my list so far. I do not agree with the needing 3-4 sensei's divining top. I'm not always happy to see one and it durdles quite a lot. ATM i feel that i never ramp up with Dryad Arbor. So it is usually a useless card. However it's a creature for both Recurring Nightmare and Cabal therapy so i'm not sure. I've added Gaddock Teeg (this helps our bad matchups so much! As a friend of mine said; if you want to increase a number of matchups, this is the card that increases the most matchups). And it's only a one of. Qasali took wickerbough elder's place, i'm not sure it's correct, but more testing will show, it's cheaper, but doesn't stick around. Sigarda is the real deal. Scavenging Ooze nr 2 is really good against some decks. I was considering Ulwenwald Tracker, however without all the big badass knights and mother of runes, it just isn't good enough and has been turned into a Master of The Wild Hunt.
Darkblast is a good answer to elves, maverick and delvers early. I'm not sure if it should be a the 4th sword but i'm testing it out :). Maelstrom Pulse gives me an out to Cursed Totem + Ensnaring Bridge + Pithing Needle. Aka Lands or counterbalance.dec.
Recurring Nightmare has been amazing, and as long as i'm playing Sun titan i assume i'll be playing it, i could also see playing it with huntmaster but who knows.
So far i've only played against Lands, Rug delver (without stifle) and some combo decks. Rug Delver without stifle seems like a toss up and lands seems pretty hard to loose.
What do you guys think about a singleton of Vexing Shusher?
Could it improve our matchup against UW Stoneblade (and maybe RUG) or is it just bad?
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