[Deck] Spanish Inquisition (B/x Storm Combo)

[DerFern]

No way would I change 3 Tendrils 1 belcher 1 pif 1 muse 2 MM.
I love the setup and it feels so consistent. I think it's absolutely incorrect to play less than 2 tendrils, but really I think 3 is the best number. One of the biggest strengths of the deck is easily getting natural draws of tendrils from your draw fours. That basically never happens if you play only one and not often with two. I win all the time without ever casting a tutor and it's fantastic.

I agree about 4 carpets. I am planning on cutting my MM in the board for the fourth one.

Been playing control for a few months now, but in the end Johnny is still Johnny...
Since I´m heading towards Bazaar of Moxen this weekend and I´m still not sure what to play, PSI is a valid option again.
kusumoto, I really love your list! Basically, I´ve been playing something very similar (except for your SB) but only had acces to 2 ToA, but had 3 MM. I often got stuck with 10mana, storm 20 and no way to get a winning option, so adding a third Tendrils has to be the right way.
The only slot in question for me is Wild Cantor. Right now I have a Tinder Wall in there, but the only reason for this is Past in Flames... not sure, yet :-/
I think it is the right way to cut Xantid Swarm but in the end, if you´re heading for a biiiig tournament, there will always be those merfolk kiddies... dunno

[Vacrix]

The U/R delver match round 8 was a feature match, so there is likely a video of that somewhere or will be soon. It really should've been a blowout.

Game one I went off and saw a mediocre draw four that only allowed me to tendrils for 16. I had two chrome moxen down though, so I hoped to come back. Unfortunately, I ended up with a culling the weak stuck in my hand with an infernal. I drew the chrome mox to eat that one or two turns too late to get the last tendrils and finish the job.

Game two on my combo turn I just didn't get enough mana. If his mountain had been an island I would have been fine that turn as a I got a second carpet down during the turn, but my last draw four saw belcher, cabal, land grant, land grant and I had bayou already. If not for the mountain I could have done the threshed rit and landed the belcher plus activated iirc.

The draw fours just didn't show me quite what I needed. In retrospect, I could have waited a little longer to go off I think. Oh well.

The BUG loss was just a crap fest.

Game one I mull to 4 I think. A pretty crappy 4 even. Some time later I died to Jace.

Game two I had my only obvious misplay of the day. I was on my combo turn and went for pact. For some reason I had this magical notion that he just HAD to be holding spell pierce so I got an ESG. That put me at 1 storm under lethal with 2 mana available. Obviously I was being an idiot because that wouldn't have mattered. If he had gone pierce and I paid the two I still would have been one short. The correct target was cantor so that I could ESG cast it for my last storm.

That one was the first of the day though, and I got it out of my system there.

No way would I change 3 Tendrils 1 belcher 1 pif 1 muse 2 MM.
I love the setup and it feels so consistent. I think it's absolutely incorrect to play less than 2 tendrils, but really I think 3 is the best number. One of the biggest strengths of the deck is easily getting natural draws of tendrils from your draw fours. That basically never happens if you play only one and not often with two. I win all the time without ever casting a tutor and it's fantastic.

I agree about 4 carpets. I am planning on cutting my MM in the board for the fourth one.

My main use of unmask is against Mindbreak trap. People running that usually don't counter your first draw four so you can just turn one a draw four and you'll easily have something to pitch and grab that damn trap. Then you can just pass or go for it if you've got it. I've had really good luck with the card, but your mileage may vary. I just hate duress because it's so slow. Running out a duress turn one then staring down thalia is a nightmare I have had and never with to see be a reality.

I looked at your post a second time and realized a few important things I should note.

One of the games you lost, you D4 into a Tendrils for 16. You had access to 2 Chrome Moxen and drew another one with fodder a few turns before you were killed. That gives you one or two activations. Belcher over Tendrils would have won you this game.

In the other game against UR your last D4 yielded 2 Land Grants, Cabal Ritual, and Belcher. After you board in 1 or 2 lands post-board, you can actually take advantage of those Land Grants. Honestly, the key to outplaying control with your D4's means you want to run as few dead cards as possible... so you aren't spending Petal, Drit, CB to draw only 3 cards because one of them is dead. Same goes for Pacts, Cullings, creatures, Arbor, etc. My board plan would have won you this game as well, Ceteris paribus.

Be wary when mulling below 6 in game 1. At 6, if you have a perpetual mana source like Land Grant or Chrome Mox, and either a ritual or a business spell, I tend to keep that hand simply because its safer than getting stuck with a mediocre 4 or 5.. especially in game 1. A 6 or 7 card hand against BUG control is really what you want, even if its shitty, because you have access to more resources, they play discard, and you might run into Liliana. Not that you could have known it the matchup.. but regardless. Mulligans in game 1 are much different than in games 2/3. Especially when the opponent has no idea how explosive you can be. Sometimes I lead with something really dumb like Bayou, Odious Trow. And my opponent just stares at me like they got paired against the 12 year old that 'borrowed' his brother's 'cool double land thingy'. Same thing can be said of opening with Arbor go, sometimes its better to debate it like you are playing another deck, but don't have an opening play and want to make sure your land doesn't have summoning sickness or some shit so you can play your 2 drop on turn 2. Subtle ideas like these, and especially timing, and just completely lower your opponent's expectations of your explosiveness.

In the other game against BUG, yeah your playmistake ultimately killed you, but had you boarded out the entire Culling/Pact system then you might be in a completely different situation entirely. Honestly, I find it almost impossible to Tendrils out a BUG control player. They will always have a counter for something and they play Jace and Liliana, both which stop you from sculpting in their own way, and they can blow the board if you over commit too many perpetual resources.. etc. I find its easier to grind on them with D4s until you overpower them with resources. As long as you have a decent board state, resolved D4s allow you to gain enough resources in hand that blowing the board with Deed won't set you back so that you can't combo, especially when you draw protection spells or EtW's. Its a more reliable plan just to treat each business spell as a threat equivalent to a Belcher because when every card you draw does something (unlike Pact, Culling, Land Grant, creatures) your D4s become deadly resources instead of puzzles that may require an additional D4, more storm, etc.

The reason I don't play Unmask in the post-board is that you are already usually going to trade 2 cards for 2 cards against control. You play something, ideally, like Carpet, Chrome Mox, or Land Grant, into rituals and a D4. They respond with a counter. As long as you keep your perpetual resources, you usually only spend like 2 cards to go off; a ritual, and a D4. Why trade a business spell and a protection spell when you can just play something like Duress the turn before you go off to make sure the coast is clear? Also, I've had many occassions where my opponent lets Dark Ritual resolve, not thinking I have a follow up ritual, and I Duress first with the BBB, then Cabal Ritual, then D4. Granted, you seem to be more concerned with speed in the post-board than I am. I tend to give myself a solid 5-8 turns to beat a tempo deck, and more like 20+ for a slow control deck.

I kinda started rambling though... fucking adderall. The point is that the the 3 Tendrils 1 Belcher, X MM builds are still good, but that build has a different advantage than the builds that run more Charbelchers; Charbelcher is a post-board staple with the Carpet of Flowers plan and you have a better matchup in general against Aggro because you can sit on a Belcher and mana sources without having to pay life and bide your time without risking a failed attempt and then getting burnt out with reach spells. Also, in the discard matchup, its much more feasible to just drop perpetuals and D4 into a Belcher rather than try to put together a long spell chain. For example, last week I played a match against Pox. I had to mull to 5 in game 1 but I kept it because I had a Chrome Mox and a LED in hand. So he leads with Swamp go, and then I draw another Chrome Mox and just lay down my hand Mox, Mox, LED go. He hymns me to nuke the rest of my hand, and keeps me off cards in hand until I eventually just draw a Petal and I think ESG + Belcher for the kill. Then I won game 2 because he couldn't find the turn 1 discard spell, also off the back of Belcher after a D4 failed. Its just consistent and has a lot more lax requirements. 10 storm requires a full fledged combo turn with lots of cards in hand. Topdecking a Belcher straight up wins games when you are just sitting on perpetuals and you can't do that with Tendrils. Also, its a business spell on its own that doesn't require other business spells. In other words, Tendrils is technically a win condition, not a business spell. Belcher stands on its own in a 7 card hand but a Tendrils needs to wait for a D4 to accompany it. I dropped the multiple Tendrils builds a while back because I was losing too many games to D4's and having to mulligan hands I could have won had my Tendrils been Belchers... and having a constricted sideboard space to fit in hate for bears, and control, and the Belchers to bring in against blue. Moving the playset to the maindeck allowed me to play through stupid shit like Ethersworn Cannonist. Belcher lets you blank Cannonist and Thalia but Tendrils forces you to deal with those bears. So I dropped the hate for bears too because it became easier to race them with a resolved Belcher waiting for an activation IMS(s)/accelerant/LED etc, or even play/activate Belcher through the hate itself.

On the other hand, Tendrils heavy builds allow you to do something like play 1 D4 into a 10+ ToA without having to do stuff like pass the turn. This also prevents you from dying to hands where you must go all in with Pact. Further, it allows you to go off with D4's that aren't perfectly compatible with the rest of your hand, because you only need like 7 mana to finish the game with access to 11 cards, so as long as you can play 10 spells, you can go off with significantly less mana and don't expose yourself to a late-spell chain Force when your opponent sees the Tendrils instead of Belcher.

Still I find that the advantages of the Charbelcher builds outweigh the Tendrils builds.

[kusumoto]

I looked at your post a second time and realized a few important things I should note.

One of the games you lost, you D4 into a Tendrils for 16. You had access to 2 Chrome Moxen and drew another one with fodder a few turns before you were killed. That gives you one or two activations. Belcher over Tendrils would have won you this game.

In the other game against UR your last D4 yielded 2 Land Grants, Cabal Ritual, and Belcher. After you board in 1 or 2 lands post-board, you can actually take advantage of those Land Grants. Honestly, the key to outplaying control with your D4's means you want to run as few dead cards as possible... so you aren't spending Petal, Drit, CB to draw only 3 cards because one of them is dead. Same goes for Pacts, Cullings, creatures, Arbor, etc. My board plan would have won you this game as well, Ceteris paribus.

Be wary when mulling below 6 in game 1. At 6, if you have a perpetual mana source like Land Grant or Chrome Mox, and either a ritual or a business spell, I tend to keep that hand simply because its safer than getting stuck with a mediocre 4 or 5.. especially in game 1. A 6 or 7 card hand against BUG control is really what you want, even if its shitty, because you have access to more resources, they play discard, and you might run into Liliana. Not that you could have known it the matchup.. but regardless. Mulligans in game 1 are much different than in games 2/3. Especially when the opponent has no idea how explosive you can be. Sometimes I lead with something really dumb like Bayou, Odious Trow. And my opponent just stares at me like they got paired against the 12 year old that 'borrowed' his brother's 'cool double land thingy'. Same thing can be said of opening with Arbor go, sometimes its better to debate it like you are playing another deck, but don't have an opening play and want to make sure your land doesn't have summoning sickness or some shit so you can play your 2 drop on turn 2. Subtle ideas like these, and especially timing, and just completely lower your opponent's expectations of your explosiveness.

In the other game against BUG, yeah your playmistake ultimately killed you, but had you boarded out the entire Culling/Pact system then you might be in a completely different situation entirely. Honestly, I find it almost impossible to Tendrils out a BUG control player. They will always have a counter for something and they play Jace and Liliana, both which stop you from sculpting in their own way, and they can blow the board if you over commit too many perpetual resources.. etc. I find its easier to grind on them with D4s until you overpower them with resources. As long as you have a decent board state, resolved D4s allow you to gain enough resources in hand that blowing the board with Deed won't set you back so that you can't combo, especially when you draw protection spells or EtW's. Its a more reliable plan just to treat each business spell as a threat equivalent to a Belcher because when every card you draw does something (unlike Pact, Culling, Land Grant, creatures) your D4s become deadly resources instead of puzzles that may require an additional D4, more storm, etc.

The reason I don't play Unmask in the post-board is that you are already usually going to trade 2 cards for 2 cards against control. You play something, ideally, like Carpet, Chrome Mox, or Land Grant, into rituals and a D4. They respond with a counter. As long as you keep your perpetual resources, you usually only spend like 2 cards to go off; a ritual, and a D4. Why trade a business spell and a protection spell when you can just play something like Duress the turn before you go off to make sure the coast is clear? Also, I've had many occassions where my opponent lets Dark Ritual resolve, not thinking I have a follow up ritual, and I Duress first with the BBB, then Cabal Ritual, then D4. Granted, you seem to be more concerned with speed in the post-board than I am. I tend to give myself a solid 5-8 turns to beat a tempo deck, and more like 20+ for a slow control deck.

I kinda started rambling though... fucking adderall. The point is that the the 3 Tendrils 1 Belcher, X MM builds are still good, but that build has a different advantage than the builds that run more Charbelchers; Charbelcher is a post-board staple with the Carpet of Flowers plan and you have a better matchup in general against Aggro because you can sit on a Belcher and mana sources without having to pay life and bide your time without risking a failed attempt and then getting burnt out with reach spells. Also, in the discard matchup, its much more feasible to just drop perpetuals and D4 into a Belcher rather than try to put together a long spell chain. For example, last week I played a match against Pox. I had to mull to 5 in game 1 but I kept it because I had a Chrome Mox and a LED in hand. So he leads with Swamp go, and then I draw another Chrome Mox and just lay down my hand Mox, Mox, LED go. He hymns me to nuke the rest of my hand, and keeps me off cards in hand until I eventually just draw a Petal and I think ESG + Belcher for the kill. Then I won game 2 because he couldn't find the turn 1 discard spell, also off the back of Belcher after a D4 failed. Its just consistent and has a lot more lax requirements. 10 storm requires a full fledged combo turn with lots of cards in hand. Topdecking a Belcher straight up wins games when you are just sitting on perpetuals and you can't do that with Tendrils. Also, its a business spell on its own that doesn't require other business spells. In other words, Tendrils is technically a win condition, not a business spell. Belcher stands on its own in a 7 card hand but a Tendrils needs to wait for a D4 to accompany it. I dropped the multiple Tendrils builds a while back because I was losing too many games to D4's and having to mulligan hands I could have won had my Tendrils been Belchers... and having a constricted sideboard space to fit in hate for bears, and control, and the Belchers to bring in against blue. Moving the playset to the maindeck allowed me to play through stupid shit like Ethersworn Cannonist. Belcher lets you blank Cannonist and Thalia but Tendrils forces you to deal with those bears. So I dropped the hate for bears too because it became easier to race them with a resolved Belcher waiting for an activation IMS(s)/accelerant/LED etc, or even play/activate Belcher through the hate itself.

On the other hand, Tendrils heavy builds allow you to do something like play 1 D4 into a 10+ ToA without having to do stuff like pass the turn. This also prevents you from dying to hands where you must go all in with Pact. Further, it allows you to go off with D4's that aren't perfectly compatible with the rest of your hand, because you only need like 7 mana to finish the game with access to 11 cards, so as long as you can play 10 spells, you can go off with significantly less mana and don't expose yourself to a late-spell chain Force when your opponent sees the Tendrils instead of Belcher.

Still I find that the advantages of the Charbelcher builds outweigh the Tendrils builds.

Yes a belcher would have won that first game. I'll give you that.

I couldn't have taken advantage of those land grants. I can still only play one land per turn. I know that I could have waited one more turn both games in this match but I certainly couldn't durdle around for a million turns like I was playing against BUG. Delver is far too fast for me to sit around forever. I think the wait wait plan is terrible against them.

I know that everyone always says take out the full pact configuration against control, but I think that's wrong. I never cut all of my pacts. Yes I will cut culling the weaks, because I don't want to get two for oned. Remember that I play my list fundamentally different than yours.

Everybody in this thread seems to have been forgetting one of the original reasons that Tendrils of Agony is so good. You can't force a tendrils! Running a million belchers is great and all post board when you can overwhelm them with carpet mana, but game one those belchers lose to force where tendrils wins.

I actually did that dryad arbor bit against a deadguy player and it was quite hilarious. I led with arbor and on his turn he plowed it. Then I did nothing and acted sad. He rejoiced on his turn two and told his friend how awesome his play was. The next turn he died and I thought it was pretty funny.

Again, the main use of Unmask is against mindbreak traps. That way you can go all in against people packing those. Against control it's hardly worth it to bother with discard at all for the reasons you stated. I felt like boarding in the unmasks was good against the UR player since I know they are counter light. I just have never seen a list THAT counter light or I wouldn't even have bothered.

I think more belchers game one than tendrils are worse because of the reasons I stated. People almost always let draw fours resolve. If they do that against a tendrils config, they are most likely going to die. If you're relying on belcher all the time, they can mull to force and beat you just by waiting for that last spell every time. Three tendrils means I can natural cast a tendrils and laugh at the force you have been saving this whole time. Again postboard it's good to cut some for belchers to do the grindy overwhelm them thing. I totally agree with that, but even though it's a lot easier to play belchers, I think game one tendrils are worth the effort and risk. I've also had lots of game ones where I cast tendrils twice in a turn to win.

I'm never giving up my pile of tendrils game one. To each his own I guess.

[Vacrix]

I guess maybe ceterus paribus, extra lands might not have helped you off that D4 into x2 LG, but I find that UR Delver doesn't consistently put on a fast clock. Delvers don't always flip, Lavamancers don't really threaten you that much. As I said earlier in the thread, I heard that people were having some trouble against Delver so I played a bunch of matches against it and went 5-1 preboard 2-1 post-board. I think we have a solid matchup against them, especially if they think they can stop you with Daze.

Why would you want to keep in Pacts? Not only do they force you to go all in, which prevents grinding with Carpet, there isn't much utility to be had from it unless you want do something like Pact into Dosan and then use perpetuals to pay for the Pact on the following turn. Even so, would it be any worse than a protection spell? It doesn't have much application as a green source because you want green sources in the post-board to play Carpets. Also, Culling the Weak makes Pact too conditional and forces you to play Arbor, which is a subpar slot if you board out even 2 Cullings. Unless you board in Cabal Ritual, it won't have a purpose as often. Also, if you can't manage to chain D4's together, its unlikely you'll be able to pair Pact/LG/Culling up. Tendrils is great if you can get off a D4 but you have to keep in mind that not everyone knows how the deck works. Some people won't wait for Belcher, they will go straight for your D4's, sometimes IMS's, and sometimes rituals. I've had players spend their countermagic usually on a single type of card, sometimes its business, but sometimes its rituals and they just counter every ritual you play and let your useless business pile up in your hand. You don't always get the opportunity to play Tendrils through their countermagic. Also, post-board Belcher dodges Flusterstorm so it tends to be a safer business spell anyway. Late-chain FoW on Tendrils is a rare experience for me.

Also, about D4's always resolving.. not necessarily. Some people put you on storm immediately and treat it as an AdN-esque engine and counter it immediately. Others try to cheat more life out of you by letting one resolve, or wait for you to play Infernal Tutor, etc. If people you play against let it resolve, I'd say Tendrils is a pretty solid way to go. I tend to lose my D4's to countermagic whenever I play one, especially the first one.

[kusumoto]

I do take out all copies of culling the weak against blue. I never go below 2 pact though.

The card is still useful when grinding out games. I'm not saying I go turn one pact against them or anything. Pact -> ESG when you have cantor or pact -> cantor when you have ESG is an IMS for black. Pact is can also be anti daze. It can also force belcher activations so that you don't have to pass the turn with it. In some cases you just imprint it on mox to cast carpet. I know it's dangerous, but I think when your plan is to overwhelm them post board it helps to have a couple of these still in. You just have to be really careful. Technically pact killed me that postboard game against BUG, but really it was my own miscalculation that did it. If I hadn't been tired and stupid at that moment the pact would have won me that game.

I thought I had said that flusterstorm was one of the reasons for belchers in my board. That is one of the reasons it's there. Having said that, if you're fighting through non flusterstorm counterspells you can still sometimes get enough mana from carpets and what not to use their counters against them for storm count. Other than that I totally agree about post board belchers. I just never play a game with this deck without at least one tendrils in the 60.

I didn't say they always resolve. It is just really common for people to think they can let some of them resolve to capitalize on your life loss. That's the main way we can beat blue decks anyway. Sure the deck has lots of bombs blah blah blah etc etc. If people were able to just counter our draw fours every time, they would win most of the time. I know we can get around that counter strategy sometimes, but it's pretty rare. People generally not being inclined to counter draw fours is in my opinion one of the strongest aspects of this deck.

I see now that UR delver should be a better matchup than I had expected going into that round. They can be really fast, but they don't have as much interaction as I had expected. I would say we can probably give them 3 turns tops though or they will have you dead most of the time by turn 4/5 at the latest. Sometimes they'll get a bunch of lavamancers or some crap, but I doubt that's very common.

I feel this week is going very slowly. I'm really itching to turn one some people again this weekend at the GP. Legacy side events yay!

[MTG Junkie]

What is the most updated list for S.I.?

[kusumoto]

What is the most updated list for S.I.?

This is what I am currently running...


4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Land Grant
3 Tendrils of Agony
1 Wild Cantor
1 Odious Trow
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Past in Flames
1 Slithermuse
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Culling the Weak
2 Manamorphose



SB


4 Carpet of Flowers
3 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Unmask


Vacrix runs a different list though, so you may want to see that as well.

[MTG Junkie]

I made a list from the primer that's similar to your's. Goldfishing and testing hasn't been going the greatest. I thought this deck was supposed to have far more turn 1 wins than Belcher,but from testing and goldfishing it mulls and fizzles way more.
The Summoners Pacts and E.S.Gs seem to just cludder up my hands,it also seems like Culling the Week 2-4 are dead draws.

Don't get me wrong I'm not reddy give up on the deck,ill just have to test diffrent stuff out.
All ideas and feedback are wellcome.

[kusumoto]

I made a list from the primer that's similar to your's. Goldfishing and testing hasn't been going the greatest. I thought this deck was supposed to have far more turn 1 wins than Belcher,but from testing and goldfishing it mulls and fizzles way more.
The Summoners Pacts and E.S.Gs seem to just cludder up my hands,it also seems like Culling the Week 2-4 are dead draws.

Don't get me wrong I'm not reddy give up on the deck,ill just have to test diffrent stuff out.
All ideas and feedback are wellcome.

No just keep goldfishing and you'll get used to how it runs.

It's really easy to fizzle at first, but once you have gone through the motions a lot more you will see the lines of play that you are missing.

Don't be terribly scared to take some mulligans, but don't over do it when you are doing that and also when trying to go off. My point in saying that is that even though you CAN go off with almost no resources, your fizzle rate obviously goes up the less resources you have.

If you cast a draw four, you have to think about whether or not you should keep going. You don't always just expend all your resources struggling to keep a spell chain going. It is often the best play to cast a draw four turn one and just pass the turn then win the next. If it's clear that you will have enough mana to keep going, you can try it.

The main thing is mana. You should always be swimming in business. You have to get used to using your mana correctly and knowing when it's safe to pact and when to wait. Pact and ESG are extremely potent mana sources. Pact -> ESG -> Cantor is one of the most powerful and useful things this deck can do.

Don't give up on PSI. It's by far the best version of this deck. It just takes a lot of getting used to.

EDIT: What's your list exactly?

[Vacrix]

Well, read the primer again and don't push the deck right when you start playing to get turn 1 kills. To be honest, most people make that mistake. Within a few weeks of solid playtesting, you are going to have about as many or more turn 1 kills than Belcher which is about 35% (cause of Empty the Warrens as 7/11 of the win cons). As long as you don't push the deck over its limits, too early into learning the deck, you'll be able to play the deck.

Turn 1 kills are kinda like trying a fancy trick in your new private jet. You bought the jet because you heard you could do this gnarly spinning trick.. But thats not going to be the first thing you do when you learn to fly it.. right? I've found that you seriously can't learn to play the deck this way or else you get extremely reckless in how you choose to play and thats not a good philosophy to have as a student of the deck. This is a volatile combo deck; hell, its like a bomb made out of water. If you get cocky, it melts through your hands and explodes. I'd say the best way to approach this deck is that its fast and leave it at that. Start with mulliganing hands that you cannot go off with into hands you can surely go off with. There are some matchups (like discard and control (G1)) in which you need to know which hands these are, even if you have to slow play them. Chrome Mox is a great card to keep if you are waiting on something else in your hand to go off. Once you get normally mulligans down, then you can move on to speed mulligans where you chase the turn 1 kill that you seriously need (because the matchup demands it). Honestly, I don't find myself needing the turn 1 kill often, but when I do, its good to know I have access to the fastest 6 shooter around. I mostly play against control these days, mostly against slow control decks because the matchup is so much fun.

Also, its important to understand different play decisions and order of which spells to save for the new 4 cards, which cards to play before the D4, cracking blind LEDs, IT targets, boarding, etc. Your ability to win turn 1 is due in part to extreme familiarity with the deck and that comes with playing it without mulliganing every hand that doesn't win turn 1.

[MTG Junkie]

Kusumoto-It's your list but with E Witt and Belcher #2 over Wild Cantore and PiF.

[Vacrix]

Heavy Tendrils (2-4 copies) is probably the best way to abuse additional copies of PiF. Keep in mind though that with lists like these, the mulligans are far more skill intensive because Tendrils and PiF don't function as business spell on their own like Belchers. Then again, there are probably going to be hands with PiF and Tendrils that allow you to natural Tendrils without drawing any cards.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

Hey guys. Just to say it gives me a funny feeling in my tummy that someone is still working on this deck :D. Is it really viable these days with all the stifles and blue things around these days? I'd love to re-sleeve it for a bit. Keep pushing those turn 1s guys :).

The Spanish Tunnel King

[kusumoto]

Hey guys. Just to say it gives me a funny feeling in my tummy that someone is still working on this deck :D. Is it really viable these days with all the stifles and blue things around these days? I'd love to re-sleeve it for a bit. Keep pushing those turn 1s guys :).

The Spanish Tunnel King

A lot of the blue guys have been cutting stifles lately and some are even cutting down on forces. There is also a bunch of Maverick and Burn out there so I think we definitely have our place.

[andy]

I'm just getting back into Magic after several years away from it. I used to play 1-land Belcher in Vintage, but the Legacy Belcher deck seems far less interesting. I've recently picked up PSI, which is far more interesting and fun to play for me. But it seems to me that the claims of 60%+ turn 1 wins are nonsense. I consider myself a fairly competent combo player, but I'm perfectly willing to entertain the idea that I'm just missing something (not seeing complicated play lines, making poor mulligan decisions, etc.). Below I've given the current list that I'm testing along with 30 sample hands. I haven't left anything out of these; they contain every mulligan and every play. I'd love it if some players who are more experienced with this deck could point out poor mulligan/keep decisions or missed plays that might have affected the T1 win rate.

Is there a way to hide text? I tried [hide] and [spoiler], neither of which worked. So I apologize for this ridiculously long post.


List
4 Cruel Bargain
4 Infernal Contract
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Goblin Charbelcher
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Slithermuse

1 Odious Trow
1 Wild Cantor
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Summoner's Pact

4 Culling the Weak
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Land Grant

1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor



Some notes:

• Some quick stats: 30 hands. 8 T1 wins (about 27%). In 19 hands (about 63%), I took a mulligan at least once. Five of the T1 wins (1, 7, 11, 19, 29) were with 7-card starting hands. The other three (4, 8, 26) were with 6-card hands. Although I'm aware it's theoretically possible, I never saw a 3-, 4-, or 5-card T1 win.
• As far as I can tell, no 2-card opening hand could get a T1 win, even theoretically. For any starting hand with more than 3 cards, if there is 0 chance of a T1 win, then taking the mulligan is the correct decision for maximizing the T1 win percentage. That having been said, in hands 2, 3, 12, 13, 16, 17, 18, 20, 22, and 23, I kept 4- or 5-card hands with 0 chance of a T1 win. I don't think this seriously affected my T1 win rate (and, if I had taken a mulligan for each of these hands, I would need to win on T1 every single time for my total T1 win rate to hit 60%). But, going forward, I will mulligan (down to 3) automatically whenever I'm faced with a hand with no possibility of a T1 win.
• I have only identified 5 hands (3, 12, 14, 16, 24) where I chose to mulligan a hand with which a T1 win was not clearly impossible. These were of two types. Either they required very risky Pacts (e.g., Pact for mana to play Belcher and activate with 2 lands left in the deck, a very low percentage play). Or they could play a D4, but only with no mana floating (and sometimes after a Pact). I'm not sure how aggressively to mulligan the latter hands. Playing a D4 with 0 mana floating vs. 1+ mana floating makes a big difference to your ability to continue. I don't think I ever (in the hands below) played a D4 with no mana floating (or mana already in hand that I could rely on) and was able to pull out a win. In hands 6 and 10, I kept opening hands which could play a D4 with no mana floating, and neither led to T1 wins.
• I gave up after T5, and marked those games losses. Not all hands marked "Lose" below are Pact deaths.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sample Hands:

1. (T1) LG, Petal, DRit, CRit, Bargain, CtW, Tendrils: Keep

T1: LG (1) -> Arbor. Petal (2, B). CtW (Arbor) -> (3, BBBB). Bargain (4, B).
Draw: Tutor, Contract, Bargain, Petal.
DRit (5, BBB). Tutor (6, B) -> CRit. Petal (7, BB).
CRit with threshold (8, BBBBB). CRit with threshold (9, BBBBBBBB). Tendrils for 20.


2. (Lose) CRit, Tutor, 2xBelcher, 3xContract: Mull.
Bayou, Arbor, Petal, Mox, DRit, Cantor: Mull.
ESG, CRit, Tutor, 2xBelcher: Mull.
Arbor, CtW, CRit, Contract: Keep.

T1: Arbor, pass.
T2: Draw CtW, pass.
T3: Draw ESG, pass.
T4: Draw Contract, pass.
T5: Draw DRit, pass.
Give up.


3. (T3) Arbor, Mox, ESG, DRit, Tutor, Belcher, Slithermuse: Mull.
Petal, CRit, Pact, Bargain, Belcher, Slithermuse: Mull. (?, I'm not super comfortable using Pact to lead into a D4 with no mana floating and no mana sources.)
LG, LG, Pact, PiF, Tendrils: Mull.
DRit, LED, Bargain, Belcher: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw Tutor, pass.
T3: Draw LG. LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). LED (2, B). DRit (3, BBB). Bargain, crack LED in response (4, BBB).
Draw: ESG, CRit, 2xTutor. (6 in graveyard.)
ESG (4, BBBG). Tutor (5, BB) -> CRit. CRit (6, BBBBB). CRit (7, BBBBBBBB).
Tutor (8, BBBBBB) -> Tutor. Tutor (9, BBBB) -> Tendrils. Tendrils for 20.


4. (T1) Bayou, Arbor, Mox, Trow, Contract, 2xTutor: Mull.
LG, Petal, 2xCRit, LED, Bargain: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). Petal (2, BB). 2xCRit (4, BBBB). LED (5, BBBB). Bargain, crack LED in response (6, BBBB).
Draw: Petal, DRit, Trow, Tutor.
Petal (7, BBBBB). DRit (8, BBBBBBB). Trow (9, BBBBBB). Tutor (10, BBBB) -> Tendrils. Tendrils for 22.


5. (T2) LG, Petal, ESG, DRit, CRit, Contract, Tutor: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). Contract (3).
Draw: Mox, Petal, Tutor, Belcher. (I can't get that Belcher out of hand to use Tutors effectively. Best I can do appears to be:)
Mox (Tutor), (B). Petal (BB). CRit (BBB). ESG (BBBG). Belcher, pass.
T2: Draw LED. LED. Petal (B). Tap Mox (BB). Tutor, crack LED in response -> Arbor. Activate Belcher for the win.


6. (Lose) LG, DRit, CtW, Contract, 2xBargain, Tendrils: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). Contract (3).
Draw: DRit, 2xCtW, Contract. (No initial mana.)
Pass (8 cards in hand, discard CtW).
T2: Draw Petal. Tap Bayou (B). DRit (1, BBB). Contract (2).
Draw: Mox, ESG, CtW, Tutor. (Can't get to BBB for another D4. Best I can see is to plan ahead:)
Petal (B). ESG (BG). Tutor -> Mox. Mox (CtW). (I only play one now so the other counts towards storm next turn.) Pass.
T3: Draw Bargain. Mox (CtW). Tap 2xMox and Bayou (1, BBB). Bargain (2).
Draw: 2xPetal, Mox, Belcher.
Petal (3, B). Petal (4, B). Mox (Bargain) (5, BBB). Bargain (6, 1 life).
Draw: CRits, Contract, Bargain, Tendrils.
Give up.


7. (T1) LG, Mox, Pact, ESG, CtW, LED, Belcher: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (B). Pact (2, B) -> Trow. Mox (ESG) (3, BG). Trow (4, B). CtW (Trow) (5, BBBB).
Belcher (6). LED (7). Sac LED to activate Belcher (1 land left) for 36.


8. (T1) Bayou, LG, Mox, ESG, Pact, DRit, LED: Mull.
Mox, ESG, CRit, 2xLED, Tutor: Keep.

T1: Mox (Crit) (1, B). ESG (1, BG). 2xLED (3, BG). Tutor, cracking 2xLED in response (4, BBBUUU) -> Slithermuse. Evoke Slithermuse (5, BB).
Draw: Mox, Petal, CRit, Contract, 2xBargain, Tendrils.
CRit (6, BBB). Contract (7).
Draw: Cantor, 2xCtW, Contract.
Petal (8, G). Cantor (9). Mox (Bargain) (10, B). CtW (Cantor) (11, BBBB). Tendrils for 24.


9. (Lose) LG, 2xMox, 2xPetal, Tutor, Belcher: Mull.
2xESG, Petal, CRit, Contract, Tutor: Keep.

T1: Petal (1, B). ESG (1, BG). CRit (2, BBB). Contract (3).
Draw: Pact, CtW, Contract, Belcher. (One mana short of using CtW into Contract.)
Pass.
T2: Draw CtW. Pass.
T3: Draw Tutor. Discard Belcher. Pass.
T4: Draw DRit. Pact (1) -> Cantor. ESG (1, G). Cantor, sac (2, B). DRit (3, BBB). Contract (4).
Draw: CRit, 2xLED, LG.
No way to continue. Die to Pact.


10. (T2) Bayou, ESG, CRit, Contract, 2xBargain, Tutor: Keep.

T1: Bayou (B). ESG (BG). CRit (1, BBB). Contract (2).
Draw: LG, Pact, 2xDRit. (Can't continue.) Pass.
T2: Draw Contract. LG (1) -> Arbor. Tap Bayou (1, B). 2xDRit (3, BBBBB). Contract (4, BB).
Draw: DRit, CRit, Cantor, Contract. (6 cards in graveyard.)
DRit (5, BBBB). Tutor (6, BB) -> CRit. 2xCRit (8, BBBBBBBB). Contract (9, BBBBB).
Draw: ESG, CtW, LED, Tendrils.
Tendrils for 20.


11. (T1) LG, ESG, CtW, 2xDRit, Bargain, Tendrils: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). 2xDRit (3, BBBBB). Bargain (4, BB).
Draw: Cantor, LED, PiF, Contract.
ESG (4, BBG). Cantor (5, BB). CtW (Cantor) (6, BBBBB). LED (7, BBBBB). Contract, sac LED in response (8, BBRRR).
Draw: 2xMox, ESG, Tutor.
Mox (Tutor) (9, BBBRRR). Flashback Pif (10, B). Flashback 2xDRit (12, BBBBB). Flashback Tendrils for 26.


12. (T2) Mox, ESG, DRit, CRit, Contract, PiF, Slithermuse: Mull.
Mox, CtW, Trow, Bargain, Tutor, Belcher: Mull.
ESG, DRit, CtW, LED, Contract: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw Pact. Pact (1) -> Cantor. ESG (1, G). Cantor, sac (2, B). DRit (3, BBB). LED (4, BBB). Contract, sac LED in response (5, BBB).
Draw: Petal, CtW, Trow, Contract.
Petal (6, BBB). Trow (7, BB). CtW (Trow) (8, BBBBB). Contract (9, BB).
Draw: LG, Mox, PiF, Tendrils.
LG (10, BB) -> Bayou (10, BBB). Sac Petal (10, BBBB). Tendrils for 22.


13. (T2) DRit, 2xLED, Tutor, Contract, Belcher, Slithermuse: Mull.
ESG, Pact, CRit, 2xLED, Contract: Mull.
Petal, Pact, DRit, CRit, Tendrils: Mull.
LG, LG, DRit, Belcher: Keep.

T1: LG -> Arbor. LG -> Bayou. Pass.
T2: Draw LED. Bayou (B). DRit (BBB). LED. Tap Arbor (BBBG). Belcher. Sac LED to activate Belcher with 0 lands left.


14. (Lose) ESG, Petal, CRit, Trow, Cantor, Bargain, Tutor: Mull.
Petal, 2xESG, DRit, Bargain, Tendrils: Keep.

T1: Petal (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). Bargain (3).
Draw: Bayou, 2xPetal, LED.
Bayou. Pass.
T2: Draw DRit. Pass.
T3: Draw Pact. Petal. Pass.
T4: Draw Arbor. Arbor. Pass.
T5: Draw Pact.
Give up.


15. (T2) 2xESG, 2xCRit, CtW, LED, Belcher: Mull.
LG, 2xPetal, CtW, DRit, Tutor: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Arbor. Petal (1, B). CtW (Arbor) (2, BBBB). DRit (3, BBBBBB). Petal, sac (4, BBBBBBU). Tutor (4, BBBBU) -> Slithermuse. Evoke Slithermuse (5, B).
Draw: LG, Mox, Cantor, LD, Bargain, 2xBelcher. (Can't cast Bargain or Belcher.)
Pass.
T2: Draw DRit. LG -> Bayou (B). DRit (BBB). Mox (Cantor) (BBBG). Belcher. LED, activate Belcher with 0 lands left.


16. (T5) Mox, 2xESG, Pact, LED, Contract, Belcher: Mull. (Can't play the Bargain. Could only play and activate Belcher with 2 lands left and 1 mana source after a Pact.)
Bayou, Mox, Cantor, CRit, CtW, Belcher: Mull.
DRit, CtW, LED, Bargain, Contract: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw Contract. Pass.
T3: Draw LED. Pass.
T4: Draw ESG. LED. Pass.
T5: Draw Mox. Mox (Contract) (1, B). LED (2, B). DRit (3, BBB). ESG (3, BBBG). Contract, sac both LED in response (4, BBBBBBG).
Draw: Mox, Tutor, Bargain, Belcher.
Bargain (5,BBBG).
Draw: Arbor, LG, CRit, Belcher.
Tutor (6, BB) -> CRit. Arbor. LG (7, BB) -> Bayou. 2xCrit (9, BBBBBBBB). Belcher, activate with 0 land left.


17. (T4) ESG, Cantor, Tutor, Bargain, 2xContract, Tendrils: Mull.
Mox, DRit, Tutor, PiF, 2xBelcher: Mull.
Bayou, ESG, Pact, CtW, DRit: Mull.
Mox, LED, Tutor, Tutor: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw PiF. Pass.
T3: Draw LG. LG (1) -> Bayou (1,B). LED (2,B). Mox (Tutor) (3, BB). Tutor, sac LED in response (4, BBB) -> Contract. Contract (5).
Draw: Arbor, Petal, CtW, Belcher.
Pass.
T4: Draw Petal. Arbor. Tap Mox (B). CtW (Arbor) (BBBB). Belcher. 2xPetal, sac (BB). Tap Bayou (BBB). Activate Belcher with 0 lands left.


18. (T4) LG, Petal, 2xCtW, 2xPact, Tendrils: Mull.
LG, CRit, Contract, PiF, Belcher, Tendrils: Mull.
2xCtW, 2xLED, Bargain: Mull.
Petal, Mox, Bargain, Belcher: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw Mox. Pass.
T3: Draw DRit. Petal, sac (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). Bargain (3).
Draw: LG, Petal, Tutor, PiF.
LG -> Bayou (B). Petal, sac (BB). 2xMox (Tutor, PiF) (BBBR). Belcher. Pass.
T4: Draw CtW. Tap Bayou, 2xMox (BBR). Activate Belcher (1 land left) for 32.


19. (T1) Mox, 2xCRit, 2xDRit, Bargain, Belcher: Keep.

T1: Mox (CRit) (1, B). 2xDRit (3, BBBBB). Bargain (4, BB).
Draw: DRit, Contract, Bargain, Tendrils.
DRit (5, BBBB). CRit (6, BBBBB). Bargain (7, BB).
Draw: ESG, CRit, CtW, PiF. (6 cards in graveyard. I don't think I can get thresh before playing this CRit.)
CRit (8, BBB). Contract (9).
Draw: Bayou, Pact, Cantor, Contract.
Bayou (9, B). Pact (10, B) -> ESG (10, BG). Cantor (11, B). CtW (Cantor) (12, BBBB). Tendrils for 26.


20. (Lose) Pact, 2xESG, CtW, 2xLED, Belcher: Mull.
LG, 2xPetal, ESG, CRit, LED: Mull.
Mox, CtW, CRit, PiF, Belcher: Mull.
Pact, CtW, Tutor, Bargain: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw CtW. Pass.
T3: Draw LED. Pass.
T4: Draw Contract. Pass.
T5: Draw Mox. LED (1). Mox (CtW) (2, B). Pact (3, B) -> Arbor. CtW (Arbor) (4, BBBB). Bargain, sac LED in response (5, BBBB).
(Note: Tutor -> IGG here would be an auto-win, but I don't play an IGG. Also, if this were T1, T1 -> Slithermuse would be better.)
Draw: Mox, ESG, Pact, CtW. (I don't play Witness.)
Fizzle and die to Pact.


21. (Lose) Mox, Petal, Pact, CRit, Tutor, 2xBargain: Keep.

T1: Mox (Bargain) (1, B). Petal, sac (2, BB). CRit (3, BBB). Bargain (4).
(Note: alternative is to Pact -> ESG, use Mox and ESG to pay for CRit, and save Petal for starting mana after Bargain. But that seems a bit risky.)
Draw: CtW, LED, Bargain, LED. (Note: alternative play above would have killed me.)
Pass.
T2: Draw Slithermuse. Pact (1) -> Arbor. Tap Mox (1, B). CtW (Arbor) (2, BBBB). LED (3, BBBB). Bargain, sac LED in response (4, BBBB).
Draw: Mox, ESG, Tutor, Bargain.
Bargain (5, B).
Draw: LG, Mox, Petal, CtW.
(Note: current hand is 2xMox, Petal, LG, ESG, CtW, Tutor. Storm is 5. B floating. 2 life. I don't see how I can continue. It would take half my hand to pay for Pact, and then I'm topdecking.)


22. (T6) 2xLG, 2xPetal, ESG, Cantor, DRit: Mull.
Bayou, Mox, CtW, Bargain, Belcher, Tendrils: Mull.
Mox, CtW, Contract, 2xBargain: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw ESG. Pass.
T3: Draw Petal. Pass.
T4: Draw Tendrils. Petal. Pass.
T5: Draw Bayou. Bayou (B). Sac Petal (BB). Mox (Bargain) (1, BBB). Contract (2).
Draw: LG, DRit, CtW, Belcher. Discard Tendrils. Pass.
T6: Draw LED. LG -> Arbor. Tap Bayou, Mox (BB). DRit (BBBB). CtW (Arbor) (BBBBBBB). Belcher (BBB). Activate with 0 land left.


23. (Lose) Pact, DRit, CtW, 2xContract, 2xBelcher: Mull.
Pact, DRit, LED< Contract, Belcher, Tendrils: Mull.
DRit, Mox, Pact, LED: Mull.
DRit, CRit, Bargain, Slithermuse: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw ESG. Pass.
T3: Draw DRit. Pass.
T4: Draw Tendrils. Pass.
T5: Draw ESG.
Give up.


24. (T3) Petal, 2xPact, CtW, CRit, Tendrils, Belcher: Mull.
2xPact, CRit, Cantor, Tutor, Bargain: Mull. (2xPact -> 2xESG, Cantor, CRit, Bargain floating nothing is very risky.)
Bayou, Mox, ESG, DRit, Bargain: Keep.

T1: Bayou (B). DRit (1, BBB). Bargain (2).
Draw: LG, LED, Tutor, Belcher.
LG -> Arbor. Pass.
T2: Draw Contract. Arbor. Pass.
T3: Draw Trow. Mox (Trow) (B). ESG (BG). Tap Bayou and Arbor (BBGG). Belcher. LED, sac to activate Belcher with 0 land left.


25. (T2) Bayou, Mox, Petal, LED, Tendrils, Belcher, Tutor: Keep.

T1: Bayou (B). Mox (Tendrils) (1, BB). LED (2, BB). Petal (3, BB). Tutor, sac LED in response (4, BBB) -> Contract. Contract (5).
Draw: LG, DRit, CtW, Mox.
Pass.
T2: Draw Slithermuse. LG (1) -> Arbor. Mox (nothing) (2). Tap Mox (2, B). DRit (3, BBB). Tap Bayou (3, BBBB). Sac Petal (3, BBBBU). Evoke Slithermuse (4, B). In response to trigger, CtW (Slithermuse) (5). "Leaves play" trigger:
Draw: Pact, CRit, CtW, Trow, Belcher. (9 cards in graveyard.)
CtW resolves (5, BBBB). CRit (BBBBBBB). Belcher (BBB). Activate with 0 lands left.


26. (T1) Mox, Trow, 2xCtW, Tutor, Bargain, Belcher: Mull.
LG, DRit, CRit, LED, Contract, Tendrils: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). CRit (3, BBBB). LED (4, BBBB). Contract, sac LED in response (5, BBBB).
Draw: CRit, 2xLED, Bargain. (6 cards in graveyard.)
CRit (6, BBBBB). Bargain, sac LEDs in response (7, BBBBBUUU).
Draw: Mox, Pact, ESG, Bargain.
Bargain (8, BBUUU).
Draw: Mox, Petal, CtW, Tendrils.
Petal (9, BBUUU). Tendrils for 20.


27. (T5) Arbor, Petal, ESG, 2xDRit, Tutor, Tendrils: Mull. (Can't get rid of that Tendrils to make use of the Tutor.)
2xESG, Petal, LED, Contract, Bargain: Mull.
LG, 2xPact, DRit, Tutor: Mull.
Pact, CRit, CtW, Bargain: Keep.

T1: Pass.
T2: Draw DRit. Pass.
T3: Draw LED. Pass.
T4: Draw Tutor. Pass.
T5: Draw Petal. Petal, sac (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). Pact (3, BBB) -> Trow. Trow (4, BB). CtW (Trow) (5, BBBBB). LED (6, BBBBB). Bargain, response CRit, response sac LED (8, BBB). CRit resolves with thresh (8, BBBBBBBB). Bargain resolves:
Draw: Mox, DRit, Slithermuse, Tendrils.
DRit (9, BBBBBBBBBB). Tendrils for 20.


28. (T3) 2xPact, CtW, Contract, Bargain, Slithermuse, PiF: Mull.
LG, DRit, Trow, Cantor, Tutor, Contract: Keep.

T1: LG (1) -> Bayou (1, B). DRit (2, BBB). Contract (3).
Draw: CtW, CRit, 2xBelcher.
Pass.
T2: Draw LED. Tap Bayou (B). Trow. Pass.
T3: Draw LG. LG -> Arbor. Tap Bayou (B). CtW (Trow) (BBBB). Belcher. LED, sac, activate Belcher with 0 land left.


29. (T1) ESG, Pact, 2xDRit, LED, 2xBargain: Keep.

T1: ESG (G). LED (1, G). Pact (2, G) -> Cantor (3). Sac Cantor (3, B). 2xDRit (5, BBBBB). Bargain, sac LED in response (6, BBBBB).
Draw: Mox, Bargain, 2xTutor.
Bargain (7, BB).
Draw: 2xMox, CRit, CtW.
CRit (8, BBBBB). Mox (CtW) (9, BBBBBB). Mox (Tutor) (10, BBBBBBB). Mox (nothing) (11, BBBBBBB). Tutor (12, BBBBB) -> Tendrils. Tendrils for 26.


30. (Lose) Arbor, Pact, ESG, Cantor, DRit, CRit, Bargain: Keep.

T1: ESG (G). Pact (1, G) -> ESG (1, GG). Cantor, sac (2, GB). CRit (3, BBB). DRit (4, BBBBB). Bargain (5, BB).
Draw: LG, Tutor, Bargain, Tendrils.
Fizzle, die to Pact. (Note: Can't get to BBB to cast Bargain. Can't LG -> Bayou because Arbor is in hand.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For anybody who claims they have a 60%+ T1 win rate, could you comment on any of the following:
1. What is your data for this claim? Are you keeping track of your goldfishes carefully, or is this just from memory? If you are keeping track (in a spreadsheet, or notepad, etc.), can you share your data?
2. What percentage of the time do you mulligan?
3. When would you keep/mulligan a starting hand which could play a D4 with no mana floating (or left in hand), assuming you are trying to maximize the probability of a T1 win?

[kusumoto]

I haven't tried to figure out what my turn one rate can be, but I feel that belcher heavy lists make that worse.

I keep belchers in my board for slow rolling control. I feel like I almost always regret having that card in my hand. I noticed it was pretty dead a few times in your goldfishing.

My list has -3 belcher +1 tendrils +2 manamorphose compared to the list you posted.

I didn't read all of your plays super carefully, but I will look at them a bit later.

One thing to note is that even though you can get lucky and get T1 kills all the time, it often requires just that - luck. Turn one D4 with no mana floating is something I do all the time. You aren't necessarily trying to T1 when you do that (that doesn't mean you don't continue if it seems terribly obvious, just be careful) but you will generally get an easy T2 out of that T1 play.

The deck can be crazy fast, but I get a lot of T2,T3 kills as well.

T1 on the draw on the other hand... I could see that being some higher number like the 60% + claims. It just seems really easy to do T1 on the draw really often.

I don't have numbers for T1 % for myself though so I can't claim what my % would be. I guess I will try recording that some time soon here.

[Vacrix]

@andy
I'm a little bit too lazy to reply to each of your 30 games atm but maybe in the near future I'll get around to it. Just know that if you are playing on a program like Cockatrice or Workstation, the shuffler is really important to getting good hands. I like to pile shuffle every single time I draw a hand, even upon mulligans. I get plenty of turn 1's. Also, its not really clear but the turn 1 ratio of 60% can vary drastically. After all, other decks that play lands like Tempo for example get plenty of hands where you straight up draw 1 land a game and need the second one to function efficiently. Same can be said of this deck but in a different context. Sometimes you go off, and refill your hand, drop some initial mana sources and just have to go off on the next turn because its either impossible for you to continue or its the optimal play. Also, you don't really need to win until turn 2 anyway because thats when the hate bears come down. Now, in regards to winning on turn 1 on the draw, thats far easier. In fact, you might want to start by playing on the draw anyway just because its easier to learn the deck. I understand that you've played combo in vintage and you know your shit but this deck isn't anything like what you might play in vintage. Its volatile and hard to control. You simply must learn to play the deck optimally by waiting and not pushing the turn 1. Its not the kind of deck that you can just pick up and practice until you can win on the first turn every game. You need to learn pass the turn plays. Just about everyone who has wandered into the thread and tried this has failed and given up trying to learn the deck. If you're truly interested, I'd seriously recommend trying to learn it from the ground up instead of the top down.




Anyway... I played in a small tournament the other day. $25 buy in so there weren't any scrubs playing bullshit like they do at the weekly local events. Every deck I played against was competitive and I have a pretty good report to give. Granted, I went 2-3, but I whiffed some key games, having been sleep deprived. I rememebered there was a tournament like the morning of, and even arrived a little late (started late though). So with basically no prep sleeping between rounds, I managed to play pretty well with some exceptions.


R1 Belcher:
G1 - I don't know what he's playing but he's a white guy cut up with tatoos so I stereotype him as either a pretty aggressive player, likely combo or aggro. Sometimes you can kinda tell. Turns out I was right, he was playing Belcher. He plays a Gitaxian Probe turn 1, sees my hand, wide eyed, and passes the turn. I draw for the turn, play a D4 into some LEDs and a Wild Cantor, Slithermuse floating BBBBBB and manage to both land Belcher with enough to activate and IT + LED into ToA.
G2 - He has the turn 1 with Belcher with Land Grant. I figure 7/11 times he's going to win with Empty the Warrens so I guess he got pretty lucky.
G3 - I have the turn 1 play 4 D4's into Belcher with enough to kill.
2-1 (record 1-0)

R2 Maverick:
G1 - I've put him on Maverick from scouting. My first round lasted practically 5 minutes so I scouted like all 30-35 players. I play first and lead with Dryad Arbor. He chuckles and plays Savannah, GSZ into his own Arbor. Then I Culling + Land Grant into Belcher + LED for the win.
+1 Taiga
+2 Empty the Warrens
G2 - He leads with Needle on Belcher. I draw and make 8 tokens with Land Grant into Taiga and see if I can get there. He plays some blockers and when I have 6 tokens, drop a Dryad Arbor. He blocks 2 dudes and I'm down to 4 guys + Arbor. He drops 2 more guys, but I have Arbor for the last point of damage. Sick. Its kinda badass actually winning with a forest in a combo deck.
2-0 (record 2-0)

R3 - RUG Tempo
G1 He knows what I'm playing and I know he's playing RUG with Kird Apes. Some list that had 2 top8's at some 729 player tournament in France. I lead with Culling into a D4 but I imprint a Cabal Ritual on my Chrome Mox instead of a D4. The obvious choice was a D4 because I'm more than likely going to draw 1 business spell and I have perpetual resources. I draw 3 business spells and have to IT + LED with only BBB floating into a D4 that is 1 Short of getting there with a Belcher + LED. Lame, I pay for a pact trigger and die shortly. Could have had this game. If I'd held on to the Cabal Ritual I could have had 1 more mana to IT + LED into Slithermuse for a new 7 cards. He didn't have FoW this game.
+15 board
- Out Culling Package, PIF, Muse, ToA
G2 I lead with Carpet of Flowers. He Spell Pierces a Mirri's Guile and sandbags me on lands, leading with a Delver that flips on turn 2. He swings me with it a bunch. I go for a D4 cause I drew 2 Bayou and have 1 from Carpet. He FoW's. Then I land a Chrome Mox and Taiga go for Belcher. He had FoW. But I have Autumn's Veil. But he has, yeah... another FoW. We play draw go for a bit and he eventually plays Lavamancer. I go for it again but he has, you guessed it, FoW number 4. So I coulda beat 3 FoW's... but not 4. God Damn. There was a Spell Pierce in there too, and a Daze that I could pay for but yeah tough to beat the nuts. He also had a Flusterstorm ontop of his deck so I couldn't have waited a turn on my last attempt cause I was playing a D4, not a Belcher.
0-2 (record 2-1)

R4 BUG Tempo
G1 - I scouted him and somebody told him what I was playing, but I think I can get there if I land enough perpetuals in game 1. I lead with Belcher. He has Spell Pierce, which I pay for with a Petal and an ESG that he didn't see. But he has a Daze too. And he won the die roll obviously so yeah... I try to recover but he draws a FoW and Hymns my hand twice.
+15 board
- Out Culling Package, PIF, Muse, ToA
G2 - I land an early Carpet which he sand bags. I play a Veil when I can't really go off yet but obviously he doesn't know what I have in hand so he cracks some fetches to counter it. That turns on my Carpet and I can start grinding with D4's. I play 4 which he counters until I can eventually land Belcher with all 3 land out and get the kill.
G3 - I have 2 Drit, 2 Crit, Carpet, Cruel Bargain, Mirri's Guile. Just need an initial to do something nuts. He leads with Thoughtseize and takes out my Cruel Bargain. I topdeck ESG like a boss and land Carpet. I stay on 2 mana from it for basically the whole game but don't see any Land Grants or lands. He Hymns me hitting both Cabals. Then he Hymns me again a few turns later and I lose my business spells. I manage to land a Chrome Mox and start grinding with D4s as he has no creatures. He counters 2 of them and then lands a Goyf. While I'm sculpting next turn he lands another Goyf. I resolve a D4 and sit on 9 cards, play a bunch of stuff including a Belcher, which gets countered. I also land Mirri's Guile with an IT in hand so I figure if I can find a business spell within the top 3 cards then I can play 2 business spells in one turn and beat a FoW, that or a protection spell. Sure enough a D4 was the 4th card, something I needed. I get Cabal Ritual instead. Then he Wastes his own land like a boss but I have Dark Ritual + Cabal Ritual, so I use those and LED + IT into Belcher but there's 3 lands in the deck. Taiga is 2 from the top even though he's at like 12 life from his fetches and such. 4 cards deeper and I might have had that one.
1-2 (record 2-2)

R5 UW Miracles
G1 - I knew everything that he was playing from watching a few of his matches and I'm pretty confident that he is way too slow to grind me out. Squadron Hawks and equipment aren't going to get there against me right? Well G1 I have a lot of perpetuals, 3 lands and a Chrome Mox or two. He FoW's a bunch of my spells, like 2 FoWs, and 2 Spell Pierce. I managed to land a Belcher without the activation until the following turn but the turn before he had topdecked his only copy of Entreat the Angels.. which I died to having played a D4.
+15 board
- Out Culling Package, PIF, Muse, ToA
G2 - I'm grinding him out with Carpet because he has like 3 Islands in play. He counters a bunch of my spells and sure enough I again lose to his topdecked Entreat the Angels in the same way, Belcher activation on the next turn for lethal. Probably could have won this round if he hadn't gotten so lucky with Entreat both games. Then I would have topped 8 at the very least.
0-2 (record 2-3)

So overall. I lose R3 to a whiff in one game and the nuts in the second. Lost R4 to boarding out PIF/ToA which I should have kept in for the grind against him, my mistake, and lost both games in R5 to the only card that could have actually put a clock on me. I got good hands all day and was pretty satisfied with how the deck performed. No shitty D4s, every game was really close. I look forward to the next big one, which I'll actually go to sleep at a decent time for and prepare for a few hours before I attend.

[The Spanish Tunnel King]

@Andy. Great that you picked up the deck. It is a whole barrel of laughs :). Just to re-iterate what some of the guys were saying. Your list doesnt look optimised for speed with the 4 belchers. I would defo cut it to 1 as a tutor target (I cant remember my exact list, but im sure you could find a better list somewhere here... Maybe try manamorphose to help speed it up a bit/smooth out the draw4s just while you learn [Dont have your list on screen, sorry if you already have them in :)]). Also - You mention that you dont like drawing4 with none floating / pact used. Sometimes this is necessary, and its one of the strengths of this version is that you can do that (rather than the LG version, which struggles if you float 0 in...). I seem to remember that hand had the slithermuse in, so its possible its still a mull... Talking of which, I would try out the Land Grant version first. Its a bit more forgiving, even if the percentages are lower. And if you like the deck, persevere :). You honestly can get the turn ones maybe even pushing 70%. Its just hard (unlike belcher :/).

The Spanish Tunnel King :)

PS Also you should believe in the heart of the cards

[Vacrix]

Agreed. The Tendrils heavy lists probably have a better chance of being consistently fast. Then again, Belcher in the opener is kinda boss. I prefer to play 4 Belcher in the maindeck just because it fucking amazing when you board in 15 for the grind game. I put my matchup against U.dec at least 50% every time. Even BUG control, which runs countermagic, discard, walkers, and ways to disrupt your grind plan like Deed and Pulse can't do better than 50/50 pre-board. Without Counterbalance, I'd say post-board I have like a 70% against them, and with counterbalance it drops to like 50% cause you can usually play through Counterbalance if they don't drop it on turn 2. Perpetual resources allow you to hardcast business at 3 and 4. For the record, I play against BUG Control more than any other deck cause my friend has it I've probably played over 200 games in that past few months and those numbers are fairly accurate. I usually go 3/3 pre-board games and 4-2/5-1 post-board until I recommended he runs Tops and post-board CB, in which case post-board dropped to like 3-3. I actually played him today 4-3 pre-board 3-4 post-board, and thats someone who plays against this deck all the time and knows how to play against me. Against RUG/UR Tempo I'd say its like 50-60% post-board, and it really depends on the build in the pre-board. Some UR Tempo run only 3 FoW which is like auto-50/50. Also, I actually like to grind in game 1 with Chrome Moxen if possible. Sometimes you just get that boss opener of x2 Mox and slow roll their ass (easier to keep if you scout them). I play against UR/RUG a lot in the locals and I'm currently like 60/40 against Tempo.

[SupREME-10]

@Vacrix: nice report even if you didn't Top8. You started well with 2-0 for matches; but stuff happens so don't beat yourself up for the losses there after.

In regard to picking up this deck type and just going with it. I agree that you really need to learn if from the ground up and that self play is nice; but is nothing compared to actualy gauntlet playtests etc. My biggest issue has actually been playtesting my SB as when I hit MWS I do get enough Game 1 wins (in turn 1-2) that a few seconds later I am faced with "Player Lost". Thus my Sideboard stratagey is still very weak to say the least, even though I have over 6 months of running this deck now (no events with it either though - sorry).

I don't run the Belcher package at all, I have stuck to the Tendrils-EtW-Gshot ooptions for my win-cons; but I do have 2x Belcher now and am considering going to a Belcher build as my tests have been interresting and good so far.

Thanks for all the discussion guys, and feel free to share you deck lists as even 1-2 card alterations can show me new ways to view the deck and show alternate options.

Cheers -- and has anyone even considered running some Reforge the Soul for a D7 package, not so much to Miracle into it; but as another D7 engine that is.