[Deck] The Rock

[sdematt]

RUG is a matchup where you NEVER board out Library. Filtering for card quality is something you desperately want in this matchup. Even if you're only using it as a Mirri's Guile, that's perfectly fine. You having access to the good cards when you need them is essential.

My board plans for RUG are:

on the play:

-3 Pulse
-1 Garruk
(Loam is already in the main)
-2 Thoughtseize


+2 Choke
+2 Timely
+2 Pernicious Deed

Deed isn't 100% necessary, since I've got 2 Engineered Explosives main, but otherwise, it seems fine. Deed on the draw might be clunky, though.

For your thing, I'd take out all the Pulses and keep the Library. Keep the Pridemage since you need creature density and can win Goyf wars.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

CTT is Canadian Tempo Thresh (Rug Delver). Sorry, it's the old abbreviation/name for the deck. I was a little tired at work last night.

I wouldn't say you're wrong, there's always a reason for doing something. I will however disagree with some of the boarding.

Example: Darkblast - This really only kills 1 creature (Delver) and if you want to kill a flipped one it'll cost you a draw step as well. What if they counter the second one? You just literally used your draw to shrink a creature and make your opponent discard a card. On top of that, you're going to have to spend two turns trying again if you have to kill the creature.

Loam is a similar thing here. I know, you can waste lock someone out of the game but, Choke does the same thing all at once. When they tap a land and it might as well be Stripped (strip mine) what good is destroying it further (you can always assume Daze and/or Submerge)? If you've landed a Choke, you've accomplished what you would've done with loam+waste without sacrificing draw steps.


I'm not trying to knock the differences in the board. I just don't think that they're very good in this match. I'm also convincing myself against inquisition on the play. There is something to not worrying about their hand.

Try this and see how it goes. - Remember to be flexible. No boarding plan is concrete. Playing with with the idea(s) will help you decide what you actually need and what's fluff. Good Luck

Base (Play and Draw):
-3 Thougthseize
-1 Qasali Pridemage (Generic 2/2 bodies don't stop anything)
+2 Thalia, Guardian of Threban
+2 Choke

Play
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Dismember

option 2
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Draw
-1 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Deed
+1 Dismember

Option 2
-2 Maelstrom Pulse
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Timely Reinforcements

Matt's right. You really need to make your topdeck count. Filtering bad draws when possible is needed. Also, if able to, stay off of Forest. Some of their deck we can fight in how we play.

[Qweerios]

I got 2nd in a small GPT losing to Hive Mind twice.


Creatures (14)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Instant/Sorcery (15)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
4 Vindicate

Others (8)
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Chrome Mox
3 Liliana of the Veil

Lands (23)
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Darkblast
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Bojuka Bog


R1-5:
2-0 BUG Control
2-0 Esperblade
2-0 Fauna Maverick
0-2 Hive Mind
2-0 UR Delver

Top 4:
Bye against UR Delver (nobody wants to fly to Atlanta...)
0-2 Hive Mind

Before the tournament I really wanted to make burn matchups as favorable as possible. I do not own a Maze of Ith or any Mox Diamond.

3 Timely is too many, I think a single Finks combined with 2 Timely and 2 Gerrard's Verdict would be ideal against Burn/Sligh matchups. Also, splitting Darkblast and Zealous Persecution(very underrated) is probably best against Maverick and Lingering Souls. Thrun is mostly garbage, Choke all the way.

[comandantenorton83]

What are your feelings about chrome mox?

[damionblackgear]

What are your feelings about chrome mox?

I'm also interested to know how How things worked out with the Chome Mox. Would you rather they have been Diamonds?

-----

Went 2-2 tonight. Played against Esper Fae (2-0), Rifter (0-2), TES (1-2), and CTT (2-0).

I punted the games against Rifter (if you're not familiar, Rifter is an older cycling deck that plays [/cards]Lightning Rift[/cards]). The other games were pretty much expected.

-----

Updated Video's with AVR uploaded today.

[Qweerios]

I think I would rather have Diamonds than Chrome for that particular deck list. Diamonds add any color and give +1/+1 to KotR. Chrome simply makes a nonland card from your hand dissapear, which is dissapointing when lands aren't what you need. However, Chrome does do something that Diamonds do not, they have better opening odds, meaning that they are often better in an opening 7 than a Diamond (and thats often what Moxes are about in Legacy). You have 32+ cards in your deck you can pitch to Chrome versus 20-23 Lands that you may or may not be able to pitch to Diamond in an opener. I could definitely get behind a deck abusing Chrome with a high density of "legendary" or costly, dual-colored cards such as Liliana, Vindicate, KotR, etc.

Then again, I would simply rather do without Mox entirely to be honest. It is still only a land for two cards and potential bad topdecks. Junk can abuse tempo pretty well but often doesn't do it as well as the other decks striving on it.

The primary argument for Diamonds seems to be that they are mana fixers. What ever happened to playing Birds for mana fixing? It is true that they dont quite match the Noble Hierarchs in power but the possibilities are there. We have Liliana and Vindicate on T2 as well as any combination of Thoughtseize/IoK/StP/Wasteland + powerful 2drops availlable, I really think this line of play is more safe and just as explosive. Besides, with SFM, GSZ, KotR, and fetches, junk already has a great prospect for Top abuse and dodging BoP/IoK/TS in the lategame.

PS: I viewed some of your matches and noticed that you opened with your single Bird as often as with your 3 Moxes and drew into your single Maze way more often than any of your 4 Bobs in most of your RUG matches. The Mox openings often caused a missed land drop leading to slight mana screws or the inability to play around Daze/Pierce while the BoP openers did not. I think this is worth taking into consideration when you evaluate your deck's performance against this archetype.

Also, I really liked how you rendered null your opponent's two submerges by getting rid of all of your Forests with KotR before you started swinging with them. Really sneaky!

[sdematt]

The main thing those mana fixers do is allow you to play around Submerge and Daze a bit better. If you're okay with not getting that, then that's fine as well.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Yeah. I was wondering what you had thought about them in relation to Diamond. I hadn't tested them ever and figured I'd at least get another players perspective on them.

----

Birds went the way of the DoDo :) Kidding. Most people who are using Mox tend to use them as quick Ramp. I'm using them as a fixer with a bonus. The missed land drops would've occured regardless of type but, Birds and other mana producers would allow me the extra mana without the land.

The problem I have with them is how fragile they are. Keeping a hand that's land+bird (only 1 land) is typically a risky keep with high payoff. If you turn out to be playing against someone from the old school, you'll lose (Bolt the Bird).

There do seem to be less and less of us from that era though. It may also be Maverick playing Mana-dorks as well (and it typically being a bad idea there) that's training so many bad habits. That being said, it may be time to try more Birds... at least until people relearn old rules.

-Last, I was afraid of how Grislebrand would turn out in not only Reanimator but also Sneak Show. Today I seem to be grinding them out without issue. They still don't seem to be able to deal with us fighting them in multiple locations at once. Anyone experiencing issues against them?

[Qweerios]

Assuming you replace Moxes with Birds, I personally think a 1 land 1 Bird hand is much better than a 1 land 1 Mox hand...

The old Legacy format was all about speed and tempo. Nowadays, it is more about card exchanges and card advantage. Bolting a bird in today's meta when you suspect your opponent of holding 1-2 cards in his hand that are much more bolt-worthy is often a bad move.

I don't have enough experience with Sneak Show + Grislebrand to help you out there. Often the matchup revolves around us having the right disruption/answers for the right situation. It is true that we have many tools against them but time is often an issue. I usually qualify SnT matchups in a category apart just like dredge, and plan sideboard space accordingly. Diabolic Edict is usually my card of choice but Grislebrand is a whole new can of worms.

[damionblackgear]

I'll reply in the morning. I just wanted to leave an example of Tracker at work. HERE.

[sdematt]

Interesting.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I'm gonna start this out by saying I agree that bird land is better than mox land.

Birds fall into the area of progressing your board without looking threatening. The Tracker video I posted the link to shows what happens when someone miss-judges a real threat. The same can be said about Birds.

The problem becomes when they call your bluff and you do only have the Bird+land hand. How often will that come up? I can't say for sure but it will (at least it should) happen more often if they see you're running more than one. So, I'd say it's a fine plan as long as not everyone adapts it. Which is more helpful? I couldn't tell you.

Also, the Bird + land ahnd is much more tempting to keep. Bad keeps lose the game.

[Qweerios]

I couldn't agree more, bad keeps will make you lose. However, that's a judgement call. By replacing Moxes with Birds you aren't changing your odds of having a 1 lander, you're just making 1 landers a possible keep. That's another argument in favor of Birds since it gives you additional options that you didn't have with Mox. I don't think it is possible to argue Mox in favor of Birds on any other basis than tempo and price tags.

[Julian23]

One should always be reminded, that unlike Chrome Mox, Mox Diamond does not replace a land in a decklist. Therefore, a hand w/ 1 Land + 1 Mox Diamond is equal to any other 1 land hand. Adding a Bird to a 1-land-hand of course improves it.

[sdematt]

Julian, we think so much alike, why do you not post more in the threads I post in? :P

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

I couldn't agree more, bad keeps will make you lose. However, that's a judgement call. By replacing Moxes with Birds you aren't changing your odds of having a 1 lander, you're just making 1 landers a possible keep. That's another argument in favor of Birds since it gives you additional options that you didn't have with Mox. I don't think it is possible to argue Mox in favor of Birds on any other basis than tempo and price tags.

We are seeing eye to eye on everything except 1 thing. It's the one other thing that you can put Mox over Bird. It's also the thing that turns me away from 3-4 Birds. Vulnerability. Birds being a 0/1 creature makes it extremely vulnerable.

[sdematt]

I'll agree with that. forked Bolt sucks.

-Matt

[Elminister]

In what match-ups does Liliana shine? Against what decks do you board her out? I would like to test with 1-2, but that is simply because other people are playing her. I could cut 1 Knight and 1 Deed from my main.

My limited experience with her hasn't been great. Perhaps my decklist is such that it can't take advantage of her, but there's rarely any card in my hand I would like to discard unless I'm already winning. In which case she is a win-more card.

[AggroSteve]

your list has to be tuned a bit to abuse liliana, for example loam is one of the best examples to do so, dark confidant as well, basically every cardadvantageengine works in her favor, and actually, depending on the list obviously, we have a lot to discard for her +1 ability, our own discard will not matter at a certian point of the game, or excess lands you do not need are the best calls

liliana is quite strong if the list is tuned in her favor, but never ever throw her in a list that is not really able to use her properly, in this case she would more or less be an expensive diabolic edict, which depending on situation is still fine, but she would not be used to her maximum value

i used her in a mox-build with 1-2 loams and she was quite good together with hymn and thoughtseize, but i moved away from her because she is a very controllish card, and she did not suite my playstyle that much (still using the loams btw, they are awesome)

[sdematt]

Loam is great against the meta with Mana denial. It's been superb as a one-of, and if I had room, I'd add a second.

-Matt