I do not think I need a creature in Kozilek's spot. I added a tundra instead to solidify the manabase and make it more versatile. Coiling oracle seems like the weakest card maindeck, but it does help fill the curve and is blue for FOW. Raven familiar might be better. Coiling oracle has been awkward with ancient tomb on more than one occasion.
Harmonic Sliver has been useful in the board and I believe has earned a spot. The cards I have not used as wish targets are Kataki and Canonist, but I haven't faced affinity or storm where they would be aces. here is my current list...
// Lands
4 [JGC] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Tundra
2 [TE] Ancient Tomb
2 [ISD] Forest (1)
1 [ARC] Island (1)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Birds of Paradise
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
4 [ARE] Coiling Oracle
4 [DIS] Court Hussar
2 [SC] Fierce Empath
2 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
3 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
// Spells
3 [JGC] Living Wish
4 [MM] Food Chain
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [FD] Eternal Witness
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [MM] Misdirection
SB: 1 [AVR] Misthollow Griffin
SB: 1 [RAV] Drift of Phantasms
SB: 2 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 [SOK] Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 1 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [SOK] Maga, Traitor to Mortals
SB: 1 [TSP] Harmonic Sliver
SB: 1 [LRW] AEthersnipe
Another solid sideboard with target is The Tabernacle at Pendrell Veil. It's very good against Affinity, Elves, Goblins, Tokens. No more Teeg? Might be worth it for match ups like MUD or other match ups that want to cast big things. I still think the sideboard is a little redundant with the main deck. I don't think we need both Emrakul and Maga in the board, probably Emrakul is enough.
Eternal Witness, while nice, may be too 'cute.' If we have 5 mana up, it would be very nice to Wish, cast, and then cast the (presumably) returned Food Chain the following turn. However, with fewer than 5 mana, Living Wish->Eternal->cast returned card is just too slow (3 turns). Thoughts?
I need to test with this deck. I view counterspells, followed by spot removal as our greatest threats in the current environment. Is Autumn's Veil worth a spot in the sideboard (primarily for counterspells, but also works against black targeted removal (although my primary concern is W removal)). Also, Spell Pierce might be worth it.
Against what decks are you play testing?
I consider playing Ponder over Living Wish (-3 Living Wish, -1 Land, +4 Ponder), which would effect the sideboard.
EDIT: To clarify on Teeg, I think he may be too slow against combo (assuming he will be found with the Living Wish package), but he has uses versus other decks.
What do you think about a GSZ package in this deck? It would be good to help build our mana base (turn 1 for Dryad Arbor, turn 2 for NH/BoP, Turn 3 for Oracle) and also allows us to run a toolbox package (Teeg, Pridemage, Eternal Witness, Vexing Shusher, Sylvan Safekeeper), but it is a dead draw once we start to go off. Thoughts?
Tabernacle is a good idea I has not thought of. Witness has been nice for me in long games where I had wished more than once. I needed another aethersnipe in one game and had already wished for one. You may be right on only needing one win condition. I have wished for maga vs multiple ensnaring bridges. I have wished for emrakul with multiple creatures in play and food chain, but not infinite mana.
I don't know if I would want GSZ. I don't think there is room for a tutor package main and the creatures we really want to tutor aren't green. I would go eladamri's call if I wanted to that route.
I have been playing vs team America, nic fit, rug delver, and maverick.
Sounds like you've been playing against a pretty good segment of the current top tier decks. How do we fare against UW Terminus?
Of the match ups you play, what are the percentages?
I imagine Team America would be the hardest.
I am not doing big sample sizes of games and they are on mws, but none of the matchups felt horrible. I think the surprise factor of the deck has something to do with it. People are aware the combo exists, but I bet a lot of them put me on natural order bant or something game one.
Team america is the hardest of those matches. the discard isn't to bad with all the redundancy in our deck. The LD wasn't too bad either, but I was glad to have 8 mana dorks and basics to fetch. Stifle has a lot of targets in my deck between fetches, food chain, empath, etc. I played around daze and spell pierce, put on pressure with little guys, and was able to bounce tombstalker. This is the matchup where I was glad to be able to grab eternal witness from the board.
Yes, I could see Eternal Witness being very helpful against an attrition war with BUG Control.
You make a very good point about the "surprise" factor. People most likely put us on NO Bant or Zero-Flashless Hulk, not Food Chain. Furthermore, even after people put us on Food Chain, the "unknown" factor makes it more likely they will misplay against us (Drew Levin's article didn't help this any). Do they focus on the combo? Do they bring in enchantment hate or counterspells or creature removal? If they focus too much on the Food Chain combo (with Krosan Grip or Spell Pierce), we can always switch into beatdown mode. A transformational sideboard could go even further in this direction, blanking Enchantment hate all together.
I think I am going to fit Sylvan Library somewhere in my 75 (probably 1 maindeck, 1 sb with a plan of bringing it in against slower/control decks and paying a few life to gain card advantage).
I've been playing a Food Chain Griffin combo since a bit before GP Minneapolis. It's pretty fun to pilot and that's the main reason I continue to toy with it. I moneyed at a legacy event last night, beating RUG Delver, Maverick and a fun Grove/Rifter brew.
Here's my list (61), which I'll continue to do some tweaking to. I may write a full fledged article about it sometime soon, but who knows.
3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Wall of Roots
2 Fierce Empath
2 Emrakul
4 Food Chain
2 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Show and Tell
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
3 Worldly Tutor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb
Manipulate Fate is probably the most fun card to play. Ever.
The Fierce Empath/Emrakul/Show & Tell numbers need to be tweaked a bit, bit I prefer to win without Show & Telling most matchups for the sake of fun. I was running 3 Emrakul, but I took one out for another Sylvan Library because that card is just bonkers.
I know that I do want another Fierce Empath target to grab, perhaps one that can take care of pesky permanents. Thoughts?
Thoughts? This isn't supposed to be the BEST WAY TO EMRAKUL OMG, because Sneak & Show already does that, but this has been pretty fun and consistent. I've thought about playing a higher creature count, similar to the other lists posted here, but I've honestly never tested them. I brewed this and have been having fun ever since.
If you want an empath target that can deal with pesky permanents, aethersnipe is the droid you are looking for.
Ah, you're absolutely right! For some reason I glossed over this card, even though it's in the other lists. :)Originally Posted by cb4
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And I think that Raven Familiar is definitely worth considering over the Libraries and some Ponders. Anywho, I'll do some more thinking on the deck without just posting it here. :)
I really enjoy the Manipulate Fates, though.
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Yes, Manipulate Fate seems very solid (I had to look it up :)). Love the synergy with Misthollow. Nice find!
Is there any other use for Manipulate Fate other than to tutor for Griffins? Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything else...
It can also pull out excess Manipulate Fates or any other dead draws later in the game, which isn't terrible since it cantrips.
I don't believe it's ever done anything, historically. :) So Griffin is the first time it's actually been helpful. It's basically a draw four and curves nicely into Food Chain. This is the reason no one ever counters it.
Here is the next variation that I'd like to do some testing with... Drift of Phantasms seems like a direct, uncounterable upgrade to Worldly tutor, especially since it can grab you Empaths, Show and Tells, Food Chains and a slew of other great cards:
3 Misthollow Griffin
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Fierce Empath
2 Emrakul
1 Aethersnipe
2 Drift of Phantasms
1 Wall of Roots
2 Raven's Familiar
4 Food Chain
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Show and Tell
3 Ponder
3 Manipulate Fate
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
2 Forest
2 Ancient Tomb
---
I do like the maindeck S&T's, since the card is too good not to play in the same deck as Emrakul. The numbers need a bit of adjusting, though... need to do some more actual testing to figure that out, though.
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Conversely, would it be better to cut the S&T for Misdirections / Chrome Moxes which are more abusive with the Griffin?
I think +4 Coiling Oracle -1 Wall of Roots -3 Manipulate Fate (sorry, don't mean to kill your baby).
Oracle fits nicely in the curve, it works well with Brainstorm/Ponder, it is a blue card which can be pitched to FOW, and it is Food Chain fodder.
I think it's fine to play at least 1 Manipulate Fate. Drawing more of it is pretty bad because its only use is usually to exile Griffins. 2 might also be a good number.
I'm pretty excited to try out this deck in the near future!
obvious Sideboard suggestions: Spell Pierce & Flusterstorm
Back in the day when Wake was DTB in Standard, Man-Fate was great for land-thinning, as well as the random up-the-storm-count-for-Beast-Attack finishing blows.
Now, its an incredible Misthollow tutor + still thins the deck.
I gotta be honest, I've been playing some games with the Vengevine list, and I know inside me that it isn't as good (too reliant on Fauna Shaman) but holy moly does it feel good to haste in a bunch of a Vengevines and beat someone senseless. I'm determined to find a way to make "Intuition for 3 Vengevines" a legitimate play.
I've been underwhelmed with Coiling Oracle in testing... I swapped out a few cards to give it a whirl, and it usually either just cantrips or sometimes (but not always) gets you an extra land in play... And Wall of Roots always gives you extra mana, plus blocks Goyf and Mongeese all day.
Can someone convince me that Oracle is worth playing? :)
And Manipulate fate is too good not to run. I tried cutting it, but the deck then just losing consistency. Three is still the best number, as I almost always want to see at least one every game. Two is *okay*, but it means it's not always drawn... which is a huge bummer.
I try not to get too cute with the Griffin by running Mox and more Misdirections, as it's not always in my hand to make the mana accel with Mox worth it. Manipulate Fate seems to be the best and most reliable and consistent thing to do with Griffin, aside from occasionally having one in hand with Force of Will.
Show and Tell maindeck still seems strong, but only having two Emrakul makes it less good. I am hesitant to cut them, since having our only wincon be Food Chain seems hella risky, but maybe S&T could go down to one copy in order to allow Drift of Phantasms to have options. It is nice just opening up with Em, S&T, land, Ancient Tomb and just winning some games, though.
Anyone have thoughts?
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I can't convince you on coiling oracle and cut them myself. They just don't do enough. This deck isn't like food chain elves where you have a critical mass of cantriping creatures. I am currently testing without living wish to open up more room in the sb to be more controlling after board. Here is what I am currently playing...
4 misty rainforest
4 verdant catacombs
4 tropical island
2 ancient tomb
2 forest
2 island
4 noble hierarch
4 birds of paradise
4 mulldrifter
4 misthollow griffin
2 drift of phantasms
2 fierce empath
2 emrakul
1 maga
1 aethersnipe
4 force of will
4 brainstorm
4 food chain
2 manipulate fate
2 ponder
2 daze
SIDEBOARD
4 spell pierce
2 misdirection
3 tormod's crypt
2 faerie macabre
3 pithing needle
1 krosan grip
After board, I can swap out birds for spell pierces vs combo and control. I have loved manipulate fate as a two of. It feels a bit like like squadran hawk. I have liked mulldrifters better than court hussars.
Interesting thought on the Mulldrifters over Raven's Familiar/Court. Is there any neat interaction with evoke and Food Chain?
And I like your rationality for the Coiling Oracles. They just seem underwhelming and typically feel like fall short of everything the deck is trying to do.
Have you tested Wall of Roots at all? It turns into a Griffin off of Food Chain and blocks many ground-based aggro decks.
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