Originally Posted by Jessenator
I would make 1 small change to your main, -1 Misty Rainforest, +1 Volcanic Island.
I would not run the Pyroclasm. David McDarby said they were no good against RUG. Firespout is an option, but unless you are using a Petal to cast it (and pay G), it will not hit Delver and probably wouldn't kill a Goyf (assuming land, instant, sorcery in the graveyard). It could wipe the board vs. Maverick, assuming no Mother of Runes and Knight didn't get too big. Emrakul could also wipe the board vs. Maverick. So could Submerge.
Currently, I'm running
4 Leyline of Sanctity
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Echoing Truth
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Through the Breach
My meta is very combo heavy, hence the Cliques and Through the Breach (for the mirror).
I'm considering going rogue and cutting the Echoing Truths all together. Why, might you ask, is Water Wizard being so risky? Well, let me tell you.
a) We don't face much hate. Yes, yes, perhaps the meta is shifting. Perhaps we can expect to see more Ensnaring Bridges...
b) We can counter the hate we face. Just don't let them drop it in off a Show and Tell (that will ruin your party), but that's what Through the Breach is for.
c) We can race the hate we face.
Ensnaring Bridge = 3 Drop.
Humility = 4 Drop (w/ WW plus limited deck compatibility).
Peacekeeper = 3 Drop (Owwww, this card hurts - should I run Gut Shot? How about Sudden Shock)?
Liliana = 3 Drop (and activated at sorcery speed).
Jace = 4 Drop (and activated at sorcery speed).
Out of all of these cards, Ensnaring Bridge is the only one that really concerns me because: a) it's colorless and can be run in any deck, and b) it's the most likely card we'll face.
Is it worth it to go 'naked' against permanent based hate in order to improve other match ups?
Second, Leyline of Sanctity has been unimpressive. In general, I've been skeptical of running any Leyline in a deck that can't naturally cast it. Yes, you can shuffle it away with Brainstorm. However, I am not going to mulligan an otherwise good hand to find a Leyline. Perhaps I haven't played against enough BUG decks, the match up in which Leyline really shines, but against Storm, Belcher, and Burn, it's been underwhelming.
Jessenator, regarding your sideboard. What I gathered above is that you expect to face Maverick, UW Control, and the Mirror. Given that prediction, I would make sure your sideboard includes:
3/4 Blood Moon or Pithing Needle (Phillip tested 50+ games and Needle is better vs. Maverick and UW)
2 Through the Breach
2/3 REB/Flusterstorm - I don't think you need to run 2 of each (I don't think you'll have enough slots to take out).
4 Leyline
3 Grafdigger's Cage
The irony of this sideboard, and all S&S sideboards is that we dedicate considerable sideboard space to match ups we don't expect to face (i.e. Leyling for BUG, Junk, Deadguy Ale (heavy discard / creature sac effect decks) and Dredge/Reanimator (I know Dredge is a tough match up, but is it worth 3/4 sideboard slots? Probably yes, but it does get old to dedicate ~25% of our sideboard space to one match up (realizing, GDC is good vs. the Reanimator mu as well (but it is mainly there for Dredge)).
Does anyone else feel like going 'rogue', cutting down on the dedicated discard/edict/graveyard hate and utilizing those slots for match ups we expect to face?
Yeah, Pyroclasm is really bad against Tarmogoyf. There just has to be one non-sorcery in the yard and Goyfs survive Pyroclasm.
I'm thinking of cutting Leyline of Sanctity as well (I've been actually looking at Outwit for something that isn't as horrible to draw outside our opener). I also haven't been seeing many BUG decks. Junk decks that run discard, I've usually been able to beat just either by Forcing / Misdirecting their T1 discard spell or protecting my goodies with Brainstorm. It's just the BUG decks that I think we really need Leylines for (although it may be more necessary if Edict effects start making more of a comeback, but Outwit also hits those too).
So this is my general plan for tomorrow, bu I'll obviously have to make some boarding changes based on what I see.
CREATURES 8
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Griselbrand
SPELLS 29
4 Show and Tell
4 Sneak Attack
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Intuition
ARTIFACTS 4
4 Lotus Petal
LANDS 19
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Mountain
SIDEBOARD :
1 Ancient Tomb
3 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Reb
3 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach
U/x
-2 misdirection, -1 intiuition, -4 lotus petal--> +3 blood moon, +2 blast, +2 through the breach
G/w
-2 flusterstorm, -2 misdirection, -1 lotus petal--> +3 blood moon, +2 through the breach
Combo
-1 petal, -2 preordain --> +3 blood moon
Graveyard decks
--1 petal, -2 flusterstorm, -2 preordain--> +3 relic of progentius,+ 2 echoing truth
rxavage, Thanks for posting your list.
1) What is the extra Ancient Tomb for in the board? It isn't used in any of your sideboarding plans.
2) I like the plan vs. U/x and G/w.
Against a straight U/x list, Blood Moon might be underwhelming, as they run 6-7 basics. You are really only stopping Karakas, which they have no way of fetching (unlike G/w). It also shuts off their fetches, but it hits yours, too. It might be better to leave Misdirection in.
3) Against Combo, I'm not sure Blood Moon is enough. Yes, you could God hand it and get it off Turn 1 or 2, but assuming "normal" land drops, do you really want to tap out turn 3 to play it? Additionally, even if it does hit play, it may be too little, too late. With the amount of artifact mana certain types of combo run, it may be a moot point. Additionally, if you plan to God hand an early Blood Moon, you need to find an island of your own, which may be tough with only 3 in your deck and your fetchlands turned to mountains.
I think I would go -2 Preordain, +2 REB, leaving in the LP for speed.
4) Against graveyard, is Echoing Truth really that good? This is a general question, related to all decks, not just Sneak and Show. I read somewhere (I think in an SCG article) not to bring in Echoing Truth against Dredge because if you have to cast it, you're already losing. The same is true for Wrath of God, etc. Additionally, if the Dredge player is in Zombie token mode, they most likely have Cabal Therapied you at least two times. Assuming they go Cabal Therapy 1, naming X, and then see you have a Echoing Truth, Cabal Therapy 2 will most certainly name Echoing Truth. Since you have to cast the Echoing Truth in response, you will get the Zombie tokens off the first Cabal Therapy, but not the second one (and then they will name another card with the second Cabal Therapy since Echoing Truth is no longer in your hand). However, bouncing the Zombie tokens off of the first Echoing Truth may buy you a few turns.
General question: Is it worth bringing in reactive creature removal vs. Dredge (i.e. Echoing Truth or Wrath of God)? I realize in a white deck with STP (getting waayyyyy off topic here), STP would stay in to stop Ichorid/Putrid Imp/Fattie Grave Troll, but is it a winning play to board in Echoing Truth vs. Zombie tokens?
What's the point of running 4 Relic SB if you're only bringing in 3? I would cut 1-2 Misdirection here too based on the specific strategy.
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
My Legacy stream
My MTG Blog - Work in progress
Now you've helped me decide what I want to cut for the 4th relic and the 3rd echoing truth. To be honest I found myself with 2 extra spaces so I threw in the extra relic and the tomb. I was considering shattering spree instead, there will be a few decks they would be useful against but am unsure if its worth it.
The truths are also there for permanent based hate. I was trying to brainstorm a sideboarding strategy before the tourney tomorrow. I never do that and always end up taking alot of time to think about the previous match , dead cards etc. There's a difference between 4 rounds against soft competition and people competing for playsets of blue duals and 3 byes.
So I've been considering Wipe Away again over Echoing Truth mainly because it deals with Karakas and doesn't get hit by Spell Snare (I love how this deck makes all the Spell Snares in the format a dead card).
Any thoughts? Sure Echoing Truth hits zombie tokens, but that seems to be like a rarer situation than the uncounterable benefit you get from Wipe Away?
I've considered the same. Wipe away is also nice because it blanks Mother of Runes. One concern with Wipe Away:
1) UU - Especially if you play to run Blood Moon and Wipeaway simultaneously, UU can be hard to come by.
Spell Snare is a moot point, because any smart pilot is taking that out games 2/3.
Why would you play Relic over Cage? Lemme list some pros/cons here:
Relic:
+ Can trim down graveyards by tapping
+ Can blow up the GY in response to bounce/destroy
- Costs 1 to play and 1 more to activate
Cage:
+ Trims all graveyards by simply being on the battlefield
+ Costs 1 to come in play and no more to activiate
- Can be bounced, before doing some GY-action
If you ask me, the Cage is superior, because of its effecitivness concerning the mana and it's effect on the graveyards. Reanimator + Dredge cannot do ANYTHING when Cage is on the battlefield, whereas for example, the Dredge-man might be dredging further if you have Relic and once you blow the Relic he might just use Memories Journey and youre kind of fucked. Cage is just superior to this one.
Considering the Blood Moon! It's a great card vs BUG and RUG decks, but lacks it's superior strength in the UW/GW MU. I would strongly advise you guys to do some testing with PithingNeedle before taking BloodMoon to a tournament for this MUs. I play 2 Blood Moon in the side but do not board them in against Terminator or Maverick, normally.
Greetings
It's probably too late to change up things tomorrow, I really like the pithing needle idea but I don't think I want to risk putting in something I haven't tested for tomorrow at the open.
Daze has been absolutely a wreckage against RUG Tempo, I really never regret putting them in at all. The REBs / Pyroblasts have been underperforming though. I often cannot fetch up a basic mountain to use it and have to fetch for a Volcanic Island, then gets Wasteland and would be behind. I think Flusterstorm would be a way better choice here. It's amazing in counter wars and especially against RUG / Combo / Control decks.
I think Blood Moon have to go in, I really dislike the card but baiting out a card vs RUG / other decks is just bonkers. And its an absolute blow-out vs other decks. This is one card I would board in vs Maverick though, as Karakas + Maze from a KOTR basically means good game.
Also, this may sound crazy, but I'm going to board out 2 Show and Tells vs Maverick and put in 2 Through the Breach. There has been too many times where I SnT and they show in a KOTR and basically blank me a turn. Through the Breach allows me to hit definitely with a fatty and gain advantage.
Leyline of Sanctity has been very god awful as well. I may even just take those out for more soft counters tomorrow. Echoing Truth is also a candidate that I may take out but the viaibility of that card is just too important in a vast format as Legacy, and it's a good card vs Dredge. Pyroclasm probably will be going out as well.
My sideboard consists of.. (considering)
3 Graffdigger's Cage
3 Blood Moon
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Echoing Truth
2 Through the Breach
1 Misdirection (2 in main, 2 sided).
The real question is that should I be running 2 or 3 Intuitions. and cut a Grisel? I'm probably going to coinflip for that tomorrow.
Good questions, good questions. Please let us know how you do tomorrow...
I agree. I like what you've done with your sideboard. Cutting Leyline opens up room for Blood Moon.
I don't think that's crazy at all and running TtB allows us to remove Show and Tell while keeping the threat density high.
Good for you. I've been debating this decision and should probably just pull the trigger. Leyline is necessary for BUG and unless there is a major meta shift tomorrow, which I doubt there will be, the 4 Leyline slots can probably be used best elsewhere.
Perhaps it's just variance (and lack of sample size), but I haven't had too many Leyline hands I'm happy with. I either end up mulling to Leyline and keeping an otherwise junk hand or keeping a strong hand (without Leyline) and drawing 2 or 3 that I can't cast during the came (and just thinking "What if these where the useful cards (usually Dazes or Lotus Petals) I boarded out?").
Also, if you plan to run Flusterstorm over REB/Pyroblast (which it appears you do, below), you have additional answers to early discard/edicts. I think it's reasonable to replace 2 of the Leyline slots with Flusterstorms.
Yes, yes. The word on the street is that this card is no good. Unless you expect Elves, Affinity, Soul Sisters, or some other 'swarm' type deck, Pyroclasm isn't necessary.
I take it Misdirection should be 2? (It only adds up to 14 otherwise).
Why not 4 Grafdigger's Cage? I think it makes sense to run 4 of anything you'll mull to.
I think the one strength of REB/Pyroblast is that it hits Delver (hence, it alleviates some of the decision not to run Pyroclasm vs. RUG).
When, oh when, do you plan to bring those Misdirections in? It seems like that might be a wasted/under-utilized/redundant slot.
I would go -2 Misdirection, +1 REB, +1 Grafdigger's Cage.
I'm a fan of running more combo pieces, as that's what you need. Usually, you will use your Intuition to find a combo piece, and wouldn't you rather just run that combo piece and go off a turn earlier?
What's your sideboard strategy vs. the following decks?
RUG
Mirror
Combo
Burn
Maverick
UW
Any other decks you expect to see.
It's really important to work through this (if you haven't already) and this will help you answer you question about 2/3 Intuition (one benefit of a 3rd Intuition is that it opens up a sideboard spot most post-board matches).
With a 3rd Intuition and Daze, you may find yourself with much to board out each match. Additionally (especially if you plan to board in up to the full playset of Misdirections), be mindful of your blue count.
If you would post this, I would really appreciate it. I'm working through mine. My current sideboard is:
4 Grafdigger's
4 LoS
2 TtB
2 REB
2 Wipeaway (decided to run that since it hits Karakas and I'm not running Blood Moon)
1 Woodfall Primus (fits into the non-Blood Moon, non-Echoing Truth strategy. Doubles as a 9th monster. Persist is good with Sneak Attack. A lot of the control matches, once they have an Ensnaring Bridge on board, will let you resolve Sneak Attack / Show and Tell, because they save their counter magic to protect their Bridge.
Sneak Attack -> Woodfall Primus (blow up Ensnaring Bridge) -> eot Sneak Attack trigger, followed by persist trigger -> bye, bye Jace and I have a 5/5 monster in play.
If I cut Leyline, I'll probably go +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Vendilion Clique.
I won a local GPT for Gent:
Round 1: 2-0 BUG Control
Round 2: 2-1 GWb Maverick (Game 1: Show and Telled Griselbrand get raced by a Batterskull with an equipped by a BG Sword)
Round 3: 1-2 Dredge (Game 3 mulliganed to 3 for the lost)
Round 4: 2-0 Dredge
Round 5: Draw into Top 8
Quarterfinal: 2-1 Next Level RUG (Game 2 was in late game with light protection)
Semifinal: 2-0 BGW Stoneblade
Final: 2-0 GWU Knight
3 Byes, Gent, ich komme
3 Blood Moon main shined in the developed meta. I will write more after another tournament today
On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
I think the fact that a dredge player gets all his goodies back when taking the cage out is a major downside which puts it into favor of relic, making him have to rebuild its grave.
Relic can also be used against Surgical Extraction. I don't know if this is viable irl, but is has been mentioned in here a couple of times.
I´m a Derek, and Derek's don't run...
Also, what I consider to be the biggest plus to Relic that wasn't mentioned is that it draws you a card when you blow it.
Also, I did some testing against Elf combo yesterday and good lord that matchup is rough. They're so aggro and fast that if we don't have a really fast start, we're usually dead. On top of that, they vomit out permanents so quickly that Emrakul's annihilator sometimes isn't enough and Griselbrand can't race the horde of 3/3+ dudes.
LOL, I played horrible yesterday and I faced 1 control and 6 combo decks 3 of which were elves, I had never played against before, and all of them could hardcast their Emmy somehow every turn after I would drop mine. Played a forgemaster deck and got mind slavered twice and he just drew me cards with griselbrand. I had enough counters to beat to U/w control deck I played against but I misplayed bad. I won't be making the same mistakes next week. Daze I found practically useless. Echoing truth saved my as in 2 matches and pyroclasms are going back in the board.
Sorry to dissappoint you guys, but I got pretty sick this morning and I couldn't make it to the convention center. I've been testing vs some good players and this deck runs extremely smooth w/ no problem (Daze version).
@ Water_Wizard: So about the Sideboard strategy
What's your sideboard strategy vs. the following decks?
My sideboard I settled on (was going to settle on).
4 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Flusterstorm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Blood Moon
2 Through the Breach
2 Echoing Truth
RUG
play: -2 Intuition, -1 Ponder (actually like Preordain as a one of better), -1 Lotus Petal , +3 Blood Moon, +1 Red Elemental Blast.
draw: -1 Intuition, -3 Daze, +2 Red Blasts, +2 Flusterstorm. I don't like Blood Moon on the draw at all.
Mirror
play / draw the same thing. I still keep the Dazes in, the combination of that + Pierce / Flusterstorm is just amazing.
-4 Show and Tell, -1 Lotus Petal, +2 Flusterstorm +1 Blasts +2 Through the Breach
Combo, your dazes probably would go out against most UB or Mono-Blue combo decks. In this game plan I want to go off as soon as possible to prevent them from going off. Since you take more than 1 turn to win but they only need 1. The Flusterstorms REALLY shine in this matchup, it's almost stupid.
-3 Daze, -1 Preordain, +2 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Blasts
Burn
Pretty bad matchup for you, this is where Leyline would shine. But screw that card! The Dazes I like to put in on the play or draw, they want to jam in as much damage as possible. Most burn players wont' or shouldn't play around Daze. Misdirection here is pretty good for sure. FoWs are pretty bad, you want counters that doesn't mess w/ your attrition.
-2 Force of Will, +2 Flusterstorm.
Maverick, be careful of their Chokes, some Maverick players may side in. Cards to look out for are the 2nd Gaddock Teeg, and 2-3 Chokes. I sided out the Spell Pierce but please be careful.
play: -2 Spell Pierce, -1 Intuition, -2 Show and Tell, -2 Misdirection, +3 Blood Moon, +2 Through the Breach, +2 Echoing Truth,
draw: (I keep Spell Pierces in on the draw since the Dazes get sided out, I'm a little scared of Choke at times). -3 Daze, -2 Show and Tell, . -2 Misdirection, +2 Through the Breach, +2 Echoing Truth, +3 Blood Moon
UW(b), the miracle match up is just ridiculous. This is a hard one to win.
vs Blade Control (UW): if Esper, Blood Moons are in (less counter spells, more Moons). Dazes are generally bad here period. I like siding in stuff like Through the Breach. Sometime this matchup may be VERY long and you want more business cards to get your fatties on the field due to their strong discard / counter packages.
play: -3 Daze, -1 Ponder, -1 Lotus Petal, -1 Spell Pierce, +2 Flusterstorm, +1 Pyroblast +1 REB, +2 Through the Breach
draw: (I would side the same probably)
UW Miracle: -3 Daze, -2 Lotus Petal, -1 Ponder, +2 Echoing Truth, +2 Flusterstorm +2 REB
These are approximation for each matchup, not 100% what I would do.
Cards to watch out for are Humility, Ensnaring Bridge and stuff like Meekstone.
Jessenator - Cool, cool. Thanks. It's amazing how (as you mention at the bottom of your article) there is flexibility in how we sideboard for this deck.
It's interesting against Burn, if you read their thread, they believe this match is unwinable for them.
I'm sorry you're not feeling well. I like your final sideboard.
Against RUG, I think it's always worth bringing in the max number of REB/Pyroblasts to kill a flipped Delver. Facing a turn 1 Delver, turn 2 flip is one of the quickest ways to lose this match-up, so I think it's imperative to have max Delver hate present.
I would also bring in the 2nd Blast vs. the Mirror, probably trimming the Intutions and leaving in all Lotus Petals.
Against Maverick, if they go on the Teeg plan, I'm 2nd guessing boarding out the Show and Tells (since it's our only way under Teeg). Earlier in the forum, people advocate going "all-in" with Show and Tell (basically, show me a KotR or else). If we are S&Ting Griselbrand into play, we can still draw 7/14 and almost certainly set up a kill within the next 1-2 turns.
It'll be interesting to see the decklists that post today...
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
