Adapting to Griselbrand-Show and Tell Decks

[Einherjer]

When you beat SneakAttack with Stoneforge - Email me.

[joemauer]

Finding 75 cards that beat everything. The obvious solution is play 240 and play everything.

Time to start tuning my battle of the wits deck for the current meta.

Opponent plays Show and Tell, I lay down Battle of the Wits for an auto win!

[Worldslayer]

When you beat SneakAttack with Stoneforge - Email me.

Shouldn't really matter what your color combination on the offensive side of the deck is - you're winning off of the blue part. Stoneforge is probably less good in the matchup than something like RUG, but if you're declaring it nearly unwinnable either you're running not enough of or the wrong counterspell package, or misevaluating what you're doing or, if you're the sneak deck, then they are.
Especially postboard, i'm not sure how sneakshow ever beats flusterstorms, snapcasters, and some way to stop a sneak attack. It almost doesn't matter what u/w's clock is as long as it's 4+ damage, because they shouldn't ever be resolving a spell passed t1 show and tell -> force backup, which any noncombo deck in the format probably can't beat and even combo's going to struggle with on the draw.




@joemauer: if you do that, take a picture and post it here. We'll love you forever.

[Pippin]

This is all from the perspective of beating the spells that cheat fatties into play. There is also the option of stopping combat altogether:

• Peacekeeper
• Humility
• Ensnaring Bridge
• Elephant Grass !!!
• Propaganda / Ghostly Prison

These are vulnerable to permanent hate/bounce, but if you're playing with protection that shouldn't be too bad.

Not sure if this has already been covered, but out of those options - only Humility is the one that could work. Everything else allows Griselbrand to draw 14 cards and get the necessary bounce + counter backup.

[KevinTrudeau]

@joemauer: if you do that, take a picture and post it here. We'll love you forever.

Show and Tell-> opposing Battle of Wits happened at an SCG Open a while back, actually. I don't remember which one it was, but I'm sure you can find it very easily if you look it up.

[Koby]

Not sure if this has already been covered, but out of those options - only Humility is the one that could work. Everything else allows Griselbrand to draw 14 cards and get the necessary bounce + counter backup.

I'm not doubting that case. Right now, none of these have been seeing play which makes Sneak Show cake-walk over the metagame. The only consideration from Sneak Show is a cursory 3x Bounce spell against possibility of Humility.

[xfxf]

First of all I don't think anyone is trying to find the 75 which beats everything. Since an above average strategy recently started climbing up the tiers with a new set, it's fun to discuss strategies to beat it. That's why we play the game right?

As for beating Show and Tell on the stack, I don't think it's the most viable way. Because most of the time the deck will have a single counter and even if you beat it with your double counter hand it can cast another enabler next turn and end it right there. It's not like the combo turn of High Tide, when you disrupt the killing blow it's very hard for them to muster enough resources to pull it off again. But Sneak & Show just needs 1 card to attempt to "go off".

I think that's why classic control decks aren't doing well against it. Sitting tight for a while and winning a single counter war isn't enough. You have to be beating the deck meanwhile.

Also about the blue complaints which I read along the comments. Sneak&Show players themselves say that Maverick is scarier than RUG yet you guys still complain about Brainstorm. There's also the MUD. Don't know what to say honestly..

[catmint]

Been playing Sneak & Show since Griselbrand is out a ton and I can safely say most of the people are wrong thinking that "blue" (aka counterspells) is the solution to beat Sneak & Show. Sneak has way too many effective ways to counter back.

Here is the positioning of the top tiers.

- RUG is a slight dog and cannot adapt easily. Playskill is key: Fast damage + mana disrupt/countering cantrips - do usually not wait for the "big counterwar".

- Maverick puts up a very good fight with the current 75. Sneak&Show can hate on that very well, but also Maverick can adapt/increase the hate.

- UW is best positioned to hate out sneak&show. Canonist blanks 100% of Sneaks protection + Oblivion Ring, E. Tutor, Terminus, Pithing Needle, Vendilion Clique, Jace,...

Decks that are well positioned against Sneak&Show but struggle in general:

- Team America (obviously)

- counter top thopters (ensnaring bridge & Humility)

- Elves

Sneak&Show is aware of a bad Dredge & Reanimator MU and packs a lot of hate to make the overall matchup positive.

[Gheizen64]

If only runeflare trap costed 0 for its trap cost and were uncounterable...

[Koby]

If only runeflare trap costed 0 for its trap cost and were uncounterable...

Funny you mention... I was thinking that this card would be awful to play against with the Sneak Show deck. Until you remember that most Sneak Show lists still run Misdirection, and Runeflare Trap is targeted.

[aaronm678]

Shouldn't really matter what your color combination on the offensive side of the deck is - you're winning off of the blue part. Stoneforge is probably less good in the matchup than something like RUG, but if you're declaring it nearly unwinnable either you're running not enough of or the wrong counterspell package, or misevaluating what you're doing or, if you're the sneak deck, then they are.
Especially postboard, i'm not sure how sneakshow ever beats flusterstorms, snapcasters, and some way to stop a sneak attack. It almost doesn't matter what u/w's clock is as long as it's 4+ damage, because they shouldn't ever be resolving a spell passed t1 show and tell -> force backup, which any noncombo deck in the format probably can't beat and even combo's going to struggle with on the draw.




@joemauer: if you do that, take a picture and post it here. We'll love you forever.

You're definitely living in magic Christmasland here - I'm not saying the matchup is impossible, but U/W has such a slow clock that it's not that difficult for them to overload your counter magic - sneak/show runs a lot more hand sculpting than UW, and they can typically just sit there for 5 turns and find the perfect 8 cards.

[CorpT]

Playing Sword of Fire and Ice can really speed up your clock.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Maverick can adapt to beat Show and Tell if that is a problem. The deck could easily go back to the E Tutor plan and just Tutor up Humility (which also is a pretty good plan against HGenesis). Looking at the recent top 8ing Show decks they typically run between 0 and 3 bounce spells with what looks to be an average of between one and two. Teeg shuts off Sneak and Breach and once again we are talking maybe 2ish answers if he lands in their whole deck. Combine that with things like Thalia, Knights->Karakas, Pridemage, and it doesn't seem too bad a matchup.

[damionblackgear]

I think I'm missing something here. Hand disruption has been the best. It's far more threatening to Show and Tell decks. Do you care about it what they play if they don't have a relevant card in hand? Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique are great answers for the card. Who cares if they have Grislebrand in their 75 if he never hits play?

[Pippin]

I think I'm missing something here. Hand disruption has been the best far more threatening to Show and Tell decks. Do you care about it what they play if they don't have a relevant card in hand? Thoughtseize and Vendilion Clique are great answers for the card. Who cares if they have Grislebrand in their 75 if he never hits play?

This is my experience as well. Discard works best, and if it's coupled with a clock it's often enough.

As for this:

Maverick can adapt to beat Show and Tell if that is a problem. The deck could easily go back to the E Tutor plan and just Tutor up Humility (which also is a pretty good plan against HGenesis). Looking at the recent top 8ing Show decks they typically run between 0 and 3 bounce spells with what looks to be an average of between one and two. Teeg shuts off Sneak and Breach and once again we are talking maybe 2ish answers if he lands in their whole deck. Combine that with things like Thalia, Knights->Karakas, Pridemage, and it doesn't seem too bad a matchup.

That may have been the case before Griselbrand, but with him in the spotlight everything has changed. Knight + Karakas is suddenly only a fog effect, and can't do anything against draw 14. Teeg shuts of Sneak Attack, but doesn't stop Show and Tell into Sneak Attack. 1 Humility is nothing really (and can be bounced), especially if it's being fetched by E. Tutor since then Sneak Tell player can just play around it by not playing Show and Tell, and forcing it if they try to harcast it.
Best bet is something like Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker AND Karakas being available at the same time, since either of those alone won't do the job like they are supposed to.

[catmint]

You know what KoR can do against draw 14. Go to the attack step. Sneak has to basically win the next turn. Sure possible drawing sneak attack & Emrakul and having 3RR. But Maverick can interact very well: Wasteland and especially Thalia (blanking lotus petal) can make the difference.

[Pippin]

You know what KoR can do against draw 14. Go to the attack step. Sneak has to basically win the next turn. Sure possible drawing sneak attack & Emrakul and having 3RR. But Maverick can interact very well: Wasteland and especially Thalia (blanking lotus petal) can make the difference.

Aren't you missing something? Sneak Attack player has a Griselbrand at that point in play. Knight can't attack through it, so it's only mission is to fetch Karakas in hope Sneaky player will miss in his draw 14. Due to sol lands and Lotus Petals it's very realistic that Sneak Attack player will just one-shot Maverick player the following turn. Something like McDarby did a few weeks back against Rock player on camera.

[menace13]

Elves isn't really good against Sneak. They cant disrupt Sneak and have to resolve Glimpse on around turn 3 in order to win. They cant interact with Emmy or Grisel in any way once they hit the board(few things can, but Elves is all blanks unless they combo out before Sneak).

Humility/Bridge.deck is only a problem if you dont have bounce and try going off with SnT.

Dredge, ANT and anything with 3 Jaces, 4 KotR, 3 Cliques, 3 Pierce main is hard to win through.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That may have been the case before Griselbrand, but with him in the spotlight everything has changed. Knight + Karakas is suddenly only a fog effect, and can't do anything against draw 14. Teeg shuts of Sneak Attack, but doesn't stop Show and Tell into Sneak Attack. 1 Humility is nothing really (and can be bounced), especially if it's being fetched by E. Tutor since then Sneak Tell player can just play around it by not playing Show and Tell, and forcing it if they try to harcast it.
Best bet is something like Pithing Needle/Phyrexian Revoker AND Karakas being available at the same time, since either of those alone won't do the job like they are supposed to.

On Knight + Karakas - if they are drawing 7 they are also paying 7 life. You are attacking (I hope) in the mean time. It's not a perfect solution, but what is? Every good combo deck can play around disruption. Maverick has quite a few speed bumps and Show and Tell is trying to drive through at 100MPH. Slowing them down enough to win is all you need. They basically have 4 winning configurations (6 with Breach). Show + Emrakul, Show+GBrand, Sneak + Emrakul, Sneak + GBrand. If Knight + Karakas means they can't reliably drop Emrakul off Show that means you cut off 25% of their deck. It also means if you've already gotten through some damage Show + GBrand could put them on a short clock where they have to win next turn.

On Humility + tutor. The idea here being you could Tutor up Humility and just hold it. Check the Show decks that have recently been top 8ing. They normally run 0 to 3 bounce spells. That means if you get Humility in hand they can't rely on Show and Tell at all which cuts off half their combo unless they have bounce. Even then they still have to play Show then bounce your Humility. Don't know if it's the way to go but it's an option. In the mean time you are still dropping hate bears and turning sideways.

There is no silver bullet "I win" card vs. Show and Tell for Maverick. You have to look at the whole picture here. It's not the strength of any individual piece since no card just answers the entire combo. It's the fact that you have all these pieces, you can protect your hate bears from answers with Mother and drop them with Daze protection turn 2 off Noble. You can tutor up Teeg 4 ways, you can play Thalia, you can drop Knight off Show and get Karakas. Yes their are answers to every answer you have, but your answers are cumulative and many. Look how many cards in the deck interact with Sneak/Show and have a non-zero impact. Even Pridemage threatening to blow up a Sneak is relevant if it's not immediately used. It effectively means Sneak costs 5, with Thalia out it gets even better, make that 6.

I feel like Maverick has the tools to fight Sneak/Show. I don't think it's even closed to a lost cause.

[Pippin]

I feel like Maverick has the tools to fight Sneak/Show. I don't think it's even closed to a lost cause.

Of course it's not a lost cause, but the main issue is that before printing of Griselbrand Maverick had atleast 50% matchup against Sneak Attack decks. All thanks to Knight + Karakas interaction. Nowadays that doesn't matter anymore since Griselbrand effectively negates that interactions and enables one-shot kills the following turn.