All B/R update speculation.

[menace13]

SnT is by now means the problem. SnT has no maindeck answers to stuff like Humility or even something stupid like Peacekeeper. Decks just have to adapt. The true problem card with the deck is, like always, Brainstorm. It makes the deck consistent enough because it trades multiple copies of one combo piece for fresh cards. If you take Brainstorm away, the deck will fall to its own draws often enough to make it fair. Pretty much like RUG Delver. They won't become bad decks, but it is really that one cards that makes them blatantly unfair.

No. Delver is the problem

[Einherjer]

No. Delver is the problem

No it's the Tarmogoyf!!!! He is just too strong for 2 mana!!!

[Star|Scream]

I think the 99% joke went over your head.

Although, if you count all magic players, including casual and standard players, I probably am better at Legacy deckbuilding than 99% of the playerbase.

Since you missed the wallstreet joke though, I'm saying that most of the netdeck whiners (not saying that's what you are because I don't know you) suck horribly at adapting and metagaming.

No, I got your joke that hasn't been relevant in about 7 months. I was mainly trolling you, I suppose. I can't change your mind and you won't change my mind, so I'm pretty much done with the argument. I feel it's too strong and you don't. But kudos to you on adapting.

[menace13]

No it's the Tarmogoyf!!!! He is just too strong for 2 mana!!!

No, pretty sure it's the Delver. I mean, 60% match ups across the field. Clearly that is fine with everyone because the deck is "fair" or whatever that word means.

[Einherjer]

No, pretty sure it's the Delver. I mean, 60% match ups across the field. Clearly that is fine with everyone because the deck is "fair" or whatever that word means.

No it might be the Nimble Mongoose? He's overpowered. A 3/3 for G and he can't even be targeted at!!!

[xfxf]

Decks just have to adapt.

Exactly, that's why I started a "How to adjust to Sneak&Show decks" thread recently. Sometimes when innovation is low and some decks are forgotten the format can get into a cul-de-sac. I think there are decks which were not strong a couple months back but can come out of hiding with the current metagame. I'm still expecting the White Stax players with their Chalices and Humilites to come out of hiding and start punishing those RUG and Sneak&Show players (since I don't own the cards to do it myself ) but I believe if the discussion is out there and the people with access to the cards can go "Wait a minute.. I can crush these slackers with this deck..." the format can really shake itself and can get out of the cul-de-sac without bans.

@Koby. I respect you man, I think you are one of the posters who post the most thought out comments and have the best logic behind it and we have previously seen that you are not just theory but you can also play. As far as I understand you are currently on the Sneak&Show plan to crush at the GP. But honestly, what do you think, is the real problem Show and Tell?

[Tao]

No. Delver is the problem

Take Delver away and you axe the deck. Take Brainstorm away and the deck can't do its "stay on 2-3 lands until turn 12" thing as effective anymore.
Take SnT away and you axe the deck. Take Brainstorm away and you remove the ability to shuffle away excess combo pieces as well as making Discard far more effective.

[Koby]

Ban everything. Play Modern. Problem solved.

[Hanni]

Tao, you're also missing the part: if you axe Brainstorm, a lot of Legacy players will quit playing Magic.

[joemauer]

Exactly, that's why I started a "How to adjust to Sneak&Show decks" thread recently. Sometimes when innovation is low and some decks are forgotten the format can get into a cul-de-sac. I think there are decks which were not strong a couple months back but can come out of hiding with the current metagame. I'm still expecting the White Stax players with their Chalices and Humilites to come out of hiding and start punishing those RUG and Sneak&Show players (since I don't own the cards to do it myself ) but I believe if the discussion is out there and the people with access to the cards can go "Wait a minute.. I can crush these slackers with this deck..." the format can really shake itself and can get out of the cul-de-sac without bans.

White Stax is actually bad against RUG delver. White Stax can beat it if it gets the perfect hand, which is the biggest flaw of Stax decks to begin with. A first turn Delver/Mongoose can go all the way against a Stax deck.

Stax isn't particularly good against Sneak and Show either. I mean what can a Stax player do against the deck if it has no humility or oblivion ring in hand? The deck has no manipulation to get either in hand.

There is a reason people aren't picking up Stax decks in droves right now.

[csy]

koby says relax.

[Gheizen64]

Tao, you're also missing the part: if you axe Brainstorm, a lot of Legacy players will quit playing Magic.

Then print an instant speed thoughtseize that can't be responded to. Can i?

[menace13]

White Stax is actually bad against RUG delver. White Stax can beat it if it gets the perfect hand, which is the biggest flaw of Stax decks to begin with. A first turn Delver/Mongoose can go all the way against a Stax deck.

Stax isn't particularly good against Sneak and Show either. I mean what can a Stax player do against the deck if it has no humility or oblivion ring in hand? The deck has no manipulation to get either in hand.

There is a reason people aren't picking up Stax decks in droves right now.

I wish more people could think this way. Manipulating and tutoring is what makes decks good. If you take Bstorm away from Legacy you get a bunch of shitty zoo and stacks(ok maybe Landstill and enchantress are left) decks. Also GSZ will be the best card after.

And it's the fukin Delver, Phil!

[Koby]

Basically everyone is overreacting to a perceived problem that isn't manifested through actual tournament play. Let's stop theory-crafting on what the metagame is doing and instead prepare for actual matchups that you can't beat reliably (i.e., PLAYTEST). Then later decide in a few months if we're had enough of whatever is causing the problem.

TL;DR - STOP BANNING CARDS PREEMPTIVELY!

[Hanni]

I'm down for some instant speed targeted discard. The unbanning of Mind Twist sounds good too.

[GGoober]

Can we ban the DCI? Problem solved.

[Telperion]

What I think needs discussion is the weird psychology behind the call for bannings. I am at loss as to the perception of dominance that people are talking about. There was a single SCG top 8 with 3 Sneak Attack decks. There have probably been 30+ weeks of 3+ maverick or RUG top 8ing in one week. Is everyone seeing 1st-4th being Sneak Attack at their local tournaments every week or something? I don't see how the feeling of losing to a particular deck should be relevant to the banning of cards. Losing to someone who has pointed 7 bolts at your face feels stupid when you perceive that you work harder for your wins, but it doesn't really say anything about the balance of the game.

[DragoFireheart]

Can we ban the DCI? Problem solved.

Unban all non-ante and non-dexterity cards.

[Gheizen64]

I wish more people could think this way. Manipulating and tutoring is what makes decks good. If you take Bstorm away from Legacy you get a bunch of shitty zoo and stacks(ok maybe Landstill and enchantress are left) decks. Also GSZ will be the best card after.

And it's the fukin Delver, Phil!

It's not like without brainstorm Blue is suddendly inconsistent, since it would still have Ponder and Preordain. Plus top is a card, and none of those are legal in modern. The big difference is that they don't empower drasticly combo decks by giving them an anti-discard card that is also amazing at shuffling back the redundant combo pieces (especially relevant in SnT decks, less so in storm). Ponder or Preordain even as instants would be nowhere the level of BS, as they can't screw over discard and they can't shuffle back redundant combo pieces or lands.

[Gheizen64]

What I think needs discussion is the weird psychology behind the call for bannings. I am at loss as to the perception of dominance that people are talking about. There was a single SCG top 8 with 3 Sneak Attack decks. There have probably been 30+ weeks of 3+ maverick or RUG top 8ing in one week. Is everyone seeing 1st-4th being Sneak Attack at their local tournaments every week or something? I don't see how the feeling of losing to a particular deck should be relevant to the banning of cards. Losing to someone who has pointed 7 bolts at your face feels stupid when you perceive that you work harder for your wins, but it doesn't really say anything about the balance of the game.

As always, i'm not asking for bans. I'm just saying my opinions. I think that BS is a problem card, and is almost always behind the dominant strategies of this format, with some spar exceptions here and there, like Maverick (Merfolk was an-anti BS deck, so born from BS too). A card like this, while not perceived as unfair, it is actually one of the main reasons many strategies percieved as "too good" are so.
For example, consider Mental Misstep. I'm of the opinion that without BS, MM would have been probably much less dominant because :
- the best target of MM would have been gone
- the ability to shuffle back MMs in the lategame would have been gone
We all know MM was the banned card (and i would say rightly so in the light of Snapcaster).

Mystical ban?
Mystical was bonkers etc... But imho a Storm deck without brainstorm would have been percieved a lot less "good" and maybe mystical wouldn't have been banned. Reanimator would have been a lot worse and i'm pretty sure it wouldn't have been touched.
IF they'll ever ban SnT or Delver (not that i think they will, SnT because it is nowhere as dominant as strategies usually are before they are nerfed, and Delver because it's a creature and wotc won't axe it period) they will axe decks that would still be good but not as eventually dominant without BS, because BS do all of the things those decks want; it give them protection, the ability to flip delver reliably and the ability to shuffle back redundant combo pieces for missing ones.
Imagine the new Doomsday deck becoming too good? Remove BS and the deck is way less efficient.

In short, i think keeping BS unbanned will lead to:
- a longer in general Banned list, while not right now
- more limited deck design space, aka: less cards being actually played in this format
- an excessive(?) prevalence of the color blue, especially at the expense of black
However banning BS would:
- make a lot(?) of people leave the format because its poster card is gone

I'm for the most card possible being played in this format, and in my opinion BS is an enabler that make a lot of strategies "too good" and consequentially limit both the variety of played decks and the number of cards that could be unbanned.