In a burning wish build, you could go for Call the Skybreaker as your wishboard win-con. It takes 7 mana, but it'll just keep making 5/5's for you and if it gets countered, you can just re-cast it.
Worm Harvest seems like the better card here, due to its lower cost and more flexible color requirement, as well as being good against swarm strategies.Originally Posted by Greenpoe
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The problem with both of these cards is that they require Loam to use efficiently. I feel like something like an X burn spell would work just as well if not better, honestly...but I think that it's largely irrelevant anyway. Scapeshift and Haunting Echoes provide strong enough win conditions off of Burning Wish....with other cards like Tsunami and Cranial Extraction acting functionally as win conditions in some matchups.
Man, the discussions here are so much more refreshing than over at MTGS...
Ive been playing GBw Rector Fit in a few tournaments and love it so far. The list in the previous page w/ Moat was incredibly interesting and the sideboard as well.
The thing I am curious about is why all the love for Sigarda? Obviously she is great in a Moat build, but otherwise I dont see her as having much impact on the board to include over Thrun. Thrun can least always hit the board against blue to hunt down Jace, and he was the sole reason for my wins against UR Delver in my most recent tournament. Sigarda, on the other hand, gets caught up in counter magic and can't stem the bleeding from incoming Goyfs as well as Thrun, who can at least can block and regen.
I've also been testing a bit with Living Death, being an additional sweeper along side Deed that fits with a deck which utilizes Swords as its main removal spell and Ooze to clean out graveyards. This goes along well with the newly included Liliana (over garruk relentless) who finally can discard creatures sometimes...although I still fight with myself between choosing her or Garruk.
Hey Claymore -- welcome to the dark side =) I've occasionally poked my head in the Salvation thread and was quickly reminded of why I never post there (and indeed only really troll the site during spoiler season or when I feel like being disappointed by humanity).
I think that a lot of people do have an unnecessary hard-on for Sigarda, but it's not quite as bad as you have it. For one, she tends to come down late enough that your opponents generally either should be out of countermagic, or you should at least have a Therapy you can flashback before dropping her. But in Moatless builds, I definitely agree that she's not as good as what everyone credits her as being ... just like Thrun is awful in my build =)
I remember seeing that you were experimenting with Living Death and was very intrigued -- would you care to share your list? Obv. it's going to be quite a bit different from mine...I love studying the various differences between lists within the same archetype. It's quite interesting. I have a few thoughts of how I would start building a Living Death version, but I'd rather let you lead the way.
And thanks for the compliment -- I've been working on my white list for just shy of a year so...it's very much my baby.
I feel that the rise of non-targeting kill spells (to deal with things like emrakul/mongoose/other big shrouded beasts in general) make Sigarda a great option to play around edict effects.
I had put down all of my 'fair magic decks' for a while to continue developing my Doomsday build but I'm back on team Nic Fit until I can decide which deck will better suit the meta in Atlanta:
Here is the list I'm currently running for reference, any help would be appreciated --
Beaters:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells/Walkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Recurring Nightmare (not 100% sold on the card yet)
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
I think first and foremost I need to work on the mana a little bit but the spell suite I really enjoy (at least 4 GSZ, 4 Cabal, 3 IoK, 3 Pulse, 3 Swords)
I'd say the flex spots right now are probably the diabolic intent, recurring nightmare, and 1 piece of removal (probably a pulse) - maybe maybe maybe going down to 1 scavenging ooze and replacing it with something else, probably a geist. I'm also considering removing one of the big boy finishers to add more utility. Theoretically I might cut 1 phatty + 1 ooze for 2 strangleroot geists for a bit of early game action.
One last thing I was considering was a split on Swords and and Innocent bloods just to get around shrouded beasts, but Lili has that role for now.
anyway /end rant /comments welcome
I agree with your cuts, and feel innocent bloods or some non-targeted removal will be helpful--especially if you add geists.
I don't think the geists fit that well in this deck. They're resilient, but aren't exactly world beaters. They can quickly and easily get out classed by goyfs and such. I had to play against a few one tournament when I was going against Pod Fit and they did not have enough board prescence to matter mid/late game. Now, against the likes of Planeswalkers they can do some quick damage, but overall I think Nic Fit can afford to put more powerful spells in the deck. Otherwise I do agree with your flex spots.
Ooze feels extremely relevant in this meta, however. He eats spells to counteract Snapcaster, obvious use against dredge, takes down Goyfs (3 goyfs aren't intimidating when they're 1/2's), and can gain life in a pinch.
I do like the rationale of Sigarda counteracting non-targetted removal; that's pretty solid. In my tournaments I've been facing largely blue based decks or combo and once a Pox so I haven't seen sacrifice effects much...but in a black dominated meta I can definitely see how Sigarda would be a clutch play over Thrun.
Here is my current list. Looking at some other lists I think I'm still more of a toolbox GSZ style, so some insight why or if to change that would be appreciated. I haven't taken it to a tournament yet, but seems to run well in testing.
Lands: 22
4x Forest
3x Swamps
3x Plains
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
Creatures: 17
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridgemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Academy Rector
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
Spells: 21
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Living Death
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Innocent Blood
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Choke
1x Curse of Death's Hold/Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Duress
1x Gravepact
I previously ran 1 each of Garruk Relentless, Master of the Wild Hunt, Chord of Calling, and Phyrexian Metamorph but found them largely underwhelming. Garruk and Chord were generally used to fetch Rector to fetch Deed, so I figure Living Death cuts around the middleman. I lost my top 8 match against RUG Thresh because I lacked a sweeper (pulled Chord, which would've been Living Death) so it helps there.
It works great with Ooze and Swords and also gives the deck absurd resiliency, having matches against WB Stoneblade where the deck goes through 2 Liliana Ultimates, looking at lethal on the board, then living death sweeps and gives me Grave Titan, Deranged Hermit, Ooze, and other critters to win the game. I haven't done any changes since to try and make the deck abuse Death, but I feel that would make it too susceptible to grave hate.
Liliana has been put in to try and give the deck some additional tools against control while working well with Living Death, but that could be Garruk just as easily since his sac ability plays just as well. It does open up the play of T1 Therapy -> T2 Witness/therapy flashback, Liliana which sounds solid against combo and control. I still don't feel her discard plays that great with the deck, but she does give the deck additional tools.
Sideboard is largely a mess. Grave Pact was meant to come in against Sneak Show but requires a slight star alignment...but I still like it. It is a game breaker against the Nic Fit mirror however. Future changes are to get in Chains of Mesph. (Thanks to rationale on the previous page or so) and more Leylines.
Won a GPT on Saturday, so I'll have 3 byes going in to Atlanta. Didn't do as hot as Jupiter's GPT today (was battling to try to help a friend also get 3 byes...we failed that mission, unfortunately), but the meta was absolutely bizarre (no t1 decks, at all), so it's whatever. I'll submit a general report tomorrow sometime...now I need to figure out what version I want to play at GP:RUG vs Griselbrand. Although I guess the B/R update is between now and then.
Anybody else thinks Rod of Nin has potential in here?
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Arianrhod, mind sharing the list you played? My guess is you're still running some Rector build but I'm interested to know the exact list. Last time I tried a Rector build I went 0-4 due to excessive mulliganing (2x each game at least... weird ;))
Sure -- I played the White list located here, with a few sideboard tweaks: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post647603
Someone was originally planning on coming with Sneak/Show, but that person ended up being able to go to SCG MA instead, so he went there. Once I found that out, I took out the Humility from my sideboard, and put the 4th Deed in, instead, since the venue traditionally has a fair showing of dredge and one pretty steady affinity player (who also ended up not showing due to MA). I also cut the Curse of Death's Hold (Elesh Norn's slot in that list) for a 2nd Leyline of Sanctity, because there's a few burn decks and storm decks locally, and sometimes random matchups like Deadguy that they can come in for.
For Sunday, expecting a more RUG/S+S meta, I switched back to Humility and Curse...but as I said, there ended up not being a single copy of either deck. Instead, I got my face tore off my Death and Taxes and Elfdrazi, but since my goal was to try to get my friend byes, I was more indifferent about it. It helped that I traded my Moat up for a better condition version that is also signed by the artist, and I picked up Cards Against Humanity =D
My abbreviated matchups:
Saturday: UWR control (w), Dredge (loss - deck failed me g1 4 turns in a row, g2 I Cranial naming Ichorid with Deed in play, he boarded them out...and had 2x Chain of Vapor in hand. awkward.), Gbw Rector mirror (w*), Burn (ID), top 8 -> UW Blade (w). Me, Burn, ANT, and Imperial Painter split the top 4, with me getting the win as the only person going to Atlanta in the top 8.
*The mirror is a local who liked my deck, and started to build his own version of it. He's had it together for all of like two weeks (he might have said two months, but I think he said weeks). That said, he's a bit behind/is having some availability problems/is trying out some different card choices (ie Sylvan Lib over Top). Top really shined in our matchup, though, so I'm guessing he's going to switch that. That all being said, the mirror is a really weird, weird game of magic. It seems like it comes down to just whoever draws better, but I feel like there's a huge amount of skill involved. Extraction effects are big, and whoever lands Phyrexian Arena will probably win if it sticks around for more than a turn or two...but protecting it is kind of hard without counters, so it's tricky to know when it's safe....and you need to avoid getting blown out by your opponent's bombs while trying to drop yours. Nightmare is also pretty boss in the mirror.
Sunday: Death and Taxes (blerg, loss), High Tide (w), Elfdrazi (loss, got godhanded g3. like turn 3 space monster godhand.), TES (no idea. I scooped him to help out my friend's breakers, which worked, but not enough to get my friend into the cut. shitty.)
If there's any questions or you want me to elaborate anything specifically, by all means, let me know.
I have a few write ups from past tournaments on MTGS, is there a place to post them here? They're a bit long since I write too much, haha. Were with older builds, but could be useful.
^How was Garruk for you during the tournaments? And did you ever use Liliana?
I'd say just post them in here, personally, since they're probably too old for the full tournament report thread.
My thoughts on Garruk Relentless are that he is amazing in exactly the Rector version of the deck, because he's another out for Rector, and his wolfblossom tends to be better since Rector tends to produce less pressure overall. But, I also would assert that to truly take advantage of Garruk Relentless, you need to run 3 of him at minimum (although I think that 4 would clog a lot). That way you can use him as a straight removal spell and not feel guilty about it, as well as having additional copies that you can use for advantage later. Also, flipped Garruk is one of the most powerful things this deck is capable of, as it provides both tutor and sac outlet in one engine, while still being able to build board presence. Big fan of him in the white/rector version -only-. I think that the slots taken up by him are better served with other cards for other versions.
I used 2x Liliana of the Veil a long ass time ago, like November or December. I didn't like them then, and although they're probably actually really good right now vs Sneak/Show, I still don't like them for the deck overall. They force you to fetch double black early, and they are the only card to do so since most versions of the deck have now moved away from Hymn finally. They're also really annoying to use because you rarely want to discard anything yourself. I'm a big fan of her when you're breaking her symmetry, as you're trying to do with Living Death, or as people have done with Punishing Fire, Loam, whatever. But if you can't +1 her whenever you want without causing yourself problems, she seems pretty bad.
Been toying around a lot recently with various builds of the deck and I'm 100% sold on the white splash but uncertain as to which direction to take it. I really enjoy abusing Rector/deed/nightmare/p. arena/etc. but I kind of miss having spots for Plansewalkers Big Boy Garruk Primal Hunter's draw is unbelievable.
I feel like a lot of what this deck does is so explosive that refilling your hand with Garruk after resolving a thrun/sigarda is kind of bonkers.
The list I've been toying around with thus far:
I'll mark what I consider to be a NECESSARY inclusion in the deck with an asterisk
Critters
*2 Scavenging Ooze
*1 Thrun, the Last Troll
*1 Sun Titan
*1 Grave Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
*4 Veteran Explorer
*2 Eternal Witness
*1 Academy Rector
*4 Cabal Therapy
*4 Green Sun's Zenith
*2 Maelstrom Pulse
*3 Inquisition of Kozilek
*3 Pernicious Deed
*1 Recurring Nightmare
*3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Liliana of the Veil
*2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Innocent Blood
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Volrath's Stronghold
So I kind of love Lili right now simply because of the edict effect. I find having one of her is kind of nice because after stabalizing I generally find myself with either a. lands in my hand I have no trouble dropping (or things I can recur with Sun Titan) or b. a creature I need dead.
I'm not 100% sold on the split between 3/2 swords/innocent bloods but it seems good so far.
Sigarda has been great as a GSZ target but could theoretically be replaced. The only other spot that I could consider swapping around would be tossing out 1 piece of removal and/or the phyrexian arena for another Lili + Garruk.
Sigh, too many directions to take the deck and I don't know which one is best against a well developed meta.
Couple issues/thoughts for you, Chikenbok:
-) Where is Phyrexian Tower? This card is pretty much crucial across all builds as a 1-of; but Rector builds probably want 2 because it's another way to get rid of Rector that can't be responded to (sacrifice off of it is a cost, as with Therapy). It also gives you access to 5 mana on turn two. I've gone Explorer -> Tower, sac, Therapy, Rector, Therapy into Arena on t2. Needless to say I won that game. That's kind of the nut high, but even like t2 Sigarda, Zenith for Thrun, Thrun + Top....etc. And Rector lists aren't "just" using it for Explorer -- we can continue to abuse it into the lategame. 9 basics is too many IMO -- 8 should be sufficient. I'd trim a basic for a Tower, at least. If you up the number of Rectors, I might put in a 2nd, probably at the expense of one of the fetches, or the Volrath's...which isn't really that good at all without Primeval Titan (even then, is like plan F).
-) One Rector. For a deck like yours that isn't all-in on her (like mine with Moat/Fetters/etc), I'd recommend two Rectors. That way you have one for power (Nightmare/Arena), and one for answers (Deed).
-) Grave Titan. I'm not sure why you have him starred, as I think he's pretty terrible in the deck. Why do you like him, instead of something like Kokusho (which you're running Nightmare already, and ways to find it)?
-) Where's Fierce Empath? You're running 4 Green Suns, with 10 green creatures....4 of which are Explorers. I'd definitely cut one Zenith for Empath -- both of your 6-drops are non-green, so having a way to find them on demand with Zenith would definitely be a good idea. Empath seems kind of janky until you try it -- I guarantee you'll love him.
-) If you want to trim something for a Garruk PH, I think it's going to be 1x Swords. That gives you 4+2 spot removal, along with Liliana's sac and the 3 deeds. That should be plenty.
-) I'd try to find room for the 3rd Top, because IMO it is really important to have and to have early, to filter away discard when we don't need it, removal vs combo, bombs when we need to win, etc. You can also do tricks with it with Arena to dig much deeper (after resolving Arena, spin Top before draw). Considering the shuffles this deck packs, extra Tops are just cantrips, which isn't completely terrible.
-) What's your board look like? I'm slowly realizing that the sideboard for this deck is enormously important...much more than one might think at first glance.
What do you guys think about Terminate in a Red build? Is it worse than Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict?
Also, is a 1-off Skeletal Scrying still worth it? I thought about cutting the 4th GSZ in my red list for it because I don't play Dryad Arbor anymore.
Terminate seems acceptable, although I'm not sure how good it actually is right now. Perhaps it'd be a good sideboard card.
The Skeletal Scrying seems atrocious right now. Either you don't want to be paying the life (Canadian Thresh), or you won't have the graveyard to support it because the game's over in three or four turns (Sneak/Show). Scrying was awesome in the Stoneblade era, but with that deck having fallen out of favor, we don't really get into many grind fests at the moment.
I actually run 3 Towers because they're so crucial to the deck. It also helps that Towers are a favorite Wasteland target.
Agree on Skeletal Scrying. My main go-to GSZ target lately has been either Ooze or Kitchen Finks (who is sick with Recurring Nightmare and saved me against UR Delver in a tournament) to regain life against RUG and UR Delver...and Burn if I can live long enough.
Thems fightin' words :P. Obviously Kokusho fits Moat Fit, but Grave Titan vs Kokusho comes up a lot in other builds. I prefer Titan because if either one is Plowed or bounced, at the very least you still put two 2/2 tokens on the field, which can be crucial for hunting down Jace or blocking Goose and Goyf until Titan can play again. I do like how Kokusho can get you life in a pinch (since often I'm very low life late in the game), but still he requires a set up. It might be a meta call though, and I can see that nowadays the dragon may be marginally stronger against Show n Tell and RUG Delver (can hamper how much SnT can Griselbrand and block Delvers). On the other hand, Grave Titan just flat out wins games on his own...-) Grave Titan. I'm not sure why you have him starred, as I think he's pretty terrible in the deck. Why do you like him, instead of something like Kokusho (which you're running Nightmare already, and ways to find it)?
I'm finding that Master might have more use mainboard (replacing Hermit in my build) these days since he can hunt down Delvers. He also has the obvious death wolf synergy with Garruk and if you get lucky enough you could snipe Emrakuls and Griselbrands. Not likely, but still an out.
Also want to point out the amazingness of Living Death again. Had a few test matches against BUG Control last night and late game, facing down Jace and Creeping Tarpit at 3 life with Arena out was able to resolve Living Death (he had no counters due to my countered creatures) and bring back...27 power of creatures, among them Qasali Pridemage (kill Arena) and Ooze (eat Pridemage). Would've won the game if I hadn't tapped Phyrexian Tower on my attack so I could sac a creature to gain life and survive the Tarpit counter attack (or if I had Kokusho over Titan) but shows that Death has use in the control match ups.
Not surprised Living Death is testing well, although I don't like that it will force the opponent to bring in graveyard hate. Pretty sure the LD version will look a good bit different than most other versions, and probably use some different synergies. I'm guessing you have a transformational of some degree to take out LD when they bring in gy hate, except for matchups where you just want a sweeper?
Kokusho shouldn't get exiled if you're careful with him -- going back to the importance of Phyrexian Tower, again. I have a lot of respect for Grave Titan, but only in GB lists (although I'm testing him in BUG because he kills really quickly). I feel that in GBW, you can do better. I don't like that his zombies homeboys die to Deed, or EE, or practically anything in the format. Having impact on the board after he leaves play if definitely significant, but IMO if a 6-drop is leaving play, you either did it wrong or your opponent sick-ripped like a champ. Him dying shouldn't even enter in the equation, because they should be out of answers at that point. Once you have them stripped of board presence and out of gas, then you drop your 6-drop. At that point, it doesn't really matter whether it's Kokusho or GT, but I think that even ignoring Moat as a factor, Kokusho is still better because he drains on his way out, and he has better synergy with Nightmare. Also of relevance is that Kokosho doesn't have to attack to win. Corner case here, but if you're locked out under an Ensnaring Bridge or a Solitary Confinement (assuming Pulses and Deeds have been used already or extracted somehow), Kokusho/Nightmare can still win the game, while GT just sits there and looks dumb.
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