All B/R update speculation.

[Star|Scream]

There is a format just like that, its called Modern.

I can't play ALL my pet cards in modern.

I have just as much right to want to play 4 Aether Vial in all my decks as you have to want to play 4x Brainstorm

Vial Legacy decks have been viable in legacy forever as well.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Ok just slowly back away from the ledge. We don't want to do anything too irrational here. If we do lose something like brainstorm, you don't have to do something as extreme as play standard. We have other options like Vintage or EDH. No need to throw your life away.

I guess I could play vintage, but I am not getting back into edh. That's the only format my playgroup is more cutthroat in than Legacy.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

I can't play ALL my pet cards in modern.

I have just as much right to want to play 4 Aether Vial in all my decks as you have to want to play 4x Brainstorm

Vial Legacy decks have been viable in legacy forever as well.

You see there is the difference. I want to win legacy games and have brainstorm in the format (mostly because a format without it would detract from the format). You want to win legacy games with your pet cards. We all have the right to try to win games, we all have the right to play pet cards, we shouldn't have the right to have certain cards be competitive. The ban list shouldn't have to win games for you.

[nedleeds]

People who actually play legacy, like me. I would personally stop playing Legacy, cash out my $13,000 dollars in cards, buy a (good) standard deck, and maybe a new car. And I know I am not alone, we have had this discussion in my play group many times. I can't imagine that we are alone. Also, I love the assertion that all blue players cheat while asking for proof to back up my claim.

So enlighten us all. What exactly is a 'blue player' these days? With Brainstorm perfect 32/32'ing an SCG (after coming close many many times) isn't everyone a 'blue player'. WTF does that term even mean? Isn't everyone just playing magic?

Here I was asking for unbannings but now I think I'd rather have Crutchstorm banned just to see if you and your play group really just sell your ball and go home.

Assuming you are somehow correct at least we'd see an end to supply issues, prices would fall and make a great format accessible to more people. Probably people who are sick of the stalest least interactive format of all Standard. Where people sit around and ramp things onto the board and have no interaction on the stack at all. Oh wait ... that's the format you are going to run to for refuge. That makes a ton of sense. I also love how you would 'buy a deck' ... since the thought of actually making one hasn't crossed your brain. Which dovetails into why you cling to Brainstorm like a dog on a bone, you just can't picture a deck without it because you just haven't played much magic.

No that would make them shitty deck builders not shitty players, learn the fucking difference.

Exactly. You are building 56 card decks right now because there is no compelling reason, besides a chalice on 1 not to play 4 x Brainstorm. It doesn't take a savant deck builder to realize that.

I will give you the point that Brainstorm does take a little variance out of the game, but I mean that's the point isn't it.

Sure, but it's clearly so far and away doing that job that the aggro deck, the combo deck, and the control deck all fucking play it. You know what else reduces variance? Ancestral Recall. Of course you've never played vintage so your perspective is a bit skewed.

If you want a less skill intensive format I would suggest playing another format.

I was waiting for my favorite internet brainstorm elitist phrase to pop up. There it is! "Skill Intensive" ... yes because casting targeted discard isn't skill intensive. Using Liliana isn't. Combat involving 3 Knights a Mother of Runes, 2 uncracked fetchs, hands full of Rangers and Mindcensors, and bolts ... all of that pales to the greatest test of skill man kind has ever conquered ... the mighty fucking Brainstorm. Give me a fucking break. Most of the people who repeat the same tired internet message board 'skill intensive brainstorm' bullshit haven't even taken college level calculus.

[Star|Scream]

I was waiting for my favorite internet brainstorm elitist phrase to pop up. There it is! "Skill Intensive" ... yes because casting targeted discard isn't skill intensive. Using Liliana isn't. Combat involving 3 Knights a Mother of Runes, 2 uncracked fetchs, hands full of Rangers and Mindcensors, and bolts ... all of that pales to the greatest test of skill man kind has ever conquered ... the mighty fucking Brainstorm. Give me a fucking break. Most of the people who repeat the same tired internet message board 'skill intensive brainstorm' bullshit haven't even taken college level calculus.

You, sir, win the thread

[Arianrhod]

Yeah, that was pretty awesome. I personally believe that Brainstorm should never be banned from legacy, because of the "format-defining" property it holds -- not insofar as that it's a really, really good card (frankly, on power-level, it almost certainly -should- be banned). But I'll echo others when I say that 4x Brainstorm IS legacy to me...and I don't play blue decks! I don't think that Wizards will ban Brainstorm, because there was an obvious and direct correlation between banning Brainstorm and Vintage essentially ceasing to exist as a format for several years. If they ever do, I think that we should take it as a sign that Legacy will shortly cease existing as a [Wizards sanctioned] format.

But all of that aside, using the argument that Brainstorm won't get banned because it's a "skill intensive" card is absolutely asinine, and props to Nedleeds for going all-in.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

So enlighten us all. What exactly is a 'blue player' these days? With Brainstorm perfect 32/32'ing an SCG (after coming close many many times) isn't everyone a 'blue player'. WTF does that term even mean? Isn't everyone just playing magic?

Here I was asking for unbannings but now I think I'd rather have Crutchstorm banned just to see if you and your play group really just sell your ball and go home.

What the fuck are you talking about 'blue player', did I even use this phrase anywhere?

Sure, but it's clearly so far and away doing that job that the aggro deck, the combo deck, and the control deck all fucking play it. You know what else reduces variance? Ancestral Recall. Of course you've never played vintage so your perspective is a bit skewed.

Yeah I am sure Ancestral Recall reduces variance, it also generates card advantage something brainstorm does not do. You can't really compare the two on a level playing field. Of course you don't really play legacy so your perspective is a bit skewed. (that last sentence is sarcastic, it is there to show how arrogant your last sentence was. You have NO idea how much vintage I have played.)

I was waiting for my favorite internet brainstorm elitist phrase to pop up. There it is! "Skill Intensive" ... yes because casting targeted discard isn't skill intensive. Using Liliana isn't. Combat involving 3 Knights a Mother of Runes, 2 uncracked fetchs, hands full of Rangers and Mindcensors, and bolts ... all of that pales to the greatest test of skill man kind has ever conquered ... the mighty fucking Brainstorm. Give me a fucking break. Most of the people who repeat the same tired internet message board 'skill intensive brainstorm' bullshit haven't even taken college level calculus.

Sweet bro, you took a quote out of context and responded to it, that is less skill intensive than actually addressing my point. I was explicitly saying variance makes the game less skill intensive, not brainstorm. l2r please.

Edit: A friend of mine just pointed out the part about college calc and I LOLed. Some how that's a metric of intelligence. (Full disclosure - I have a bachelors degree in Comp Sci, so yeah I had to take calc in college)

[nedleeds]

What the fuck are you talking about 'blue player', did I even use this phrase anywhere?

Yes. Actually you did. In the prior post. I quoted you. Are you mad?

assertion that all blue players

I was explicitly saying variance makes the game less skill intensive, not brainstorm. l2r please.

Weighing a situation with variance requires analytic skill. It requires math skills. It requires a look at the game state as it is, what has been done previously and a million other things. L2Think please.

Brainstorm makes everything easier. Not harder. From deck building all the way down to managing resources in the game. Combating discard, evaluating a threat, etc. everything is much much easier with Brainstorm on your team.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yes. Actually you did. In the prior post. I quoted you. Are you mad?

Oh yeah that's from when you made the claim anyone who plays brainstorm is a cheater. And if you play blue you play brainstorm right?

Brainstorm makes everything easier. Not harder. From deck building all the way down to managing resources in the game. Combating discard, evaluating a threat, etc. everything is much much easier with Brainstorm on your team.

This shit is just retarded. Every deck in the format uses cards to combat variance and all of them require skill to play. That should be one of the goals when building a deck, minimize variance.

[Star|Scream]

Yes. Actually you did. In the prior post. I quoted you. Are you mad?





Weighing a situation with variance requires analytic skill. It requires math skills. It requires a look at the game state as it is, what has been done previously and a million other things. L2Think please.

Brainstorm makes everything easier. Not harder. From deck building all the way down to managing resources in the game. Combating discard, evaluating a threat, etc. everything is much much easier with Brainstorm on your team.

I never thought of it this way, but you're right!

[pants]

Oh yeah that's from when you made the claim anyone who plays brainstorm is a cheater. And if you play blue you play brainstorm right?

You don't seem to understand the aspects of the game outside of playing it mechanically. Cards that manipulate the deck are often used to cheat, and no card that manipulates the deck is used more often than Brainstorm. The card is used in conjunction with fetch lands more often than any other card to cheat. On multiple occasions I have seen people perform a complex set of actions at once and use the flurry of activity to draw four from Brainstorm or stack their deck while resolving a fetch land. Perhaps you understand how cards work, and how a card is good, but you don't seem to understand how a format is balanced, and you certainly don't understand higher concepts like how people are able to cheat, which is disquieting, because they are willing and able, and almost certainly have done so against you.

[nedleeds]

Yeah I am sure Ancestral Recall reduces variance, it also generates card advantage something brainstorm does not do. You can't really compare the two on a level playing field.

Yes one is absolutely more powerful, I don't debate that. But they are both restricted in Vintage. You take the infantile view of card advantage and you discount the value of cards when viewed in the context of an active game of magic. This is why brainstorm 8-for-8 SCGs and 12-for-16 GPs. Most cards in magic like any resource in any game have a relative value based on the game state ('situational value'), brainstorm in conjunction with a shuffle effect allows to to ... like no other unbanned card ... exchange cards with little situational value for those with great situational value for so little investment of mana (along with replacing itself ... as it's draw3put3back). The simple example for most traditionally constructed decks is a land. A land has high value in the early turns as you build resources, later in the game it's value diminishes if the board state has developed. STP has little value when staring down a goblin charbelcher on the stack. I'm sure you and your play group understand these concepts well.

Look, if you just like playing with the card and don't want it banned I'm completely fine with that. But don't fight the losing argument that given the current ban list that it doesn't belong there.

If I held the keys, I probably wouldn't ban brainstorm without at least trying some unbannings first. I'd go with something like

- Mind Twist

- Earthcraft (laughable really ... since any Earthcraft combo deck would likely play Brainstorm as it's the best way to get rid of superflous pieces and find the other part of the combo)

- Black Vise

I'd like

- Land Tax (with Vise keeping it in check)

and

- Survival (slow, and with so much gravehate running around)

to get unbanned also, but honestly these two cards in conjunction with brainstorm are probably too much.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

You don't seem to understand the aspects of the game outside of playing it mechanically. Cards that manipulate the deck are often used to cheat, and no card that manipulates the deck is used more often than Brainstorm. The card is used in conjunction with fetch lands more often than any other card to cheat. On multiple occasions I have seen people perform a complex set of actions at once and use the flurry of activity to draw four from Brainstorm or stack their deck while resolving a fetch land. Perhaps you understand how cards work, and how a card is good, but you don't seem to understand how a format is balanced, and you certainly don't understand higher concepts like how people are able to cheat, which is disquieting, because they are willing and able, and almost certainly have done so against you.

Are you fucking kidding me. Of course I know people cheat at this game. I have seen people cheat in all kinds of ways from mulling to seven, to brainstorming four, to fetch tutoring. What I am saying is, I don't think you can claim that everyone who plays brainstorm is a cheater, just like you can't say anyone who uses fetchlands is a cheater, or anyone who mulligans is a cheater.

[nedleeds]

I never thought of it this way, but you're right!

I didn't even get into keep / mulligan decisions. Which when you are playing brainstorm are fucking child's play compared to when you aren't. Keep-able on the draw, one land brainstorm hands are no problem.

[Tammit67]

I didn't even get into keep / mulligan decisions. Which when you are playing brainstorm are fucking child's play compared to when you aren't. Keep-able on the draw, one land brainstorm hands are no problem.

Reduced variance. Maverick does it by having a ton of redundant drops, blue does it with brainstorm.

[colo]

I'm not playing blue decks for the most time, but I really don't want Brainstorm to get the axe. BS can be as much part of the cure as it is part of the disease.

The disease, these days, seems to be Griselbrand - well, mostly. Before its printing, after all, SnT has been pretty much "in check", right? Even with Emrakul, which is about as outrageously absurdly over-te-top-ed-ly (these are all words now!) "designed" as it gets. The fact that a 10/10 invulnerable hydra-headed two-turn-clock cheated into play on turn two doesn't make anyone's head turn in comparison to Griselbrand should be telling you something.

Same thing happened with Survival of the Fittest and Vengevine a few moons back. I don't believe in all that "card X takes away 'R&D design space'!11!"-bullshit for a second, "R&D" (am I the only one who finds it a bit presumptuous for a company's card-game design department to name itself like that by the way?) just gotta get its shit together and not fuck up designing new cards as often as they happen to do. WotC, please just stop shitting out absurd yu-gi-oh-style fatties on a regular basis that can ruin a format if let loose on it with the tools you have printed before. Thanks very much.

[nedleeds]

You have NO idea how much vintage I have played.

I'm sure you tear it up at "Bob's Baseball Dugout" brah. Which of the 6 chairs do you usually sit in?

Edit: A friend of mine just pointed out the part about college calc and I LOLed. Some how that's a metric of intelligence. (Full disclosure - I have a bachelors degree in Comp Sci, so yeah I had to take calc in college)

Awesome. I do as well, I feel so close to you now man.

[pants]

I'm sure you tear it up at "Bob's Baseball Dugout" brah. Which of the 6 chairs do you usually sit in?





Awesome. I do as well, I feel so close to you now man.

There's... there's eight chairs there. I think there are more than eight legacy decks. If you and seven friends had every card in Legacy and were able to build every deck, you still couldn't replicate an actual legacy tournament environment. What makes you think you're qualified to decide what gets banned or unbanned?

Edit: Ten chairs. Sorry, you and nine friends.

[nedleeds]

Reduced variance. Maverick does it by having a ton of redundant drops, blue does it with brainstorm.

To some extent tutors as well. GSZ represents a cross section of your deck. Sylvan Library can help, as can the deck thinning of fetches and knights as the game goes long. But none are as cheap and efficient as brainstorm.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Yes one is absolutely more powerful, I don't debate that. But they are both restricted in Vintage. You take the infantile view of card advantage and you discount the value of cards when viewed in the context of an active game of magic. This is why brainstorm 8-for-8 SCGs and 12-for-16 GPs. Most cards in magic like any resource in any game have a relative value based on the game state ('situational value'), brainstorm in conjunction with a shuffle effect allows to to ... like no other unbanned card ... exchange cards with little situational value for those with great situational value for so little investment of mana (along with replacing itself ... as it's draw3put3back). The simple example for most traditionally constructed decks is a land. A land has high value in the early turns as you build resources, later in the game it's value diminishes if the board state has developed. STP has little value when staring down a goblin charbelcher on the stack. I'm sure you and your play group understand these concepts well.

I guess my (infantile) definition of card advantage is different from yours. You see I define card advantage thusly: "If a sequence of plays (or decisions) ends with a player up one or more cards, that player has gained card advantage." What brainstorm provides is Card Quality.