All B/R update speculation.

[Kich867]

What's the problem guys? Do we have to go through the "Ban-Brainstorm"-Thingie once again? Didn't we do that 8492 times already? Yeah, Legacy-players tend to cry about things shortly before a new announcement. But...it always ends with ban Brainstorm. This is a competitive format, no childs-game. If you cannot play your Mono-B-Aggro, that's fine for me. If you want to kick blue in the ass - build a deck featuring AetherVial/CavernofSouls. I really do not care if you cannot play your pet-deck. At the moment there are 3 ways of playing a competitive deck:
1) 4 FoW 4 Brainstorm.dec
2) Maverick
3) 12-Dredgers.dec
You might disagree but atleast before the printing of Terminus/EntreattheAngels this was a true fact. Who boycotted Legacy? Who sold all his cards? Who didn't go to tournaments? Noone? Why? Because we love Legacy the way it is. If I get blown out by an Emrakul T1. Fine! That's it. Up to game 2. I do not listen to complains if I tempo out an opponent or control him for 20 minutes. That's the friggen game.

I could say the meta is healthy, which may be wrong. But Ill say:

The current meta is Legacy!

It's blue, it's unfair and it's competitive. Deal with it.

I don't think that's much of an accurate description of things. As a general statement I don't love legacy the way it is, and would love to see it improve as a format.

This kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier with this divide between people who play the game strictly to have something to win at and people who play the game as an investment of skill. You can play around being controlled for 20 minutes and win, you can play around tempo loss, you can play around stifle and wasteland and daze and counters and removal, but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

I don't really give a shit about blue, if anything, brainstorm is healthy because of it's ability to add consistency to an otherwise random situation.

The idea here would be to make it more fair and more reliant on your ability to actually play the game, not devolve it into a less exciting version of Go Fish. "Hey do you have an 8? No? Cool I win. Game 2?" I mean if people really don't want to interact with their opponent and be competitive I don't understand why they don't just go for professional bowling? There's more money in it, it probably costs less to get into, you can drink while you do it. At least bowling is more consistent on the draw, you don't have to worry about the pins being randomized on you, you get to use the same ball from the same starting point each throw and so long as you can execute a given strategy flawlessly repeatedly you can excel at it.

[I am the brainwasher]

I don't think that's much of an accurate description of things.
You can play around being controlled for 20 minutes and win, you can play around tempo loss, you can play around stifle and wasteland and daze and counters and removal, but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

The idea here would be to make it more fair and more reliant on your ability to actually play the game, not devolve it into a less exciting version of Go Fish.

All of this is true. A lot of players need to suck that up to finally get the slightest grasp of how a format, and even more important a game should work out to make it fun and competetive at the same time.
Well, that doesn't change the fact that I can't get rid of the impression that all this talk is pearls before swine again anyway... .

[EviL668-2]

You can play around being controlled for 20 minutes and win, you can play around tempo loss, you can play around stifle and wasteland and daze and counters and removal, but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

Have you ever played Zoo vs Belcher? I did and got F***ed by Belcher. Thats it!
My M8 played Canadian and took revenge!

[thefringthing]

I think Carsten's article today on potential unbans is worth reading.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

but if you don't happen to have force of will in your opening hand against a t1 emrakul you literally have no other option other than to lose to something you have absolutely no ability to deal with.

OR..

Karakas
Innocent Blood
Humility (in play off SnT)
Ensaring Bridge (in play off SnT)
Diablolic Edict
ORing (in play off SnT)
Peacekeeper (in play off SnT)
Journey to Nowhere
The Abyss (in play off SnT)
Chainer's Edict

etc...

[Esper3k]

KotR is also pretty common to see - and you know your opponent will always have it! *shakes fist*

[joemauer]

I think Carsten's article today on potential unbans is worth reading.

This was a good read, and mirrors what a lot of us have been saying about unbannings for awhile.

Some of his possible unbans were highly questionable: Balance and Goblin Recruiter. Tolarian Academy was one I never considered, but actually may be unban-worthy.

One small gripe I had with the article is him saying one card combos should stay banned(SotF, tinker, etc.), but then say Griselbrand is the problem with Show and Tell decks. In reality, both cards are problematic: Griselbrand & Show and Tell.

OR..

Karakas
Innocent Blood
Humility (in play off SnT)
Ensaring Bridge (in play off SnT)
Diablolic Edict
ORing (in play off SnT)
Peacekeeper (in play off SnT)
Journey to Nowhere
The Abyss (in play off SnT)
Chainer's Edict

etc...

If Griselbrand gets Show and Teller instead many of these answers become invalidated or risky. Also, Sneak Attack can play around most of these so-called answers as well.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

If Griselbrand gets Show and Teller instead many of these answers become invalidated or risky. Also, Sneak Attack can play around most of these so-called answers as well.

Ok, how about:

Fiend hunter
Cruel Edict
Tariff
Waterfront Bouncer
Sower of Temptation
Shriekmaw
Nekrataal
Confusion in the Ranks
gilded drake
Big Game Hunter
Stingerfling Spider
Tsabo Tavoc
Empress Galina
Merieke Ri Berit
captian sisay (to fetch Karakas)
crop rotation
arena of the ancients
sneak attack (of your own)
seal of unsummoning
seal of death
dominating licid
preacher
cryptoplasm
phyrexian ingester
dark hatchling
bone shredder
Oubliette
spine of ish-sah
(any clone) (you have to cast/ninjitsu after SnT resolves)

[Holly]

Most of your "answers" can't stop his draw 7 which is the big point.

And the "Sneak Attack of your own"..well if only Sneak Show can beat Sneak Show..=P

[joemauer]

Ok, how about:

/List of mostly unplayable cards/

You might as well play your own Emrakuls & Griselbrands. That will only eat up eight sideboard cards and insure you win.

[Koby]

Ok, how about:

*list*

You forgot the best one: Duplicant

Nice fattie. Can you deal with it's Evil Twin?

[Star|Scream]

Most of your "answers" can't stop his draw 7 which is the big point.

And the "Sneak Attack of your own"..well if only Sneak Show can beat Sneak Show..=P

Don't try to argue with logic. It just makes it worse.

Legacy is fine. Blue isn't dominant, or if it is, it's because that's the way legacy is supposed to be. Deal with it.

edit: Also, stop whining.

[Kich867]

Ok, how about:

Fiend hunter
Cruel Edict
Tariff
Waterfront Bouncer
Sower of Temptation
Shriekmaw
Nekrataal
Confusion in the Ranks
gilded drake
Big Game Hunter
Stingerfling Spider
Tsabo Tavoc
Empress Galina
Merieke Ri Berit
captian sisay (to fetch Karakas)
crop rotation
arena of the ancients
sneak attack (of your own)
seal of unsummoning
seal of death
dominating licid
preacher
cryptoplasm
phyrexian ingester
dark hatchling
bone shredder
Oubliette
spine of ish-sah
(any clone) (you have to cast/ninjitsu after SnT resolves)

This is practically why the card is silly, it forces you to play unbelievably awful cards that either don't target or destroy through an etb trigger.

The answer to show and tell is basically, "Play a shittier deck and shit up your sideboard." This is also only a fairly bad list to dealing with show and tell specifically; people seem to forget that they can play Emrakul's and Griselbrand's for 1 in multiples, given their dig I don't see a Karakas stopping 2 of them.

Edicts are the only remotely viable option against them because they aren't completely fucking awful against everyone else. And that deals with one of them: if it's griselbrand you auto-lose with almost every one of those options. So now we need that big list of shit cards, then we need another list to deal with griselbrand (which is basically Stifle and Trickbind), and we need another list to deal with Progenitus because almost every card in there doesn't apply to him except for...edicts. And the only worthwhile edict is 2 mana and prone to spell snare, spell pierce, daze, force, and misdirection, that early in the game.

The most obvious time to change a tradition is when you only keep following it because it's tradition.

[Tacosnape]

If you want to kick blue in the ass - build a deck featuring AetherVial/CavernofSouls.

This is completely wrong, narrow, and off the point.

All blue decks are not RUG Delver.

Decks with Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls do not auto-crush blue decks, because blue is all three major archetypes. You think Sneaky Show, Reanimator, and Hypergenesis care that your stuff is uncounterable? Nope. You think UW Miracles can't just Terminus/Jace/Entreat you to death anyway?

There's more to blue in Legacy than any one card or any one strategy. Cavern of Souls and Thalia were a start at an attempt to fix this, but Red/Black/Green need some things too.

[Einherjer]

This is completely wrong, narrow, and off the point.

All blue decks are not RUG Delver.

Decks with Aether Vial/Cavern of Souls do not auto-crush blue decks, because blue is all three major archetypes. You think Sneaky Show, Reanimator, and Hypergenesis care that your stuff is uncounterable? Nope. You think UW Miracles can't just Terminus/Jace/Entreat you to death anyway?

There's more to blue in Legacy than any one card or any one strategy. Cavern of Souls and Thalia were a start at an attempt to fix this, but Red/Black/Green need some things too.

You havn't played much with/against Terminator have you? While you are right that it doesn't kill SneakShow/Reanimator it's good against the rest. Yes, I can still cast a Terminus. But how powerful is a terminus vs a good player, if not followed up by either a Counterbalance, or some other kind of Counterspell? Aether Vial is incredibly good vs Terminator. You Terminus away my 2 Creatures? Fine, eOt I bring in another one, fine? Or I untap and play a Knight via my Cavern, you wanna counter? Oh wait! You are one of these "Ban-Brainstorm"-guys aren't you? Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings

[Julian23]

"Blue" isn't a deck. Blue certainly isn't an archetype. Blue isn't a strategy. It provides tactical tools to utilize in whatever strategy you favor.

Therefore, the complains about "Blue" are different from the ones about specific cards in general. Just to keep this in mind. Attacking "Blue" in general or arguing about one color being to dominant will only ridicule yourself.

[Kich867]

You havn't played much with/against Terminator have you? While you are right that it doesn't kill SneakShow/Reanimator it's good against the rest. Yes, I can still cast a Terminus. But how powerful is a terminus vs a good player, if not followed up by either a Counterbalance, or some other kind of Counterspell? Aether Vial is incredibly good vs Terminator. You Terminus away my 2 Creatures? Fine, eOt I bring in another one, fine? Or I untap and play a Knight via my Cavern, you wanna counter? Oh wait! You are one of these "Ban-Brainstorm"-guys aren't you? Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings

That was deeply nonsensical. How powerful is terminus against a good player? Very powerful. Board wiping for 1 is good. If they printed a 1 mana Wrath of God, it would be played. A lot. By good players. Against good players.

Can we please step away from the land of god-hands for a minute here and speak more generally? The idea that someone would have 2 creatures down with another creature in hand (that is a knight) that also plays Aether Vial seems sketchy at best.

UW Terminator would not be afraid of that, not between terminus and swords and jace. In my experience UW decks don't counter creatures, they just sword it. And if another one comes they just snapcaster sword that and dig for their next sword. Or in this case, they terminus it/them while digging for another sword, which they'll more often than not find when you have brainstorm every turn.

[HokusSchmokus]

You havn't played much with/against Terminator have you? While you are right that it doesn't kill SneakShow/Reanimator it's good against the rest. Yes, I can still cast a Terminus. But how powerful is a terminus vs a good player, if not followed up by either a Counterbalance, or some other kind of Counterspell? Aether Vial is incredibly good vs Terminator. You Terminus away my 2 Creatures? Fine, eOt I bring in another one, fine? Or I untap and play a Knight via my Cavern, you wanna counter? Oh wait! You are one of these "Ban-Brainstorm"-guys aren't you? Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings

You gotta stop reading only the parts you want to read. Entreat/Jace still is a potent gameplan if your stuff is uncounterable. ALSO and that's the big deal right here, Tacos point is that blue isn't an archetype. Try to adress maybe the relevant points in people's posts instead of nitpicking. But since you don't seem to do that(btw, nice classic rhetoric figure you use in trying to ridicule Taco) I think it's

Not gonna make much sense to discuss this topic with you.

Greetings.

[I am the brainwasher]

In my experience UW decks don't counter creatures, they just sword it. And if another one comes they just snapcaster sword that and dig for their next sword.

Am I really the only one who thinks that this is hilarious?
God this is so true and let me tell you, I hate that sort of play.

[Star|Scream]

"Blue" isn't a deck. Blue certainly isn't an archetype. Blue isn't a strategy. It provides tactical tools to utilize in whatever strategy you favor.

But when the top aggro deck, top control deck, and top TWO combo decks all use those same tools, can't you see how it would be frustrating to people?