[Deck] The Rock

[Neffy]

QUestion: how many equipments do you people run?

I see most list vary from using two and three along with 3 stoneforge mystic.
The more creatures you use, the more equipments is feasible, i guess?

Im looking at my list which has Batterskull, Jitte and SOFAI at the moment. With a total of 17 creatures (three Birds - i have no Mox D's) shoud i remove one of them? Im trying to get room for a third Maelstrom Pulse and mostly i look at the equipments and think that two might do the trick..

I like having the Jitte for shooting small creatures and maybe life gain vs Dark Confidant life loss. Batterskull is a quick beater with lifelink too and SOFAI is mostly there for birds to fly home the victory... EDIT: SOFAI also used on spirit tokens from Lingering souls.

Any thoughts are very appreciated :)

A

[AggroSteve]

i would need a little advice for my build, since i would need to fit in at minimum 1 other land, maybe even 2 lands

my question to you is what to cut and which lands would be the optimal choice

i am leaning to horizon canopy (maze of ith will be in the sideboard)

3 wasteland
8 fetch
3 godless shrine
3 overgrown tomb
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 nantuko monastery
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas

4 confidant
4 goyf
4 knight
2 quasali pridemage

4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
2 EE
4 thoughtseize
4 hymne to tourach
2 life from the loam
2 sensei's divining top
4 mox diamond

the only real options i see for the cut would be either Top, vindicate, quasali if the list stays discardheavy
another option for the cut would be hymn to tourach + divining top. in this case the list would probably become more loamheavy with cyclelands

what do you guys think would be the best choice

my first guess was cutting both pridemages for 1 land and 1 vindicate

[Sughayyer]

Hi guys! I'm new here, but I'm a big fan of the rock archetype.
I've been playing for a while with the following list:

3 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 hymn to tourach
3 sensei's divining too
3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary
4 swords to plowshares
3 vindicate
1 maelstrom pulse
3 pernicious deed
1 elspeth, knight-errand

8 fetchlands
3 scrub
3 bayou
2 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 maze
1 canopy
4 waste

i like to play this more control-based version. Although mox gives many decent turn 1 plays, I just like deed too much. But i am still considering using 3 mox diamond. In this case, i would take deed away and perhaps use another pulse and -1 swamp. What do you think?

[Thorondor]

i would need a little advice for my build, since i would need to fit in at minimum 1 other land, maybe even 2 lands

my question to you is what to cut and which lands would be the optimal choice

i am leaning to horizon canopy (maze of ith will be in the sideboard)

3 wasteland
8 fetch
3 godless shrine
3 overgrown tomb
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
1 nantuko monastery
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas

4 confidant
4 goyf
4 knight
2 quasali pridemage

4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
2 EE
4 thoughtseize
4 hymne to tourach
2 life from the loam
2 sensei's divining top
4 mox diamond

the only real options i see for the cut would be either Top, vindicate, quasali if the list stays discardheavy
another option for the cut would be hymn to tourach + divining top. in this case the list would probably become more loamheavy with cyclelands

what do you guys think would be the best choice

my first guess was cutting both pridemages for 1 land and 1 vindicate

I guess it is a kind of budget list, if not add maze of ith, 24 lands are enough, I would also consider playing only 3 mox diamonds and 23 lands.
Take a look at this list:
http://mtgpulse.com/event/7998#109955

imo it is one of the bests out there atm of course it always depends on your meta. Hymns are not that good at the moment, directed 1cc discard is better.

@Sughayyer
list looks ok for me, maybe 3 vindicate, 1 maelstrom and 3 deed is kind of too much. If you play 3 deed you can remove the maelstrom pulse and maybe 1 vindicate, this needs testing. If you want to add mox diamonds switch the deeds to your SB, they are still good and awesome against some decks (e.g. maverick, affinity). One thing I would change for sure: Add the fourth dark confidant and remove 1 hymn, I would maybe even consider to cut all of them, and add +3 zenith and remove 1 swamp for 1 dryad arbor, but if you like this control-based version, you really need sdt with 10 discard spells, in top deck mode they suck. :-/ You could also consider to add 1-2 sylvan library.

maybe try out:
-2 hymn
+1 sylvan library
+1 dark confidant

[Sughayyer]

Maybe I should use 6 1cc discard spells, remove hymns entirely and use 2 lilianas instead... then add bob and library, replace vindicate for puses and deeds with moxes, to start.

[Mirrislegend]

I placed 20th at SCG Worcester this past weekend, going 7-2. My list is exactly the same as I recently posted, except for trying out Sword of Light and Shadow in the Sword of Fire and Ice spot.

Here's a brief, skimpy report:

R1 - Casey playing Reanimator
G1 - L - I was on the draw, mulled once, and kept a weak hand. He had a super hot start: T1 Entomb, T2 reanimate effect, T3 entomb and reanimate effect...
G2 - L - I mull once, he mulls twice. He had a very slow start, but I was lacking pressure. I handled him pretty well, until he stuck Empyrial Archangel. I was just short of enough damage to kill Archangel, meaning I couldn't get in the last points of damage. I died with two pieces of targeted removal in my hand
0-2 Loss
0-1 Total

R2 - Raeef playing Maverick (tiny red splash)
G1 - L - I believe his Thalia keeps me from stabilizing in time. This is exacerbated by being on the draw
G2 - W - I mull twice, he mulls once. Zealous Persecution ruins his day, followed up by discard. Victory by a large margin
G3 - W - Got it by the skin of my teeth on turn 5. I misplayed a few times, resulting in him not being dead. We get to turns, I swing for lethal on turn 5. His only hope is KotR activation for Horizon Canopy to draw for Swords to Plowshares. He hits the StP! But he does the math and can't point it at any of my critters for enough to save himself. I win. Turns out he could have Sworded his own guys for enough to live. His misplay was definitely due to being wicked on-tilt from my pressure.
1-2 Win
1-1 Total

R3 - Noah playing http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46826
G1 - L - I had complete and total control of the game. Victory was at my fingertips. I was short 1 damage worth of pressure and couldn't find it despite many turns of trying. Early game I thought a Mother of Runes was still summoning sick, so I swung in and lost a Dark Confidant to it. If I had done that right, I would have had the game
G2 - L - Kept a not-perfect hand, drew nothing, and got Wastelanded out
0-2 Loss
1-2 Total

R4 - Chris playing Hypergenesis
G1 - W - I don't realize what I'm playing against for a while, as he completely land floods. I win via his flood. And I panic because I'm totally unprepared for this matchup. I wanted to fit in 2 Diabolic Edict in the SB for this MU and Reanimator, and just couldn't find the slots
G2 - W - He is stuck on two land the whole game
I had NO business winning this match. But I had no business losing my previous match, so it all balances out
2-0 Win
2-2 Total

R5 - Mike playing (I forgot to write it down!)
G1 - W - He land floods to death
G2 - W
2-0 Win
3-2 Total

R6 - Alex Morill (sp?) playing RUG
G1 - W - He whiffs on pressure, discard shreds him, Batterskull takes it home. His tech, Sylvan Library, was hot but didn't save him
G2 - L - I kept a greedy hand. And Sulfuric Vortex is hot tech.
G3 - W - Very close game due to Sulfuric Vortex pinging me
I know this guy to be a good player, so I'm happy to have played well enough to win this
2-1 Win
4-2 Total

R7 - Kris playing U/B control (bitterblossom, snapcaster, Vend Clique, Jace)
G1 - W - I think he just failed to hit anything relevant
G2 - L - I mull twice, get landscrewed, then Jace locks me out
G3 - W - DESTROY him. I'm on the play. A smattering of early discard and threats (bait) trims down his hand. Choke lands.
2-1 Win (This deck is a born control killer :) )
5-2 Total

R8 - James playing Reanimator
G1 - W - I show Dark Confidant early, so he puts Iona on white. Dig for Swords to Plowshares, hit it, and win
G2 - L - He mulls. But he's on the play, Iona on white, I lose
G3 - W - He mulls. Keeps his 6, but gets stuck on the one land in his opener, so he has ZERO pressure. He eventually looks like he's about to get back into the game, but my clock beats his topdecking
2-1 Win
6-2 Total
34th going into the final round

R9 - Dustin Taylor playing RUG
This guy is a local ringer. He plays so tight it's scary. I'm mildly terrified of him. To top it off, he thinks I'm a total scrub despite he and I being about even against each other.
G1 - W - I'm on the play, he mulls, he has very very little pressure, and my deck does it's job and pounds RUG into the dirt
G2 - L - He mulls, but still has a perfect hand with lots of pressure. He finishes it off with double LBolt for exactly enough
G3 - W - I play TERRIBLY. Like no logic to it at all. My caffeine buzz is wearing off and I've been playing much harder and better than I usually do, so I'm feeling serious brain drain. However, he has no pressure. He spends a fair amount of resources screwing me out of lands. However, I only need 3, so it's no biggie and despite my misplays, the deck just rolls him. As in 2 creatures, SoLS, and BSkull on board, with KotR, Pridemage, and Maze of Ith left in my hand when he scoops
2-1 Win
7-2 Total

Finish 20th. I suppose if my wins had been 2-0 and my losses hadn't been early, breakers may have gotten me to top 16. But I couldn't care less, as I'm thrilled with my performance

Props:
Timmay for riding with me
Roodmistah for top8ing
The dude serving at the food stand who hooked me up
Hymn to Tourach

Slops:
Most of the other RI players scrubbing out

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lessons learned:
-Still don't know if SoLS is any good
-Lingering Souls is good almost every time, but not often is it necessary
-Need more Thoughtseizes over Inquisitions!
-The deck is still way slower than I want a beatdown deck to be
-Need moar Wasteland, if only to protect my utility lands from opposing Wastelands
-Need Edict effects in the SB!

It's clear the meta is shifting away from the trifecta of RUG, Stoneblade, Maverick. The deck needs to evolve with it. I'm brewing with Mox Diamond. It's looking delicious so far, except 25 lands and 3 Mox Diamonds eats a lot of slots

[Qweerios]

I have been very dissapointed with Lingering Souls lately. It gives a lot of card advantage and is nearly unstoppable, but it doesn't do anything on its own. 1/1s aren't scary at all without SoFI, and landing Souls + SoFI + Equip takes a while.

Also, G1 against combo is abysmal. I am starting to miss Vindicate to pop some lands.

[Sughayyer]

That's the point! I tinkered so much with this deck, - I already posted my build, and I tried the suggestd modifications - it eithers gets a "fair" game against Esper/UW and gets worse at everything else, or has a good match against most decks and loses to these. I don't know if I'm actually making all the poor decisions, or is just the fact that uw/esper have better card quantity, better card selection AND better card quality.

[Mirrislegend]

I have been very dissapointed with Lingering Souls lately. It gives a lot of card advantage and is nearly unstoppable, but it doesn't do anything on its own. 1/1s aren't scary at all without SoFI, and landing Souls + SoFI + Equip takes a while.

Also, G1 against combo is abysmal. I am starting to miss Vindicate to pop some lands.

So far, LSouls has been good every 2/3 times I play it (even without hitting equipment), but not always integral in winning the game. I feel like it's important for controlling builds of Rock, and is an excellent anti control tool, but may not be a must-play

G1 against combo is imperfect, but discard + pressure is not bad

That's the point! I tinkered so much with this deck, - I already posted my build, and I tried the suggestd modifications - it eithers gets a "fair" game against Esper/UW and gets worse at everything else, or has a good match against most decks and loses to these. I don't know if I'm actually making all the poor decisions, or is just the fact that uw/esper have better card quantity, better card selection AND better card quality.

I haven't played against Stoneblade. But I imagine 8 discard spells + pressure should be pretty good. Post board you get Teeg (if they're playing sweepers) and Choke

[Sughayyer]

I'm gonan try out thet list (after i get the chance to play, I'll post the results)

2 Inquisition o Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
---> (might change the split here, maybe 4 seize or 3-1)
4 hymn to tourach
3 vindicate
2 maelstrom pulse
2 life from the loam
4 swords to plowshares
3 dark confidant
3 tarmogoyf
1 eternal witness
4 knight of the reliquary
3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond

lands:
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
4 wasteland
1 maze of ith
1 volrath's stronghold
1 karakas
1 horizon canopy
2 scrublands
2 bayou
1 savannah
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains

SB:
2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 choke
1 engineered plague
2 gerrard's veredict
3 kitchen finks
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 bojuka bog

As I said before, still untested, but opinions are welcome!

[sdematt]

I'm now running:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage

3 Inquistion of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
3 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Sensei's Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Life from the Loam

--BOARD--
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Dread of Night
1 Perish (6 cards against Maverick seems good)
2 Choke
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Timely Reinforcements
+2 Slots (Extirpate, Duress, Diabolic Edict, etc.)

[Arsenal]

I've wanted to get Libraries in my build too, but always was like "Bob + Top is already alot" and Bob and Library have the same cmc (don't want to get too overloaded at 2cc slot for Spell Snare blowouts). I suspect they've been nutty everytime you get to untap with it.

[Qweerios]

@Sughayyer

I think Goyf is a zero-or-four-of card, and here is why:

He is vanilla, smaller than KotR, and subject to the same weaknesses. Being "on the curve" is not an argument when you have other options such as Ooze, Qasali, Teeg, or even space to add more GSZ. Goyf in the Legacy environment is a tempo card while GSZ is a midrange card. Unless you are commited to a conflicting strategy, don't play both in your Legacy deck. In the advent that you only have 3 mana and GSZ for 2 is your best or only option and your purpose is either to put pressure on your opponent or grant immediate defense (which seems to be the arguments in favor of a Goyf here), don't GSZ for a Goyf because:

-Those situations are infrequent;
-On a poor board and in Top deck mode, Goyf offers less in terms of disruption, versatility, and therefore pressure than Ooze, Teeg, Pridemage, or hell, even Skinshifter;
-As a defensive move, cards like Ooze, Sporecap Spider, Wall of Blossom will do a better job;
-As an offensive move, you are either: losing the game, on tilt, or need to buyback into the game and Goyf will do that more poorly than any of the aforementioned cards...

The only situation I can think of when Goyf is favored as a 2 CMC GSZ target is when your options are limited or your can only produce 3 mana, your life total is in lethal range of your opponent's creature(s), and your opponent's life total is in lethal range of Goyf. Only in that extremely narrow siatuation is Goyf superior to his alternatives because you have nothing better to play or cannot play anything better, and his immediate high p/t has to be used in both a defensive and offensive fashion.

Bob is also zero-or-four but for different reasons that I won't elaborate on.

Vindicate/Pulse cards are clunky. I wouldn't play anywhere near more than 3 Pulse if Pulse is my card of choice. As for Vindicate, I think 4 is fine because you can use it in a proactive fashion by destroying lands, and that grants Vindicate more application in more matchups. As for playing a split of both, don't go overboard and play more than 3-4 pieces total IMO.

I wouldn't play more than 1 LftL in your list because it isn't central to your gameplan. LftL isn't something you necessarily want to see in every game and drawing a second one would be more detrimental than incremental. I don't currently own a LftL but I have played with it before and I think having a singleton in your 75 can be very beneficial, especially with Liliana and Mox.

[sdematt]

Untapping with Sylvan has been amazing. Squeeze at least one in, if you can.

I don't think Goyf is the wrong card for this deck at all. You need actual threats and disruption, not Qasali Pridemage and disruption. What I mean is, you need fat. We're a deck that rips apart hands and blows stuff up, and if you don't have anything that can close the gap quickly, you're doomed. Utility is good, but so is beef. I know many lists are dropping him, but show me a replacement that closes games and I'll change to it. As of right now, there isn't anything great at 2 CMC. If I could play more Knights, I would.

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

Untapping with Sylvan has been amazing. Squeeze at least one in, if you can.

I don't think Goyf is the wrong card for this deck at all. You need actual threats and disruption, not Qasali Pridemage and disruption. What I mean is, you need fat. We're a deck that rips apart hands and blows stuff up, and if you don't have anything that can close the gap quickly, you're doomed. Utility is good, but so is beef. I know many lists are dropping him, but show me a replacement that closes games and I'll change to it. As of right now, there isn't anything great at 2 CMC. If I could play more Knights, I would.

-Matt

How do you untap with sylvan?

[damionblackgear]

How do you untap with sylvan?

If you have a Sylvan Library in play when your turn starts, you've untapped with Library.

I like the points of Goyf being a 0 or 4 card but don't agree. It's not strong enough to warrant 4 spots anymore. The format again contains decks which Goyf is required (for it's randomly larger size and speed in which you can play it). As such, I don't think it's a 4 or a 0.

lastly, New Matches are up here.

[Stuuch]

Went to a local GPT ghent today. Had some bad matchups. Lost against two high tide decks and one maverick deck. Won against painter and budget hive mind deck. My list was almost the same that is posted about two three pages back. Really missed vindicate and hymn in the combo matches but otherwise the deck worked fine. Could have won the maverick match but I was a bit unlucky there in game two.

[sdematt]

That's too bad. You''ll get them next time!

-Matt

[Mr. Safety]

A couple of questions for experienced Rock players:

1) Does anyone use Life from the Loam/Raven's Crime/Cycle lands anymore?

2) Is Pernicious Deed no longer good enough for maindeck inclusion?

3) Has anyone tried Grave Titan as a high-end bomb? (This may be more of a Nic-Fit type of play.)

Thank you in advance for any help!

[Sughayyer]

Today, i lended the deck to a friend from my team, end he's playing a tournament with it (with i unfortunately couldn't attend to)

He'xs using this list:
3 inquisition
3 thoughtseize
3 vindicate

4 swords to plowshares

4 knights of the reliquary
4 tarmogoyf
3 bob (i had 4, i just found out that i lost one :S)
3 kitchen finks

3 liliana of the veil

3 sensei's divining top
1 umezawa's jitte

3 pernicious deed

as for the lands, the same as before, but adding bojuka bog and karakas to main.
side:

2 enlightened tutors
3 engineered plagues
2 maelstrom pulses
1 life from the loam
1 nihil spellbomb
1 relic of progenitus
3 leyline of sanctity
1 elspeth, knight errand
1 pithing needle

he's expecting a lot of aggro decks for today... I'll post his results

and you all, thanks for all the advice :) Befor I knew this forum, I thought I was the last Rock lover rsrsr