[Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist

[oRen]

I don't know what you mean exactly, but I stopped succeeding when GW started to be played heavily. Green Sun's Zenith made Countertop look silly and you couldn't even Spell Snare their Pridemages anymore. Plus they had lot's of removal.

Tempo plan is good because of Delver. Back in the days you could just save the removal spell for dreadnought. Now there's also Delver who will win the game if not removed. Roodmistah just explained this a few posts above, you should perhaps read the page before asking further questions.

I talk about times when Grip was a relevant factor which was like 2 years ago. The deck got dropped WAY before the printing of Zenith and after the banning of Survival - which means there was close to 0 GW in the format. If GWx would have been generally a problem you would have never been able to play the deck for as long as it is possible to stifle the Dreadnought trigger.

I read the last pages and I can obviously see how Delver can be a decent call to the metagame by being a threat by itself yet it limits you in building the deck in a way I do not like. I can see the old strategy still working with close to no grips and not that much Maverik in the metagame - and therefore I am asking Rood if and why he thinks that this line of building the deck is outdated and not viable anymore.

[Hopo]

This is pretty ridicules. I talk about times when Grip was a relevant factor which was like 2 years ago.

Then why didn't you say so, little princess? Making people guess what you have in mind is not the best discussion.

If GWx Survival was your problem you would have never been able to play the deck as long as I play Legacy

I don't get what you're trying to say here. Where did that survival come from?

I started playing with dreadnoughts because Survival of the Fittest was banned so I can tell you nothing about playing this during the survival times.

[Rood]

To answer oRen basically what happened is Mental Misstep really killed this deck for the most part a while back before it was banned then once it became banned Delver of Secrets became printed along with new colorless spot removal (Dismember). So now we gained an additional threat that could end the game in just a few short turns as well as not get run over by Tombstalkers/KoTR/Goyf, and such. Before it was a nightmare to face large creatures resolving with this deck, you basically had to have the counter for it on the spot or just be prepared to get run over by it if you didn't have the Nought to trump.

If you're more comfortable playing with Counterbalance then by all means I wouldn't stop you. I think with the resurgence of Reanimator and such you'd be fine if you opted to go for a more controlling list focused around CB/Top. But I think Griselbrand is going to be banned in a couple of days at least hopefully if Wizards is paying any attention to legacy.

[iPhael]

@Rood: Just wanted to pop in and say grats on the finish, keep strong! This was my first legacy deck and I'm super pumped to see it back in action :) And I'll completely agree on misstep killing the deck for the most part. The addition, and subsequent absence of Trinket Mage, of Delver really got this archetype back on its feet. Plus the meta full of 2/2's makes good ole' Grim an absolute all star. Losing Trinket Mage kind of makes CBT unplayable, as now the entire deck basically costs 1 haha. Which leads me to my next point:

@Survival: To be honest that wasn't a really terrible match in my short experience with the CBT URg Dreadstill deck. If you found the hibernation (or hell, even firespout) out the board on time, it was actually pretty manageable.

[oRen]

Fair enough. Thanks a lot. Some fuzzy memories came back ...

It just feels very weird really wanting to play a deck out of mainly nostalgia reasons and card availability (no noughts/standstills though) and the "fear" that the deck you want to play might be generally bad positioned in the evolving metagame (especially because of the powercreep of creatures) and strategy wise outdated. I will try to really ponder my options and what to do with my craving to stomp with Dreadnoughts again ...
Cavern of Souls in MUD, Goblins, elsewhere looks like a serious to unbeatable issue for the older lists though ...

@Hopo: I sure did not express myself perfectly which is generally bad and I wrote my second post in a bit of rage but rewrote it a least a bit better. Rood got what I meant in the first place and I am satisfied for now. I hope everything is fine now.

[Hopo]

Cavern of Souls looks like a serious issue for the older lists though ...

This, and to some extent Aether Vial as well, especially if GW starts to play that again. The existence of Cavern of Souls actually was the thing that made me a bit suspicious regarding playing without maindeck removal.

[oRen]

You are completely right ... also even GW can play Cavern which makes it look even scarier than it already does. Jace and/or Bolts/Lavamancers in the maindeck in some numbers would be reasonable I guess but the more I think of it I was extremely nostalgia driven and wanted it to make it work. I will see ...

[Hopo]

You are completely right ... also even GW can play Cavern which makes it look even scarier than it already does. Jace and/or Bolts/Lavamancers in the maindeck in some numbers would be reasonable I guess but the more I think of it I was extremely nostalgia driven and wanted it to make it work. I will see ...

Roodmistah's sideboard removal should be enough for GW. I also always advise against Jace when playing with Daze.

[HammafistRoob]

Ive been working on a more controllish version which opts to drop red completely for the better removal options white has to offer. Unfortunately I dont own any cards at the moment so I have only been testing with mws. Heres the main 60
4 wasteland
3 mishras factory
3 tundra
2 underground sea
4 flooded strand
3 polluted delta
2 island

4 delver of secrets
3 dark confidant
3 phyrexian dreadnaught

3 standstill
3 counterbalance
3 senseis divining top

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
2 daze

The sideboard obviously varies depending on meta and such, but something like this seems viable.

2 jace, the mindsculptor
2 vedalken shackles
1 vindicate
3 surgical extraction
2 relic of progenitus
4 spell pierce
1 standstill

I really dont like gitaxian probe at all, i think its a waste of 2 slots, I would run two trickbinds(never) before probe. Really all the arguements for it are irrelevant. You should know your line of play simply by what deck your opponent is playing. If they only pack 18 lands you obviously stifle fetches aggressively, and if they only have 4 swords maindeck then you obvously just drop dreadnaught. I think thoughtseize would be 10 times better in that slot but I havent tried it out so im not sure. Also Peacekeeper is a really sweet board option white gives.

[Waikiki]

Does delver still work with that many permanents ?

[oRen]

My exact first thought. Delver is limiting you from a deck design point of view if you are really trying to exploit it. Blind flipping delver as often as possible and starting the beats is incredibly important.

Did you try a list without SS/CB/Top for +1 Nought/Confidant and more instants and sorceries?

[Hopo]

I had severe problems flipping delvers with Roodmistah's build so I eventually added 3 flippers and cut a dreadnought and the tops. Still I was having hard time flipping it. It never seemed to matter, though. I think my record was 6 non-succesful flips in a row.

[HammafistRoob]

With 20 instants and sorceries theres a decent chance delver flips blindly. I also have 7 cards to help set up a flip. But its not as important to get him flipped on turn 2 as it is if you were playing RUG. If you drop standstill turn 2 it doesnt matter very much if your delver takes a few turns to flip because SS effectively keeps the heat off your life total.

I would never cut standstill, its the decks namesake. If you cut standstills then you effectively have zero card advantage (unless you use confidant or cb/top). The reason this deck fell off is because people were cutting standstill and trying to make it a pure tempo deck. The problem there is you lose tons of tempo when you 2for1 yourself all day (dreadnaught dying, or casting FoW). Standstill is more or less the best card in the deck I would never go to less than 3.

Also its quite obvious you guys are just shouting out critique without actually trying out the deck. I wouldnt count out cb/top just yet I believe it has rediculous potential right now.

[Hopo]

I wouldnt count out cb/top just yet I believe it has rediculous potential right now.

When the most performing combo deck in the format is Show and Tell, countertop doesn't look so appealing to me right now but I feel you. It also doesn't address miracle control much, which is one of the more drastic matchups. their wincon and Terminus are both immune to Counterbalance. It is of course effective against the low-cc delver tempo decks and whatnot. I would say it's up to you to figure out what you want to beat. Roodmistah's build is quite good at having a chance against basically anything. And you shouldn't have any real problems with combo decks in general, with or without countertop.

[iPhael]

With 20 instants and sorceries theres a decent chance delver flips blindly. I also have 7 cards to help set up a flip. But its not as important to get him flipped on turn 2 as it is if you were playing RUG. If you drop standstill turn 2 it doesnt matter very much if your delver takes a few turns to flip because SS effectively keeps the heat off your life total.

I would never cut standstill, its the decks namesake. If you cut standstills then you effectively have zero card advantage (unless you use confidant or cb/top). The reason this deck fell off is because people were cutting standstill and trying to make it a pure tempo deck. The problem there is you lose tons of tempo when you 2for1 yourself all day (dreadnaught dying, or casting FoW). Standstill is more or less the best card in the deck I would never go to less than 3.

Also its quite obvious you guys are just shouting out critique without actually trying out the deck. I wouldnt count out cb/top just yet I believe it has rediculous potential right now.

This x1000. It's the name of the deck for crying out loud lol. You NEED more CA then just Top or Bob. Too many 241's in your deck to warrant it's omission.

[Rood]

Standstill should be an auto-include in pretty much all lists. Card is way too brutalizing at what it does to not warrant at least 3 copies between the MD/SB. Not to mention have to ever played a Bob then dropped a Standstill? No better then that :D.

[sdematt]

Actually, I dropped a Bob, then my opponent dropped Standstill. Then, I Wastelanded him. Thrice. I lived the dream that day.

-Matt

[Arew]

I played Roodmistah's 75 last weekend at SCG Indy Open, ended up 5-4 overall, the deck was absolutely insane though.

Quick Overview:

R1: Beat Metalworker MUD 2-1, lost G1 to no removal for his Metalworkers, won G2-3 by killing his dudes and countering his relevant spells. This matchup doesn't seem too bad if they aren't running Welder.

R2: Beat UR Delver 2-0, G1 I got him into pointless counter-wars and dropped a Dreadnought, G2 I wasted first Volc, and he kept a one-lander so I countered all his cantrips and just beat him with Delver/Mishra's.

R3: I beat RUG Delver 2-1, I won G1 by dropping a Dreadnought after making him fight over a Goyf. Don't remember how I lost G2, but I won G3 fairly easily after he couldn't find his Grudge for my Dreadnought.

R4: I lose an incredibly close match to Sneak and Show 1-2. G1 I don't have enough counter-magic to stop him, G2 I resolve two Standstills, stifle an Annihilator trigger going to 1 and winning, G3 it comes down to me finding a Bolt or him not finding a Force for my Stifle.

Important to note, that I had about seven missed Delver flips in this match, with a T1 Delver each game.

R5: I beat Matt Costa on RUG Delver 2-1, it went basically the same as my R3 match, except he's playing a single Vapor Snag I have to play around. I win G1, lost G2 to him finding Grudge, win G3 by forcing him to Vapor Snag his Delver and dropping a Dreadnought and he couldn't beat it.

R6: I beat Death and Taxes 2-1. Lose G1 to him going T1 and 2 Aether Vial with two Moms and two Serra Avengers, he topdecks the Mangara for the Nought and I lose. G2 and 3, Lavamancer with Dismembers and Bolts keeps him off all his dudes while I beat him down.

R7: This is where the wheels start falling off. I lose to Josh Glantzman on Maverick after he had a Swords and Pridemage for my Dreadnought, G2 I mull to five and he has a T2 Choke. I manage to put down a Dreadnought at some point and but he has the Pridemage and I can't do much off just a Wasteland and he takes me out after awhile.

R8: I lose 0-2. I keep something like Volc/Volc/Standstill/Standstill/Factory/Daze/Brainstorm, but he's on the play with Belcher and T1 Puts out a bunch of Goblins. G2 my inexperience against Belcher and with this deck shows and I keep a shaky hand of Volc/Nought/Nought/Nought/Force/Daze/Top but don't Daze his first mana-ritual and he has REB for anything after that.

R9: I lose 0-2 to BUG Control. I'm tilting slightly after losing the last two, and my heart isn't really in it. I lose G1 to Clique/Liliana after he manages to stop my Dreadnought. G2 I mull to five on the play again, drop a T2 Standstill with a Factory and then he drops a Creeping Tar Pit that I didn't see G1. I try to race it and find a Waste or another Factory to help but can't and end up breaking my own Standstill but I'm one turn off being able to win my Dreadnought so I scoop it up and see that none of my friends made T8, with the closest coming in 9th and we head home.


Overall the deck is absurdly good, though Delver blind-flips a little less than I would have liked. None of the matches I lost did I feel there was no realistic way to win, and mostly lost to a combination of bad mulligans, sloppy play the last two rounds because I couldn't recover my focus after tilting.

I want to add two Cliques, and another Volc or Fetch, but I'm not sure what to cut. Was thinking -2 Probe -1 Snare, but Probe is really good in the blue matchup and more likely to resolve against them, though cutting spells hurts Delver.

Thanks to Roodmistah for making the deck, was a blast and I'm definitely going to keep practicing with it in the future.

[HaShugz7]

Hey Guys...

I ran the following list at a small 25 man tourney at our local shop.

4 Nought
4 Delver
4 Lavamancer

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
2 Trickbind

5 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic
2 Flooded Strand

3 REB
3 Crypt
3 Extraction
3 Dismember
3 Pierce

These are the matchups I faced

2-1 UR Delver
2-1 Mono Black Aggro
2-1 UW Tempo
2-0 Hypergenesis
2-0 Sneak and Show
2-0 UR Delver
2-0 Goblins

Deck was great...I wish I had a mountain tho cuz Lavamancer could have dominated a few gms but vol was killed...here's the list I'm prob gonna in ATL

4 Nought
4 Delver
4 Lavamancer

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Standstill
3 Fire / Ice
3 Spell Pierce
2 Trickbind

5 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Factory
3 Wasteland
2 Volcanic
2 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain

3 REB
3 Crypt
3 Dismember
2 Explosives
2 Extraction
2 Clique

[Rood]

Pretty nice list I might have to try out Lightning Bolts in the main. You're playing it at GP ATL? Goodluck man! 6 SB GY hate options is probally too many, I'd run a 2/2 split freeing up slots for 2 Crucible of Worlds or just a 1/1 split between Bolt and Crucible. For Mountain, I absolutely hate running it in the maindeck but go for it if you feel the 2 volcs aren't safe. I know kiiblast runs the full set of Volcs to negate this.