Karakas for example.Originally Posted by Kl'rt
So you really think sneak.deck can play around mana leak to early resolve show and tell or sneak attack ?
What frightens is a turn two/three/four show and tell/sneak attack. On turn two counterspell is often uncastable in any list playing waste or basics plains or karakas or mishras.
My mana base : 23 lands
4 flooded strand
4 polluted delta
3 tundra
3 glacial fortress
5 island
2 plains
2 wastelands
I would play some karakas if my meta were composed of many sneak attack, which is not the case.
Forgive my bad English...
What is the point of running the 2 Wastelands?
You have to deal with cavern of souls vs maverick, and to destroys the sol lands of sneak.deck. Plus, sometimes it just wins games by itslef when the opponent is stuck on one land.
It is also very nice with crucible.
Forgive my bad English...
permanents that may have passed our counter spells on turn 1 and 2 :
-Vial ( even if you don't have a counter after you bounce it it a big tempo advantage for us )
-Thopter Foundry ( if this lands on turn 2 and you don't have a way to bounce or destroy it you just die )
-counterbalance
- jitte( in my meta I have a player that plays bant vial with Moorland Haunt ) or Batterskull is a problem
As for the Maverick match up :
in about 10 matches I have yet to lose a single one ( never let a Gaddock Teeg or a green sun for 2 resolve if they have a mother or a karakas in play )
as for the counter spell vs mana leak conversation :
My mana base is :
Lands [22]
1 Arid Mesa
1 Plains
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Flooded Strand
6 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
( No karakas - I find than a 1 of is too random to reliably find when needed and it can hurt vs waste land decks )
and I play :
4 ponder
4 brainstorms
4 tops
In my build I rather have counter spell then mana leak ( I have no problem casting them on turn 2 )
O ring does what Repeal does, but it's a more permanent answer. This deck is about removal as much as it is about countering spells. Temporary solutions like Repeal are bad in this deck. We don't capitalize on tempo like aggro/control decks do. We need permanent answers.
Regarding Mom + Teeg, we can hit that combo with double removal, of which we have StP, O Ring, and Jace. Factory also holds the ground against Teeg if necessary. Postboard, Humility is another answer, and there is also Shackles for those with Shackles in their board. For lists with Karakas, that's also another out.
Regarding Mana Leak, I don't have issues hitting UU on turn two. I'd sooner cut Factory for more blue sources than run Mana Leak. I'd also run Spell Pierce over Mana Leak; if I'm going to run a situational, bad lategame counter, it should at least cost less mana than Counterspell.
We don't capitalize on tempo like aggro/control decks do. We need permanent answers.
I know that this deck dos not capitalize on tempo ... its a virtual time walk + draw a card against vial decks ...
as for teeg if he lands early backed up by mom or karakas : stp + jace is not an option or stp and humility ....
your only option is : Stp +stp or Stp snap
When I said Jace and Humility, I was referring to getting those down before Teeg comes into play.
Keeping Mom from sticking is usually a priority anyway, so countering or otherwise dealing with one piece of the combo usually isn't a problem. Teeg is usually a 1-of found off GSZ, so saving FoW and Counterspell for GSZ is a solid plan.
StP + O Ring double removal still deals with Mom + Teeg.
My point is, it isn't hard from preventing them from assembling that combo in the first place, but if they do, we not only have some reactive outs, we also have some proactive outs. If you're having major issues with it, you could always bring in Pithing Needle too, since there are tons of juicy targets for it.
I've really grown fond of that card over the years and consider it a potent MD addition for several reasons (i. e. in the Clique/Terminus#4 slot):
- It serves as a wincon
- serves as a control element
- enhances the CB curve (when replacing Terminus #4)
- we have more than enough Islands to support it (Fortress would have to be cut though)
- also, even as a 1of it's not random since you don't want to see it before the mid/late midgame.
I have a question, why the glacial fortress instead of hollowed fountain? The only thing I can think of is because of choke, but we are giving up the ability to search for them because of that? Also for the people looking into shackles( i will be cuz I love that card) are you taking out the fortresses for Fountain?
@3 Tundra: I run 3 Tundra to play around wasteland. Basics are way awesome.
@Gaddock Teeg: If you told me I could a deck where Teeg was the only issue a deck would give me... I would absolutely play that deck. Oh wait.
@Shackles: Is Shackles better than a 3rd Entreat? What are your thoughts on that [klaus/Hanni]??
I actually like Mystic Gate more than Glacial Fortress if people are looking for ways to avoid Choke and also get more colored mana options. If I open with Gate + Karakas, I don't actually feel too bad, whereas if that Gate was a Fortress, I'd have to auto-ship that back. Gate can at least let you cast Top on turn 1, while Fortress can't.
What about Nimbus Maze? It fixes your off color and taps for turn 1 Top.
You want to have UU online on turn 2. Nimbus Maze doesn't allow you to do this.
Glacial fortress if against chock and hollowed fountain has the same problems as tundra vs Choke
testing shows :
FAVORABLE Match Up
- burn
- Maverick
- combo decks that don't have show and tell in them
- aggro decks ( elf's or goblins )
50-50 Match ups:
- Canadian *****
- Thopters combo ( comes down to who lands a counterbalance the 1st ) ( If Thopter resolves you're just dead )
Bad Match up:
-show and tell game 1 is a horribly match up ( you have more of a chance in game 2 and 3, I bring in -4 pierce -2 cliques and take all my White cards and become a mono blue control deck )
- Vial decks is you worst match up
With the shift away from Maverick, does Choke still pose a threat enough to run stuff like Fortress?
even is choke is not played that much anymore it's still good mana fixing
but if we don't worry about choke, then Hollowed fountain is much better mana fixing.
plus its better if you like shackles.
Right now, I feel no need for additional fixing like Hallowed Fountain. Going down to just 3, maybe just 2 Tundra seems pretty good.
Having to play a Tundra on the first turns against an unknown opponent is the worrrrssttttt!!!
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
Hallowed Fountain is awful.
Most all lists are not even running 4 Tundras because (as noted) basics are so good, and the main thing you want (you only ever need W+fetch all game in case Entreat hits - you almost never even need to fetch Tundra in matches with Wasteland). The only reason the other "dual" lands are even being discussed is because they're not Islands, and so avoid Choke .
A normal manabase has 22 lands and something like 18-20 make Blue, 14-16 make White. There is no real need for mana fixing.
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