Goyf fits what this deck wants perfectly, be a clock that kills the opponent quickly as you naturally cantrip and disrupt your opponent. He is harder to put down, but is critical in a bunch of matchups you cant pretend have been handed over to delver. He is exceptional in the mirror, UR delver, and against random decks.
The reason why other decks have dropped him isn't because he isn't big enough anymore. No, it is because he offers zero utility. A perfect example of this is maverick, who doesn't care so much about spot removal since every creature can both attack and provide disruption.
But that isn't what this deck wants. It wants a clock behind its wall of soft counters and burn. Currently the best 3 creatures for it are Goose (for control), delver (creature/combo), and goyf (creature/combo). Is he the best? No. But he is still unconditionally big most games, and that is all we care about
Matt Bevenour in real life
Speaking of utility, what role does Scavenging Ooze play in this deck? Albeit slower (than 'Goyf), it does offer utility against many m/u:
Reanimator - permanent answer plus G1 threat plus gives 2 answers vs. needle in games 2/3
Maverick, grows huge and shrinks KotR
UR Delver - lifegain plus big beater
Burn, lifegain plus Hellspark
Mirror - lifegain plus shrinks Nimble
Storm - stops PiF, removes Threshold
Dredge - permanent answer plus G1 threat
Goblins/Maverick/Merfolk/Affinity - lifegain plus size
UW - stops SCM
The list goes on and on (my list is by no means all inclusive). I find myself wanting Ooze more and more. While it's slower than 'Goyf, it does provide solid utility. Since we usually only have 1/2 green available, it grows slowly, but Ooze extends games, especially vs. aggro decks.
Scavenging Ooze is a great card, indeed. Too bad this deck only runs 3, maximum 4 green sources for his ability. And he shines in every situation you've pointed out.Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Still, he's better suited in Maverick/Bant, because they can reliably fetch it when they need, and they have MUCH more mana to spend on its ability.
Canadian Thresh doesn't really want to stop Snapcaster Mage or gain some life. It wants to punch people to death with the most efficient beefy creatures in the format, while disrupting what can stop you from doing that.
Please, don't forget this NOT a control deck, it doesn't want to counter and answer everything. You just need to stop what's bothering you, or what might kill you before you kill them.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
I'm playing in a SCG IQ tomorrow in Connecticut with the list I posted -1 bolt +1 dismember I will write a tournament report after discussing how the list performed card for card.
I understand what you are arguing here. However your argument seems to be rather skewed to me. You make the point that I have a finite hand while my opponent can have an infinite number of cards (sure that may be how games actually work, it is your job to figure out how the pieces fit together for you to win). Example from above, if you counter their Entomb, then they Careful Study, they have to have a dude to pitch or they are losing cards. When you construct an argument you can't really say, as you do here, that Tarmogoyf is bad because your opponent could potentially beat you in a counter war revolving around their combo. That may happen some of the time but you probably win the counter battle some of the time too. If you want to counter everything your opponent does, play Athens Blue.
On a different note, you likely don't want to counter the spell that puts a dude in the graveyard versus Reanimator. Countering the actual reanimation effect tends to be more important. Furthermore, if they use Reanimate you might even be able to just burn them out. Burning them out would be even easier, if you had landed a Tarmogoyf that can attack and do some damage.
Let's not forget what "Tempo" is... it is taking advantage of the resources that you have every turn that you did not initially posses. That would include mainly lands and creatures for this deck. If you hold off on landing your Tarmogoyf, on turn two your opponent has tempo-ed you, because you didn't take advantage of your lands that turn. I would argue that a Daze might be enough to hold off a first reanimation attempt. They will likely use Exhume or Animate Dead first to avoid life loss. Sometimes it might and sometimes it might not. Again that is for you to figure out about your counter suite. That doesn't make goyf bad.
This is true and the reason you need to apply you clock as fast as possible and hope for a little luck. Goyf is how we apply a clock. I know that it can be really hard in these match ups pre-board, but that is what you have to do. We don't really have a better creature at our disposal at two mana.
Awesome... play him then.
That might be the case but we don't really have a better option. That is the way it is.
This is exactly right. You don't need to counter everything. Counter the specific card that matters. This is why Legacy is so skill intensive, you have to understand not only your deck but how your opponent's works and how they (the two decks) interact.
As and example here are the cards I would counter. There can be arguments for removal a decent amount of the time too.
Reanimator - the Reanimation Spell... Reanimate, Exhume, or Animate Dead (you can Stifle this too)
Sneak and Show - either Show and Tell or Sneak Attack
Maverick - Knight of the Reliquary and Thalia, Gaurdian of Thraben (you can just kill her tho)
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
I don't agree that you should save your countermagic for the reanimation spells against Reanimator. If they have no creatures in the graveyard, you generally want to counter Entomb or Careful Study whenever you can. Entomb allows them to put the creature that they want in the graveyard, while Careful Study allows them to draw two extra cards, while pitching a fatty into the bin. Sometimes the Reanimator player will have a hand with only one enabler spell (Entomb or Study), but three reanimation spells. If you save your countermagic for the reanimation spells, you will lose in those situations. Unless you have information about what is in their hand (and this deck usually doesn't play spells that give you info), you are better off countering Entomb, Careful Study, etc.
I see more than others do because I know where to look.
Just saw this post, Pherion have you ever played disrupt? It was a 4 of in this decks sb probably before you owned dual lands up until the card spell pierce was printed and it was replaced in the sb with spell pierce.. But my lists all have 4 spell pierce MD so I have been testing 2 back in the sb and the card is INSANE every time I've cast it. Maybe people in this thread don't know how to use the card correctly and think its a joke.. Have you ever disrupted a turn 1 ponder?
Yeah, it's a headache.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Thank you for poorly translating card texts for me, while likely not understanding how this match up works. You have to be the beatdown in this match up as they have a greatly larger mid to late game that trumps ours. I am fully aware of how Legacy Reanimator works. I have been playing the competitive version for about 5 years now (see my signature and decklist below) and casual variants before that for a few additional years. Until I built RUG, it was my baby. You can see one of my lists, now out of date, here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=39923
Yes it does only have two Brainstorms... get over it. Fact is I have monied with variants of this deck for a quite some time and understand how it works rather well. This was the "More Business" version of the deck. It focused on having both more discard outlets and more reanimation spells. The theory was to maximize the likelihood of having a turn 2 dude.
As far as RUG goes, the putting the creature into the graveyard doesn't warrant a response. More specifically that isn't the part of the combo that kills you. The Reanimation spell is what gets them there. And many times when faced with a decent clock that won't even do it for them. Say if they Reanimate and have fetched... you might be able to burn them out or at least keep them from attacking by having a bigger swing back. If your hand has plenty of counter magic, then it is likely correct to counter the enabler, i.e. the Entomb or Careful Study. However in general I would be more worried about the bringing the fatty into play part of the combo.
You point out that the player might have multiple reanimation spells and only one enabler... well as a long time player of the deck that is just about as likely as the opposite happening. You have a few enablers but only one reanimation spell. As the RUG player in the match up you can have no idea what the case is going to be. You could counter the turn one Entomb and then they could Entomb then Reanimate on their next turn. Furthermore, Careful Study and Entomb are both forms of card selection but card disadvantage, which are made rather mediocre if they are unable to Reanimate.
Legacy
Vintage
I really don't get the heat of the discussion witnessed by the post above. Reanimating being a two card thing, it does not matter which half you stop. (Reanimation will not kill you if you have stopped the enabler and vice-versa.)
You will generally find yourself in the position to have to stop the reanimation because often you cannot or are unwilling to stop first turn enablers. If you count Thoughtseize as an enabler this seems fair as (looking at Gerry's list) they have 11 enablers and 9 reanimates. (In a list with Stifle you also tend to have more ways to stop the reanimation.) But if they do not get a creature in the yard in the first turns, I would try to counter Careful Studies which do not only enable reanimation but dig for protection and turn blanks in their hand (creatures) into real cards.
One more aspect, Tarmogoyf hits for atleast 1 more (if not Sfinx or similar goes to GY). This one point of damage might not be irrelevant. It is all situational, e.g. does he fetch basic or did he play from an UG sea? Can you waste him to put him on 1 land thus shutting down all his 2 mana reanimationspells?
Lets discuss more important matters as my recent cutoff:
4 Delver
4 Geese
2 Oooze
2 Goyf
I feel happy with that and 19 lands, cutting stifle and going Spell Pierce x4. My meta is combo (tide/ANT/elves), BUG, RUG and then even mix of all the other DTBdecks.
Seems like grixis might be better in your meta than rug, stalker beats up on rug has real removal for goyfs, hand disruption vs combo and sbs perish vs elves.
I was lucky enough to test the Reanimator-MU against a rather competent player who made Top8 (same tourneys I attend in) 3 times in a couple of months.
All I can say about this MU is that your chances preboard are pretty limited as long as your opponent isn't a drooling moron.
When you play Snare and no Pierce, let Entomb(s) resolve to increase your chances to hit possible Exhumes/Animate Dead. The only reason not to do this is when your opponent is heavily mana-screwed. A 1st/2nd turn Careful Study on the other hand, is something I would let resolve in most cases, since the card might be a bit of a gamble for your opponent, depending on what his hand may look like. The CDA of Study is a factor that can decide about winning or loosing games.
If you run Pierce no Snare, I would definetly counter Entomb, since Pierces become weaker as the game goes on and lists tend to run more basics right now, so this isn't too far away from happening. Careful Study, again, is something you need to think twice about.
Postboard, you obviously don't waste your counters for Entomb/Study since Surgical Extraction and/or Tormod's Crypt are boarded as a natural counterpart for a lesser mana investment. REB, Pierce, and FoW are thrown @ Show and Tell and opposing FoW's/TS, maybe Reanimation spell if it had come this far. If you think something's suspicious (like an Exhume on the stack, where your opponent could cast Entomb after the resolution of Crypt/SE) be aware of the common tricks Reanimator is capable of.
Even if you can get stomped pretty easily, I don't think the chances are that bad, especially winning the postboard games is not uncommon.
I would use at least 3 sideboard-slots for GYH8 if you see a lot of Reanimator, as well as when you step into an unknown meta or a large tourney.
In response...Hypothek!
Here's what I'm playing. Yes, I'm greedy as fuck.
18 Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
8 Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
34 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Spell Snare
4 Spell Pierce
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dead//Gone
1 Fire//Ice
15 Sideboard
4 Disrupt
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Submerge
2 Rough/Tumble
2 Pyroblast
1 Ancient Grudge
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
That is a bit of an understatement right here
Since you seem to know what risks you take with this list (hopefully), I just want to mention that I am not convinced that the split of 8 Fetches and 6 Duals is correct if you really wan't to go that particular way with the deck.
The thought of beeing in better shape against Wasteland with passing more often with Fetchlands is only half-way true.
Comments about the rest of your build are somewhat unnecessary, since it is pretty much obvious what you are trying to accomplish with it. I can't bite my tongue completeley though and have to say that the investment of mana and cards is not favouring you in comparison to builds with Nimble Mongoose.
In response...Hypothek!
The 8-dual/6-fetch configuration may be more correct for what I'm trying to do, but I always prefer to lead turn one with a fetchland against unknown opponents.That is a bit of an understatement right here
Since you seem to know what risks you take with this list (hopefully), I just want to mention that I am not convinced that the split of 8 Fetches and 6 Duals is correct if you really wan't to go that particular way with the deck.
The thought of beeing in better shape against Wasteland with passing more often with Fetchlands is only half-way true.
Comments about the rest of your build are somewhat unnecessary, since it is pretty much obvious what you are trying to accomplish with it. I can't bite my tongue completeley though and have to say that the investment of mana and cards is not favouring you in comparison to builds with Nimble Mongoose.
I generally don't Ponder/Delver on turn one unless I have an abundance of lands in hand. And if that's the case, the hand probably should have warranted a mulligan.
I haven't been happy with Mongoose lately. It just sits there. My control match up is pretty abysmal at this point, but I figure I have enough soft counters to stop them from establishing control before I kill them.
In testing, so far, lack of threats hasn't been an issue. But that may be due to variance and small sample sets.
So far so good, but if I walk into a room of Jace, the Mind Sculptor or Swords to Plowshares, I'd consider adding Mongoose back.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
The worst MU's you can possibly run into are propably Removal-heavy hands with Basics from UW and Bant or Punishing Maverick in general.
@lack of threads:
8 creatures are somewhat fine (the deck ran 8 for eternities), but it is the mixture of removal, threads and Wasteland, at worst all in the same turn, that will catch you with your pants down when you are playing such a reactive list. 8 creatures that need heavy protection are a gift to your opponent when you can't apply early pressure and get into the pro-active role, which might happen more often than you like it, especially against better players that don't fall victim to Daze and Pierce.
Don't get me wrong, I like that approach a lot since I am a huge fan of giving the deck something of its old character back, but I am not convinced it works out better. Planting a Geese and brainstorm away Goyfs was/is boss when you smell removal-heavy hands or couldn't cut your opponent off the colour he needs for his removal and I don't see that you can achieve the same goals here.
Turns must be planned extensiveley, (crap) cards that didn't bother Threshold, propably like ever, are now turned on against you and can mess up the (required) math you do to ride Delver/Goyf to victory in a handfull of turns.
I might have to think about that a bit more and/or test that out, but right now it is hard to believe that this is right.
Greetings
PS:What was that with the Fettergeist? XD
In response...Hypothek!
I really like the list so far. Right now, for the US-meta at least, Mongoose is just a terrible Wall of Denial.
It's a 3/4 flier that blocks Mongoose and Delver all day long. I was originally playing it in a RUG Countertop deck that eschewed Delver for sweepers and other odd cards that aren't played anymore.
On paper the deck looked like NLT, but was too slow for my taste.
Tried the "Fat Ghost" in RUG Delver, but never had three lands to cast it.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Since I can't really tell something about how awkward Geese in the US are (what a pun) right now, which is somewhat of a surprise to me, I have a completeley different question:
What are those Disrupts about?
I get the point that it is amazing to counter Cantrips which your opponents usually never suspect to get dazed, but in the turns you fight over Key-Spells, isn't it somewhat hindering to then have more of a do-nothing card?
Just free taxing your opponent can be huge, also fully agreed, but since most players tend to play around Daze (nowadays Pierce, also), isn't its effect marginal?
Btw, can you write down your current boarding to enable some test of mine with that list?
@Fettergeist:
I was a tad confused that someone who appears to have AE as his mother-tongue said this as a response to a post from a german. Geist is not only the word for a spiritual apparition in form of a ghost/spectre, but also sums up the entity of a single unique mind in terms of its ability to think and feelings that float around it in thinking processes as a whole. Mostly like the word spirit or mind in english AFAIK.
So I thought that Fettergeist (fett means fat, fetter would be translated like even more fat) was ment as either to express the good job I did on what I wrote, or the complete opposite while beeing ironic.
In response...Hypothek!
Maverick
-4 Spell Pierce
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
+3 Submerge
+2 Rouge/Tumble
+1 Ancient Grudge
Reanimator
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Disrupt
Sneak and Snow
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-4 Spell Snare
+4 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast
TES/ANT
+4 Disrupt
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
RUG Delver
-4 Force of Will
and (on the play)
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
or (on the draw)
-4 Daze
-1 Dead//Gone
+4 Disrupt
+3 Submerge
+2 Pyroblast
UW Miracles
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
+2 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast
Dredge
-4 Spell Snare
-1 Dead//Gone
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Rough Tumble
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
