[Deck] Canadian Thresh (a.k.a. RUG Tempo, Tempo Thresh)

[jimirynk]

Ended up going 4-2 to a 10th place finish,

Sneak and show 2-1
Esperblade2-0
Sneak and show 0-2
Rug 2-1
Rug 0-2
Esperblade 2-1

My lose to rug was a blow out I drew 1 land hands with ponder and failed..
Sneak and show got my opp really lose both games but my only pressure I found was mongoose.

[useL]

Really? removing Spell Pierce vs reanimator to fit your fancy cantripcounter that they can play around? I dont buy it.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Really? removing Spell Pierce vs reanimator to fit your fancy cantripcounter that they can play around? I dont buy it.

Then don't play it.

[useL]

Then don't play it.

I want to hear your reasoning behind this first. Isn't it better to be sure to counter their 2nd turn spell than to walk into a 2land reanimate->win situation?

[Koby]

I want to hear your reasoning behind this first. Isn't it better to be sure to counter their 2nd turn spell than to walk into a 2land reanimate->win situation?

TES/ANT
+4 Disrupt
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze

Disrupt <3

[I am the brainwasher]

Disrupt sure is good in combo(esque) MU's or decks with a lot of cantrips, but in my experience, these MU's are favourable already without them.
The problem I have with Random's list is the lack of steam against dedicated aggro/creature-decks while having a mediocre Miracle MU at the same time.
I can see the list doing well, but it is pretty masochistic since it is the most unforgiving list I've propably have ever seen.

[dsck]

"Chalice of the Void"

"Disru-, ooh never mind"

"gg"

[Koby]

"Chalice of the Void"

"Disru-, ooh never mind"

"gg"

Which decks plays Chalice right now that isn't already a bad matchup (like MUD)?

[Awaclus]

Which decks plays Chalice right now that isn't already a bad matchup (like MUD)?

From what I know, being able to win the bad match-ups is more important than completely crushing the decks you would've won anyway. I think Disrupt is indeed better than Spell Pierce, but I'll keep running the Preordains in the slot.

[Borealis]

I don't think I can agree that Disrupt is better than Spell Pierce. It's worse than Daze because you can't cast it for free (essentially making it a turn slower, which is very relevant with Force Spike effects), and it's worse than Spell Pierce because it loses it's effectiveness a land drop sooner. Also, it doesn't counter artifacts, enchantments, or planeswalkers, all of which are very big reasons to run Spell Pierce. You can't Disrupt a Jace. Besides, people already play around Daze against us, which makes Disrupt even more embarrassing when you have to actually hold up mana to represent it.

If you wanted to counter their counter, than just run Flusterstorm. Or Red Blasts.
I get that drawing cards is appealing, but cantripping off a mediocre counterspell isn't the way to do it in this deck. We have access to plenty of cantrips, just use them wisely.

[Tammit67]

Disrupt lets you go for the set up and save pierce/reb for bigger fish. It cantrips, either counters the spell, or timewalks, sometimes both. use it as a supplement. They can't sculpt the 5 counter hands and gas against you in a timely fashion when they have to also worry about cantrips resolving

[Koby]

They can't sculpt the 5 counter hands and gas against you in a timely fashion when they have to also worry about cantrips resolving

This. Most decks that use cantrips to smooth operations will need those cantrips to resolve. Putting the thumb screws on that plan means you buy so much more time. This was one of the reasons why MM was so effective against combo decks last summer. (Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

[Water_Wizard]

Thanks for posting your sideboard list. I noticed we have different sideboard philosophies. I think you should be cutting Lightning Bolts more often. After each m/u, I'll post what I would do and let's open it up for discussion. I'm using the list you posted in post #2774 and the sideboard changes in #2880

Maverick
-4 Spell Pierce
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
+3 Submerge
+2 Rouge/Tumble
+1 Ancient Grudge

+1 Stifle, -1 Daze. One of our best ways to win vs. Maverick is still mana-denial. Wasteland/Stifle/Bolt the mana dorks. Maverick is a Stifle-rich environment with fetchs, KotR activations, Mother of Runes activations, Maze of Ith, equipment, SFM, etc.

Reanimator
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Pierce
-1 Spell Snare
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Disrupt

-4 Lighting Bolt, -1 Disrupt, +1 Daze, +1 Stifle, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Spell Snare, +1 Dead/Gone. I would swap Disrupt/Daze on play/draw. I don't understand why you cut Dead/Gone in Reanimator and Sneak and Show, outside of Maverick and the occasional Tombstalker, it seems like this is where Gone would shine. Gone in response to Grisel +7. Stifle is too good against Griselbrand, Fetches, and Animate Dead trigger. Spell Snare stops Animate Dead and Exhume. Spell Pierce is good, as this m/u ultimately becomes a counter war.

Sneak and Snow
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-4 Spell Snare
+4 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast

-2 Lightning Bolt, +1 Fire//Ice, +1 Dead//Gone. I understand you are running Lightning Bolt for its reach, since you only have 8 creatures. However, Fire//Ice and Dead//Gone have implications against Griselbrand - they become a Fog and Boomerang, respectively.

TES/ANT
+4 Disrupt
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze

-2 Lightning Bolt, +1 Spell Snare, +1 Daze. Spell Snare definitely needs to stay in. Their most powerful cards, Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish, are 2CC (and Cabal Ritual is a 2CC). Daze depends on play/draw, and I might cut them, since Disrupts perform a similar function. If I expected Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm, I would leave in Fire//Ice and 2-3 Lightning Bolts.

RUG Delver
-4 Force of Will
and (on the play)
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
-1 Stifle
or (on the draw)
-4 Daze
-1 Dead//Gone
+4 Disrupt
+3 Submerge
+2 Pyroblast

On the play:-2 Spell Snare, +1 Stifle, +1 Daze. Stifle and Daze shine on the play.

On the draw: We agree :)

UW Miracles
-1 Dead//Gone
-1 Fire//Ice
-1 Spell Snare
-1 Daze
+2 Disrupt
+2 Pyroblast

+1 Spell Snare, +2 Disrupt, +1 Daze, - 4 Lightning Bolt. Spell Snare is crucial here. You have to keep Counterbalance off the board, stop Snapcaster Mage, and Stoneforge Mystic (if they run it). If they are running Stoneforge, I would subtract 4 Daze and add 4 Lightning Bolts. I would also fluctuate Daze/Bolt on the play/draw. Disrupt doesn't hit Counterbalance or SDT, which are both critical stops in the m/u. For that reason, I might lean towards running the whole playset of Daze. However, I like the fact that Disrupt allows you to cantrip even if they pay it (assuming they don't counter it).

Dredge
-4 Spell Snare
-1 Dead//Gone
+3 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Rough Tumble

I think we agree here. I would like to find a way to leave Dead//Gone in the main. Perhaps cutting a Daze or Spell Pierce? Dead//Gone is extra removal and Gone seems good vs. a fatty grave-troll.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I think Lightning Bolt needs to be cut more often. I also think Nimble Mongoose is essential if you expect to play UW. However, I like the direction you've taken your list. How does it work out for you?

[Borealis]

This. Most decks that use cantrips to smooth operations will need those cantrips to resolve. Putting the thumb screws on that plan means you buy so much more time. This was one of the reasons why MM was so effective against combo decks last summer. (Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

I can see the attraction of having Disrupt into Daze into Spell Pierce/REB, or something similar to that in the early turns. Living the dream, as it were. And there is validity in getting a Daze + a card in the lategame, when you have more than 2 lands in play. But the reality is, Disrupt is going to be be dead more frequently than our other conditional cards (Daze, Pierce, Snare if you run it). And those cards are already dead often enough to be challenging. When Daze is bad, so is Disrupt. So do you side out all 7 of them on the draw? What about when they go for Show and Tell or Sneak attack or Animate Dead? Or Liliana? It just doesn't have the utility that Spell Pierce or Daze has. Drawing a card is nice, but not at the expense of the effectiveness of the original card you're trying to cast.

If you just Disrupt their cantrip every time, then they are going to figure it out, and eventually just bait you with unnecessary cantrips. If you have to keep mana open for it, then they can spend more time making land drops and drawing naturally, while you don't get the pressure on them you need to. Late game, it's a marginally better Daze, but it still doesn't have the surprise effect you want. And why bother trying to draw into cards like REB and Pierce with a cantrippy counter, when you can just actually draw them in the first place? I'd rather be choosey with my hard counters in the first place.

I'm not saying Disrupt is bad, I just don't think it's better than Spell Pierce. Or Daze.

[Tammit67]

I'm not saying Disrupt is bad, I just don't think it's better than Spell Pierce. Or Daze.

So run all 3

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

I can see the list doing well, but it is pretty masochistic since it is the most unforgiving list I've propably have ever seen.

It's like playing while sitting on a hot poker.

Seems like most of the questions for me were already addressed?

Thanks, Koby. Huh? Our names are almost similar.

[Borealis]

So run all 3

No thanks. I don't run Disrupt because I don't see the merits of it. You're more than welcome to, but I already have enough disruption without Disrupt. My point was that there are better cards that fill that role. I'm still waffling between Stifle and no Stifle. There isn't space in the deck for filler counters in my opinion. I'd rather have 4 Daze, 4 Force, 4 Pierce, and 4 Stifle than any Disrupts.

Also Koby, Mental Misstep was free, which is why it was so good. Being a hard counter is also very relevant, since it stayed live against any and all 1-drops, even after turn 2-3 when they can actually start holding up mana for Daze effects. Disrupt and Mental Misstep are not on the same level.

[Koby]

No thanks. I don't run Disrupt because I don't see the merits of it. You're more than welcome to, but I already have enough disruption without Disrupt. My point was that there are better cards that fill that role. I'm still waffling between Stifle and no Stifle. There isn't space in the deck for filler counters in my opinion. I'd rather have 4 Daze, 4 Force, 4 Pierce, and 4 Stifle than any Disrupts.

Also Koby, Mental Misstep was free, which is why it was so good. Being a hard counter is also very relevant, since it stayed live against any and all 1-drops, even after turn 2-3 when they can actually start holding up mana for Daze effects. Disrupt and Mental Misstep are not on the same level.

(Please don't try to point out that it counters outright - I know that. The strategy of countering cantrips is the important piece here)

[mike1987]

Do any of you guys still run a couple of spell snares or more? When it is good, it's godsend if not its a dead card in your hand. I believe that most impt cards in legacy are costs 2 mana though. Eg. Counterbalance, Stoneforge, Thalia, Chalice, Infernal tutor, etc.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

A random list of things I hate:

-Stoneforge Mystic
-Tarmogoyf in the mirror
-GSZ for 2
-Chalice for 1
-Thalia
-Counterbalance
-Exhume
-Animate Dead
-Daze
-Burning Wish
-Infernal Tutor
-AIDS

Spell Snare? Stops them all.

I play 4.
So call me maybe.