[Deck] The Rock

[Thorondor]

if you want to build a core list, you need to add some more cards, and remove fancy choices.
I would suggest:

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3-4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

3-4 Knight of the Reliquary
1-4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
1-2 Scavenging Ooze
1-2 Qasali Pridemage
0-3 Stoneforge Mystic
0-1 Birds of Paradise

2-3 Inquistion of Kozilek
2-4 Thoughtseize
0-4 Hymn to Tourach

2-4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1-3 Maelstrom Pulse
0-2 Vindicate

2 Sensei's Top
1-2 Sylvan Library

0-1 Garruk Relentless
0-1 Life from the Loam
0-2 Liliana

0-3 Mox Diamond
0-1 Batterskull
0-2 Umezawa Jitte


there are many choices, one thing I like about this deck. :-)
Kind of hard to settle for one real core deck.

[ryn ball_2]

hmmm true-->Kind of hard to settle for one real core deck.
But we can approximate the list just like Thorondor's breakdown.

Being 'core cards' i agree to lavafrogg's list
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary
4 swords to plowshares

Atm i'm thinking of 3 archetypes of rock that exist

1) controlish rock--something like brad nelson's list
approximate 'core cards'
4 bob, 4 kotr, 4 goyf, 4 totsiz, 4 hymn, 4 vindicate, 4 stp, 1-2 deeds, 3 SDT

2) aggro rock
approximate 'core cards'
4 bob, 4 kotr, some GSZ'able creatures, 2-3 sfm, 4 discards, 4 stp, 2-3 equipments, 2-3 vindi/pulse effect

3) aggro-control rock--i will define this as a mixture of controlish list and aggro list but the sfm package is drop and some GSZ'able creatures retained and maybe dedicated to board control since MD deed
approximate 'core cards'
4 bob, 4 kotr, 3-4 goyf, 1-2 ooze and some 1-off GSZ'able creatures along side 6-8 discards (4 totsiz+4 hymn or 3 totsiz+3 IOK) 2-3 vindicate/pulse effect, 4 stp, 1-2 deeds

This archetypes are only my perspective about current existing rock.
And atm the run a aggro-control build that i havnt test in some tourneys but i started from a controlish list and made some tops in our local stores.

Feel free to share your thoughts :)

[Sughayyer]

The thing is, The Rock is one of the largest archetypes, and you can tune it more towards control or aggro. I think that's exacty the beauty of the deck.

I was thinking... nobody uses that "Dark Horizon" list anymore? With hymn and gerrard's veredict, etc? could that list see play - maybe adding the fourth mox, to ensure all the nice 2-drops DO happen on turn 1?

[ryn ball_2]

The thing is, The Rock is one of the largest archetypes, and you can tune it more towards control or aggro. I think that's exacty the beauty of the deck.

I was thinking... nobody uses that "Dark Horizon" list anymore? With hymn and gerrard's veredict, etc? could that list see play - maybe adding the fourth mox, to ensure all the nice 2-drops DO happen on turn 1?

yeah i term this junk deck as dark horizon when i started playing this archetype using a brad nelson's list, i will play a dark horizon if our local meta is infested with combo decks anyways about the 4th mox d, i rather stick to 3 copies in a deck there are cases that 4 moxes in a deck can kill your first 7 opening hand cards maybe having 1-2 lands etc. 3 copies is still a good number to ensure you can probably get it in an opening hand.

[lavafrogg]

The thing is, we need to stop discussing Archetype: The Rock and get to Deck:The Rock, if we ever want to make progress.

[paeng4983]

@ damionblackgear
Thanks for the stats man. I eying the rock as my next choice for an upcoming legacy here. I felt like the deck has the solutions in all possible situation.

I think I am in the same page as any rock player right now, "what kind of rock will I bring to the tournament?"

As of the moment, I told byron (ryn ball) that im going without GSZ and SFM packages.
Here's what my deck looks like as of the moment:

4 verdant
4 marsh
4 bayou
4 scrub
3 wasteland
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 swamp
1 plains

3 thoughtseize
3 duress
3 hymn
3 surgical / extirpate

2 mox d
2 s.d. top

4 STP
2 deeds
2 pulse

4 tarmo
4 KOTR
4 dark confidant


as for the SB im not yet decided on what to have.
any reaction from you guys?
^_^

[AggroSteve]

The thing is, we need to stop discussing Archetype: The Rock and get to Deck:The Rock, if we ever want to make progress.

where is the "like-button" ? ^^

anyway, i did not post for a while because of exams, but the late discussion here forces me to post even if i got not much time, specially the thing about the dark-horizons list

in fact i am using a somewhat dark-horizon list for a while now and it works just fine, but i have to admit i havent been to any events for quite a while because of university.
my "dark-horizons-list" is a bit different to brad nelsons from a year or something likely ago, but works allmost the same. the main differences would be the following

gerrards verdict = life from the loam
using 4 mox diamonds
using only 2 divining tops (even if i wanted to play more)
using a 2/2 split between vindicate and EE (would love another vindicate but got no free slots)
and using 2 quasali pridemages as aditional versatile threats (could also be terravore, tombstalker or whatever, maybe tombstalker would play nicely with loam...)
..... i would love to fit in 1 or maybe 2 lilianas in the list but i would not know what to cut (depending on the way i want to go: cutting pridemage -> more controllish, cutting EE or something else maybe -> aggro-controllish; and so on.....)

i like the list, and the occasional 1st turn hymn i still freaking awesome, even if lately i have been thinking more and more of turning them into pinpoint discard.

IMO we should not talk about archetypes, we should as we previously did, talk aboult viable packages, tutor packages and other packages, and viable card-choices for each package and accelleration

to list some i have in mind right now:

SFM + 2-3 Equipments
GSZ + Situational very strong creatures
Loam + Liliana (+ Mox Diamond)

Hexmage + Dephts (a bit older, do not know if its still viable)
.......
.......

hymn IMO is not a bad card. Like every other card is has its good moments and its bad moments. I think using hymn at the moment would depend on which package you use.
Using the loam-liliana package, i would recommend using hymns for the occasional blowout turn 1, using one of the other 2 mainly used packages i would recommend 6 to 8 targeted discard-spells

i do not agree with ryn ball_2 though, that a list using hymn would be controllish, and Stoneforgepackage more aggressive, i think its the other way around because lists using hymn will be focused more on tempo then other lists, thus forcing them to be more aggressive, and the SFM tutor package gives more options to stay longer in the game/controll the game in a more versatile matter.

thats all of my thoughts for now^^, hope you enjoyed this long post

[Sughayyer]

The thing is, we need to stop discussing Archetype: The Rock and get to Deck:The Rock, if we ever want to make progress.

Yeah, well. The Rock IS an archetype after all. See, many decks fit into this archetype -traditional BG Rock, BGW Junk, BGW Dark Horizons. It is like "UW Control archetype" - we have UW Stoneblade, UW Counterbalance, UW Landstill, etc. All of them are UW Control, but they are all different.

We have too many options - some like stoneforge, others play 8 pointed discards, some shun mox in favor of maindeck pernicious deeds. Different metas, different styles of play, different decks. Some people stick to builds that just doesn't work anymore, and get dissatisfyed.

I am actually very happy with my build, and it is getting me results. So I'm going to stick with it for a while. Damionblackgear's list is giving him results. He plays that list. sdematt's build works for him. 3 different decks, 1 same archetype.

[Sughayyer]

I was going to talk about the difference among the various decks but 1) I do not feel qualified for that and 2) My computer is not helping me today.

But, we can post different lists (lists that are bringing results) and talk about the differences, and the reason why we choose the cards.

You agree?

My list:

4 thoughtseize
4 hymn to tourach
2 vindicate
2 maelstrom pulse

4 swords to plowshares

3 sensei's divining top
3 mox diamond

1 sylvan library

3 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
4 knight of the reliquary

2 liliana of the veil

lands:
4 wasteland
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
3 scrublands
2 bayou
1 forest
1 plains
1 swamp
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog

side:

2 enlightened tutor
2 pernicious deed
1 engineered plague
1 nihil spellbomb
1 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 elspeth, knight-errand
1 thrun, the last troll
1 life from the loam
1 pithing needle

needle saved my life once, but I'm considering replacing it with a second life from the loam.

I played that list last week and won the tournament (report in previous pages).

[Qweerios]

i do not agree with ryn ball_2 though, that a list using hymn would be controllish, and Stoneforgepackage more aggressive, i think its the other way around because lists using hymn will be focused more on tempo then other lists, thus forcing them to be more aggressive, and the SFM tutor package gives more options to stay longer in the game/controll the game in a more versatile matter.

I agree with you on that. Somehow a lot of people are under the impression that Hymn is a control card because it is a discard spell, or that SFM is a tempo card because it is a creature when in fact it's the opposite.

[damionblackgear]

3-1'd last night using the Madison 75 (I'm lazy and don't feel like looking for the changes yet). Played Reanimator (2-0), Merfolk (2-0), Food Chain (0-2), and UR (2-1).

Still have my $20 for Reanimator. Merfolk isn't bad at all. Shouldn't have won the UR match. Game 3 he drew 3-5 lands in a row where any creature/burn would've done it. He then proceeded to punt by not remembering Dryad Arbor could be fetched. The food chain match was my fault game 1. I had pridemage on the field and swung it to death to allowing him to combo. Game 2 he went off the turn before I would've won.

I'm not worried about that match but would like to stress the importance of discard there. It's definitely a match that hymn would be better against.

[militiaman89]

So i think rock is very well positioned to make a come back in legacy right now. I took the list from eli kassis from last year and made some tweaks. I really would like opinions on stoneforge if he should be there or not and swithing him out for MoM would be better?
Lands
1 [R] Savannah
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
2 [R] Bayou
2 [R] Scrubland
1 [CHK] Swamp (3)
1 [M10] Plains (3)
1 [OD] Forest (2)
4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
4 [TE] Wasteland

// Creatures
4 [CFX] Knight of the Reliquary
2 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
2 [CMD] Scavenging Ooze
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
3 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage

// Spells
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
2 [ROE] Inquisition of Kozilek
1 [ARB] Maelstrom Pulse
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [SH] Mox Diamond
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
1 [NPH] Batterskull
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top

[lavafrogg]

Staying with the topic of the official list, I feel that Stoneforge Mystic is not a card that rock decks want to play and tarmogoyf and green sun's zenith are. We want to be tapping out on our turn for powerful threats and discard and cannot sit back on counter magic to activate the mystic(or protect it for that matter) Maverick can play the mystic due to the high creature count and the need to run mother of runes.

That being said, Tarmogoyf should be a 4 of in any rock list due to its strong presence in any aggro matchup like maverick or rug. He is also a must answer threat against control making him good in any matchup you play(hello combo!).

I still feel he is the strongest creature in the game and any deck that can play him should.

New Agreed On cards:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Teeg
1 Ooze
1 Pridemage

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Green Sun's Zenith

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith

Still Up for Debate: Discards Suite, Draw/Manipulation, Sweeper/Removal, Planeswalker, Recursion

[Arsenal]

I don't quite understand why people have slowly moved away from a 4/5 for 1G. He's the best at what he does for his cost; turn sideways and beat face. I've always been a 4-Goyf player and don't foresee myself opting not to run him unless I have a very, very good reason not to.

[TerribleTim68]

I don't quite understand why people have slowly moved away from a 4/5 for 1G. He's the best at what he does for his cost; turn sideways and beat face. I've always been a 4-Goyf player and don't foresee myself opting not to run him unless I have a very, very good reason not to.

For me it's the fact that he costs at least $100 each and I don't own any. I think that effects a lot of people's decisions on why they don't run him.

[Arsenal]

When we're talking about optimal/competitive builds, cost/price shouldn't be a factor. That's like saying, "whelp, Underground Seas cost $xxxxx...., so I'll run Darkslick Shores instead when I pilot Reanimator".

[TerribleTim68]

Don't get me wrong, I'd run him over anything else, period. But I can't, so I play a different deck.

[damionblackgear]

On Goyf - it's not as good as it use to be. The format is dropping more dangerous Fatties, Playing 30 creatures in one turn, Burning, and giving protection to it's threats/defense. Goyf doesn't deal with these things very well. It was, and still is, good against the more streamlined older decks (Looking at you Canadian Thresh) but the newer ones make it appear pretty mediocre. I like Goyf (don't get me wrong, I really do) but It's not worth as much in a 75 as it use to be.

When we're talking about optimal/competitive builds, cost/price shouldn't be a factor. That's like saying, "whelp, Underground Seas cost $xxxxx...., so I'll run Darkslick Shores instead when I pilot Reanimator".

Sending you a pm on why you're tagged in this Arsenal.

[sdematt]

Terrible Tim, I notice you're from the Northwest. Are you coming to SCG Seattle this weekend?

Also, I'll be going to SCG Seattle this weekend. I'll be representing with Junk this time (finally).

Here's to watching me crush face in a feature match.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

Mr blackgear, I disagree with your view of tarmogoyf. A quick goyf is the most efficient way to pressure a combo deck that wants to burning wish or dump 30 creatures into play. You need to have disruption backed by a clock to bar any chance at winning against these non interactive decks.

Turn one discard, turn two goyf, turn three teeg is about as good as you can do against combo. Waiting to drop and grow a knight is just going to let them set up even more.