Hmm, maybe i need to reconsider with salvation. I just usually read mtg stuff in work (2 child keep me busy at home) with smartphone and that place is full of humongous pictures,banners and other stuff that takes yers to upload.Originally Posted by Finn
I've been doing great with this list in my local meta.
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Jotun Grunt
4 Serra Avenger
2 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of light and shadow
Sideboard
2 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Flex slot
4 tourneys placing 1st, 3th, 2dn and last saturday again 1st. They are starting to adapt but im still having so much fun with this pile so time to take eva green again in tourney is not yet current.
So much love for wisp! Ok, i try to squeeze 3th in my list for next tournanet.
I agree with mindcensor, he is too slow to work in D&T.
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I've been playing around with this the last weeks, and I'm not sure why Batterskull would be a bad choice, since it seems like an obvious choice along with SFM. Could you elaborate on why Batterskull should not be part of this deck?
Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.
Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block...
Played in the Legacy Open yesterday, a little disappointed, going 4-3-1 to finish top 64, but I feel like I could've done better w/more experience and a little better luck. Quick recap, list is the same as the one a page or two back, except I added a 4th Port and dropped a Flickerwisp, and made a couple minor sideboard changes (added Grafdigger's Cage, dropped something I can't remember).
Round 1: Nic Fit (1-1, 0-0-1) Drew 1-1
Played on Table 1... good omen? Game one he goes slowly, I think he's Maverick with a terrible start; name Revoker on Knight, next turn he plays Deed. :( Eventually, starts doing the Explorer thing, and then gets Eternal Witness and Recurring Nightmare, and its GG. Bring in Pithing Needle, and maybe another card or two. Game two I get two Revokers on Deed, Vial goes crazy, stick SoLaS which lets me get through Sigarda and race Sigarda. Game three drags, was going to lose in turns, but he's one turn of lethal.
Round 2: Deadguy Ale (3-2, 1-0-1) Won 2-1
Buddy of mine, knew his exact list. Game one I maul him, with double Plow and double Wasteland (he plays 4 Godless Shrine in addition to Scrublands, as well as Wastes), sit Vial, and Port him for the rest of the game. Don't side anything in, as the deck is awesome as-is versus fair decks. He apparently changed his sideboard, because I get POISONED OUT in game 2 by Phyrexian Crusaders... he added three to battle against white decks, and well, I'm the perfect matchup for them. Game three, he sticks Crusaders, but I stick Serra Avenger with SoFaI, and after having to chump with a Revoker, I'm able to down his Crusaders with shock triggers.
Round 3: UR Delver (Brad Grant, finished 9th) (4-4, 1-1-1) Lost 2-1
I punted this match, and badly in a couple of ways. Even knowing he had a Sulfur Elemental, I walked right into it and misutilized Jitte. I failed to protect Thalia with a Vialed Flickerwisp when I had the chance. I chose to play a random card versus Thorn of Amethyst. I didn't Waste him when I had a chance to keep him on one land. I really feel I should have won this match, and my lack of experience with the deck bit me.
Round 4: UW Stoneblade (6-4, 2-1-1) Won 2-0
I *love* the matchup versus Stoneblade. As aggro-controlly as the deck is, it's really consistent in being able to threaten. This match was pure attrition, and I dominated game one. Brought in a couple silver bullets (Thorn in particular) for sideboard, sideboarded out Plows, as Snaps and Cliques were his only creatures. Game two was even more attrition... came back from two miracled Terminuses and a Snapcaster'ed Terminus, to win handily.
Round 5: UW Miracletop (8-4, 3-1-1) Won 2-0
Again, love UW matchups. First game, he Plowed many things, but with equipment on the field, and my life approaching 30 by the time his hand ran dry, Entreat for 3 Angels was unimpressive (thank you Thalia, thank you Flickerwisp, thank you Mangara). Post-board, I stuck T1 Vial, T2 had Thalia countered, T3 stuck Thorn/vialed Thalia/Wasted Tundra, and then ported him the rest of the game on his upkeep with him only having two lands in play. GG bro. Worth noting, leading with a Port/Wasteland into Vial can be worthwhile if you know your opponent doesn't have Wasteland... he thought I was on Goblins T1.
Round 6: Food Chain Combo (8-6, 3-2-1) Lost 2-0
This guy got a deck-tech, and I wasn't in either match. Stuck Revokers both matches, but Echoing Truth blew me out both games. Tilted myself hard in G2, as I forgot to pay upkeep on Jotun Grunt. Was really, really frustrated, as I had no idea how to disrupt his deck.
Round 7: Esper Stoneblade (9-8, 3-3-1) Lost 2-1
Another Stoneblade match, and one I drew horribly in. Both games I lost, missed third land drop, which is fine, but he had two Vindicates for both in one game, and two Vindicates and Snapcaster for lands and Vial in other game. Literally the only match I had mana issues with @ 22 lands, but tilting nonetheless. Still had a chance, but made a couple of iffy plays re: Thalia and Thorn in game 3 after getting overly tilted with mana screw in game 2 (lesson is DROP THESE CARDS ASAP IN STONEBLADE).
Round 8: UB Control (11-8, 4-3-1) Won 2-0
Played a good, tight player this round. Had an issue with Thalia, where he Dazed something but couldn't pay the 1, and we both missed it until the next turn, but judge staff resolved it quickly and without contention. He was on mull to 5, I beat him down with many things, he scooped once I vialed Mangara in EOT with Karakas. Side in Thorn, and a couple of E-Tutors, taking out Plows. Next game he has control, but I Waste his Tar Pit and Factory, land Revokers at two separate times on Jace, do the same with Pithing Needle, Mangara his Tombstalker, survive *three* Massacres, and actually do lethal with a Jitte-equipped Mom. I admittedly ripped off the top like a fiend in this match.
Overall thoughts: meta much different than expected. I knew a TON of people would be on Stoneblade (based on the 30-40 people I know who played today), but didn't expect to play "fair" decks seven out of eight times.
I really, really like the main deck matchup with all of them... I'm confident I would have won round 1 if I had named Deed on Revoker; I should've won the UR Delver matchup, but my lack of legacy knowledge was really apparent; the Esperblade match was grindy, but I think I could've pulled it out with better draws. I will admit I had no chance to win the Food Chain match, but it is a fringe deck at best, and I feel the E-Tutor sideboard is much better for the T1/T2 decks that give DnT the most trouble (namely any kind of Storm and Reanimator).
Basically, I'm super stoked after my first big Legacy tournament, and excited for more local events.
Re: Batterskull, you're almost never going to be able to hardcast it/equip it/pay 3 to bring it back to hand, and the sting of getting a 5-mana spell countered in this deck is much worse than getting a 3 countered.
As for Flickerwisp, the card is amazing, and leads to BLOWOUTS with Vial on three. Target Batterskull germ tokens, target potential blockers, Vial it in to kill Jitte carrying tokens, protect a summoning-sick Mom, reset opposing Vials, remove their island in first main to keep them off Daze, SFM value, Jotun Grunt value, Karakas function for Mangara, etc. I won a match against Nic Fit by Vialing in Flickerwisp during my opponent's end step, and removing his Baneslayer Angel FTW. That doesn't even take into consideration the lack of fliers in the format.
Some people like Mindcensors, but there just isn't the utility that Flickerwisp brings.
It's not Standard where there are cards commonly chosen for a deck specifically for their interaction with key cards in a common opposing deck. The format is several degrees of magnitude too vast for that kind of thinking. Flickerwisp has decent interactions with some of your own cards, but its versatility is what makes it such a star. There is a Flickerwisp section in the OP for its common uses. It is dated, but should provide a starting place. I think most D+T players are scanning the board for targets whenever they have one in hand.Also I'm wondering why many of these decks do not seem to play Mirran Crusader. Of course I can understand that the 3 mana is a bit expensive, but the protection in combination with swords with different protections can virtually make this creature unblockable.
Further I'm not entirely sure what to target with Flickerwisp. Would you usually target an opponent's permanent making the way clear for an attack, or it is common practice to target your own SFM to find another sword or your Jotun Grunt to reset the age counters? You could even target your Phyrexian Revoker to choose a different card to block...
This leads right into the Mirran Crusader argument. Against "fair" opponents, D+T operates from a position of apparent disadvantage by preventing its opponent from casting their spells when they want to, disrupting their deck from functioning optimally, incrementally gaining advantage, and finally seizing (usually incomplete) control. There really is no room - or need - for an alpha striker. Sure it will deliver the winning blow in a lot of games, but you probably cut Flickerwisp for it. And FLickerwisp grabs games. D+T is in the business of doing a kind of rope-a-dope. Especially, against blue decks like Stoneblade, RUG, UR Delver, and I presume MiracleTop to some degree, you can actually see your opponent's cards in hand diminishing faster than yours while you are just mechanically dodging their blows. If you have an equipped creature dealing combat damage, you can expect to win that game no matter what the creature because D+T is usually fighting to get to that stage. When it comes, the game is basically over. In short, Mirran Crusader is win-more.
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"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
First of all, Quantum and Finn, thanks for your clear explanation about these card choices. I can get on board with the reasoning around Mirran Crusader, although I have encountered several matches where the Crusader let me get to that tipping point faster by getting him through with a sword.
With Batterskull I'm still not entirely sure. Usually when I use it, I never cast it, but cheat it into play with SFM. This does however mean, that if you draw into it and don't have a SFM (anymore) it's basically a dead card. Come to think of it, maybe that's reason enough to cut it from my list and rather have a card which will almost never be a dead card.
4-0 today. Beat spanish inquisition, merfolk, goblins and b/w stoneblade. Forgot to switch 1 revoker for flickerwisp before tourney but never missed that one.
We were testing our decks today for coming sunday when 14 players for my city travels to play legay in near town. Waiting something about 30-35 players to show up.
Any advice about for my sb? Waiting to see lots of RUG (TY GP Atlanta), couple miracle decks, 2-4 dredge, 3 solidarity (Maybe more, 2 from my city and i borrow mine for local player) maverik and lots of random decks (Burn,eva green, painter,TES, u/w thopters)
2 Path to exile
2 Disenchant
1 Grafdiggers cage
1 Tormods crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ensnaring bridge
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Thorn amethyst
3 Enlightened Tutor
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
I played at a legacy tournament this past Saturday with a Death and Taxes Mono-White Deck. I won only two games (not matches). Both of those games I won because of Batterskull being in play. Batterskull may not directly affect the main combo of this deck. However it is a powerful equipment and it is incredibly easy to search for Batterskull off of Stoneforge Mystic. Not to mention it is also incredibly easy to get Batterskull into play off of the same Stoneforge Mystic. And because Batterskull is a "Living Weapon" we don't even need to equip it to something to start taking an opponent to town with it. Now I realize some of the detractors will argue that the card requires 5 mana to re-equip it, but really, 5 mana is not that much. I managed to get 5 mana most of the time I was playing at that legacy tournament (I played 6 games at that tournament and had 5 lands in at least 4 out of those 6 games). So it is not impossible to use this card.
Also, Heya to all of the long time regulars... Long time no see!
EDIT: @Schembo's Sideboard: First things, I would replace the disenchants with Seal of Cleansing's as those are enchantments that do the same thing as Disenchant and are thus searchable by Enlightened Tutor. Also, while Grafdigger's Cage is impressive it is too easy for an enemy to deal with. I would suggest Phyrexian Metamorph instead. Circle of Protection Red is an interesting choice, but are you sure you have enough mana to make full use of it against say a Goblin deck?
EDIT2: It should be noted that you can Flickerwisp a Batterskull in order to get a new Germ Token, assuming that the original Germ Token is destroyed in some way.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I don't think this statement is correct in a format filled with spot removal.
Batterskull should be good against decks with direct damage, but at the same time direct damage spells are good versus Mystic.
And most decks with Bolts will very well capitalize on this tempo loss.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
So you mean like Burn, Zoo, Goblins, and what else?
Last I checked Burn is just about the worst deck in the format. The deck loses to just about anything running blue in it (which is almost everything these days). Zoo has been more or less replaced from what I have seen by Maverick which doesn't run red at all except in some very weird corner cases. And Goblins while still viable is the only deck left in the format that really runs red and truth be told it would be better off filling slots with more goblins instead of direct burn spells for the purpose of killing creatures. Not to mention that for Goblins there are way better options than killing off Stoneforge Mystic (say for example killing off Mother of Runes while she still has Summoning Sickness).
So all told that takes care of the three primary decks in the format that run red. The rest are going to be so rare that you really don't need to sideboard against them unless there is a significant meta shift in your area in favor of those decks.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
RUG Delver is a pretty good deck that runs Lightning Bolts.
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Funny you should mention that, one of the games I actually played was against RUG Delver, and he didn't cast a single lightning bolt on my Stoneforges. Actually for him my Mother of Runes were of higher priority than my Stoneforges were. Considering I had 2 Mom's out simultaneously in one of our games I think that would make her a bigger target than the Stoneforge whose only major advantage is getting equipment cards from my hand or library and putting them into play.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
I meant:
UR Delver (some versions are loaded with burn - even more than Zoo back in time);
RUG (witch could side in Ancient Grudge, so it would not matter what to grab);
Punishing Maverick (some versions run 4 Swords to Plowshares + 3-4 Punishing Fire maindeck)
And yeah, everything around Burn, Sligh and Zoo (theese decks are not showing great top8 performance today, but you will meet them in lower tables of almost every tournament).
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
So by this logic we might as well cut both the Stoneforge Mystics and all equipment in general from our lists all together simply because the numbers are stacked against us in the burn department. [/sarcasm]
Do you guys realize that the argument you are making is a logical fallacy?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Yep, seals are tutorable but same time easier to play around. This sometimes matters when chant allows some combat trics.
I wont go in any tournament with at least 3 gy hate in my sb. And against waht you would board metamorph? Got decent match against sneak and animator without morph and cop:red works on progenital.
Funny thing: Still chuckle a litlle bit when i think about my last opponents face who played sneak attack. First game destroyed his manabase and second game dropped blind mangara on second turn S&T when opponen dropped spaghetti monster
Cop:red isnt my firs thing to board against goblins (ok it goes in) but against burn, u/r delver and zoo. Creature based decks are easy to handle but decks with lots of dmg spells its a fight against time to find jitte and cop buys you time very well.
Just counted my match and i'm played 6 small tourneys (12-17 players) in last 2 months. 26 games and lost 2 of those.
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you would board metamorph in against things like Iona, Griselbrand, and other large legendary creatures that you wouldn't normally want to hit with a swords to plowshares (or can't in the case of Iona), or which it is impractical to hit with slower spells such as Oblivion Ring or Mangara.
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
Yes, i know that metamorph comes in against legendary creatures. I was asking which deck is so much porblem you want to weaken dredge match for switching cage to metamorph?
I like cage against animator more than metamorph. It forces opponent search for hate before he can animate anything and metamorph just answers to resolved threat + it puts it back in gy.
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
really? Your reason for running cage is the dredge match up? Thats like running Ethersworn Canonist against Solidarity. Dredge can easily play around a resolved Cage if it has to. What you need in that match up is a permanent answer to a graveyard, not some temporary answer. Especially when Dredge often runs 4x Bounce spells. Also, Dredge is still a factor in Legacy?
"He's like fire and ice and rage. He's like the night, and the storm in the heart of the sun. He's ancient and forever... He burns at the center of time and he can see the turn of the universe... and... he's wonderful."
And reanimator. Metamorph helps there too but i just explained why i like gace more in that match up. And there might be suprice factor and someone might summon zombardment against me
Canonist comes in against solidarity but first thing to search against them for me is Thorn amethyst.
Opinions are like assholes, everybody's got one
You can't afford to trade tempo for nothing in matchups where you are control.
Mystic costs 2 mana, most playable removal in this format costs 1. You grab Batterskull, so you're 2-for-1 them and the cost is significant tempo loss (1 mana at early stages of game versus aggro is significant).
But since fundamental turn in aggro MUs is much earlier than the one you'll land your 5th land, that Batterskull in your help is a dead card.
So basically a scenario Mystic (=> Batterskull) => 1-mana removal means a tempo loss.
Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.
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