[Deck] The Rock

[lavafrogg]

I just had the best idea for a super long post.... gonna write it on my phone from my girlfriends house, I don't have enough time now... this post is for suspense.

[Thorondor]

aha, interesting.

I play tested yesterday, with the list I posted with minor changes:

against the jesse hattfield Team America, the matchup felt ok, we might have problems to handle delver and tombstalker but most of the time the matchup was ok.

but against maverick it is a different story, somehow I felt behind all the time, even with a turn 1 Confidant which did stick for 3-4 turns, they have so many threads we need to answer: mother, ooze, knight, ....
even my Darkblast main wasnt that much of a help and sometimes I just didn't get enough aggression on the board. Anyone has the same problems?
Maybe I should remove the Mystic/Batterskull/Jitte package and add more Zeniths and fourth Knight ....

this is what I want to try now, any other ideas:


\\ creatures (15)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg

\\ Spells(13):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

\\ good to have(10):
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library


Lands(22):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

[lavafrogg]

In order to beat a deck, or figure out why you are losing to a peticular list, you have to figure out what that deck does better than you and what you do better than that deck.

With similar lists and strategies, like maverick and junk, the pure list has usually proven to be the better/more consistent list. For example: punishing maverick has fallen to the wayside of straight maverick even though punishing fires is a house against most of the format.

If you are using the same list from a few pages back I can see where you would be having issues with a maverick list.

1. You both run Green Sun Zenith: you run 2 Maverick runs 4. With hierarch accelleration and multiple targets maverick is the better GSZ deck out of the two.

2. You both run Knight of the Reliquary: you run 3 Maverick runs 4. With mother of runes and a more forest/plains manabase maverick is the better Knight deck out of the two.

3. You both run equipment: you run SFM into jitte/batterskull. Maverick either runs 2 jittes or a similar set up than you. With more artifact destruction(pridemage) and creature protection(mom) and more creatures: maverick is the better equipment deck out of the two.

I have been trying to correct problems in the matchup as best as I know how and what I have discovered is that maverick has some weaknesses. You can try and beat the deck on any of the above points to start.

1. With 4 GSZ and consistent targets you can be an equal GSZ deck. The only issue being heirarchs but that can be alleviated by mox diamonds. GSZ for either of you is a threat or an answer, draw more of them and win.

2. With 4 Knight of the Reliquary and an on color bojuka bog you can be an equal Knight deck. With mox diamonds you can start pumping your knight earlier. Whoever draws and activates a knight faster and longer will win.

3. With GSZ maximized to kill artifacts you just need to match numbers with equipment but know that 2 jittes is better than 3 mystics 1 batterskull/1 jitte because in the creature matchups whoever has the jitte active will win. With pulses you can keep jitte off the table but you most likely will not be able to keep your own active. Batterskull is mostly useless in a match where mom exists.

Let's look at the advantages you do have.

1. Card draw: dark confidant is your biggest edge in this matchup. With a modified list he will draw you more GSZ and more knights meaning more utility and more face stomping. The best draw engine in legacy continues to be good in this matchup.

2. Discard: with proactive discard you can hit cards in hand before they can hit the board. Always aim for Swords, GSZ and Knights in that order. They have very middle removal so they play what they do have very carefully.

3. Removal. You play more than 4 swords so as long as you can keep a mother of runes busy chump blocking or keeping her team mates out of fights with bears you will always be able to kill what you want to kill.

4. Lilliana. This is your big trump card in the matchup. She has to be killed by the maverick player right away due to their low card advantage and high utility. She should always start of as a cruel edict and then take a card from everyone taking the second creature is pretty gg at any point in the game as they cannot deal with the hole she digs for them.

That being said, this is another matchup that greatly benifits from the addition of tarmogoyf. Being able to get out of the gates faster than the maverick player is priceless. Besides knight the only thing goyf fears is ooze and if he is being chumped by a mother all day that you will have an easy time GSZ a tracker and killing whatever is hindering you the most.

Usually a breakdown like this is easier with two different archetypes but with similar lists you can see how you feel behind all of the time. After board you need an answer for the biggest problem maverick will give you. Mother of runes. She keeps her knights and oozes away from harm while yours are fair game. While she does not stop you from getting a knight/ooze first and wrecking them she stops you from fighting back when they get their first.

I am also fully advising that players switch from pulse/vindicate in the current meta to engineered explosives. Not only does it wreck maverick handily, it answers entreat tokens, elves, Merfolk, planeswalkers very well. I believe it to be the stronger card at the moment. (with or without glissa which is almost an auto win against maverick as I am learning)

Edit: for some reason I used your list from a few pages ago, I think it is valid as what you were testing.

[Thorondor]

thanks for your great post!

lot of interesting things and I agree in most of the points. Not sure about explosives, but why not try it:


\\ creatures (15)
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
2 Tarmogoyf
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Dryad Arbor

\\ Spells(13):
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

\\ good to have(10):
3 Mox Diamond
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library


Lands(22):
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog

[Mirrislegend]

You were there and yet we didn't meet up? Why is this?

I said I was going to SCG Seattle, you should have contacted. You must have seen me, though. I was wearing the black dress shirt with purple tie and black duffle bag.

-Matt

Sorry for the lack of clarity, wrong side of the country: I meant at SCG Worcester. I placed 20th and see this: 18th through 23rd place are conspicuously missing
Also, props on snappy dress at the event. Always dress like you plan to have a winner's photo taken!

@ Thorondor
I beat the living daylights out of Maverick with Hymn. They have ZERO card advantage, just card quality. If you can strain their hand before they have a dominant board position, you're golden. For those wondering, this is why my SB Zealous Persecutions are so good against Maverick: it's card advantage, keeps them from dominating the early game, and killing Hierarchs keeps them from accelerating to good cards (or killing Moms allows you to maintain pressure while they try to hit lands)

[sdematt]

Out of the board, you need to become the "sweep the entire board" deck. They can't bring in much against you, but you can bring in Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, Bojuka Bog, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.

They're better at GSZ and protection than you, so proactively use some discard, then blow out their board. It's a very grindy matchup, but you can do it! :)

-Matt

[Mirrislegend]

Out of the board, you need to become the "sweep the entire board" deck. They can't bring in much against you, but you can bring in Virtue's Ruin, Dread of Night, Zealous Persecution, Engineered Explosives, Bojuka Bog, Perish, Pernicious Deed, etc.

They're better at GSZ and protection than you, so proactively use some discard, then blow out their board. It's a very grindy matchup, but you can do it! :)

-Matt

Don't let it get grindy. Two nukes should win the entire game: one early, another once they stick approx two real threats. They don't have any card advantage at all, so 2 for 1s (or better) will win the game

[Sughayyer]

Currently my sb is:

2 E. Tutors
2 Deed
1 E. Plague
1 Conversion
1 Life from the Loam
1 Nihil Spelbomb
1 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errand
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Changes that will be made: -1 needle + 1 choke.
elspeth goes to main (I'll play 3 pulse 0 vindicate, or 3 vindicate 0 pulse... I'm favored to pulse so I can have a non-white removal)

Now I have 1 free slot in my board, Thinking about:
a) Second life from the loam, so I can surely find it on the matches it is really needed (lands, mana denial strategies, etc)
b) Infest - no need to explain how nice it is agains many aggro/tribal decks
c) E. Plague - If I had the second one, I'd have won that match I lost from goblins, even with chalice (void) at 1 from him (and that's what cost me the game, even with 1 plague on)

Infest is broader than plague and wrecks gw, plague can be tutored.

[lavafrogg]

I have been playing zealous persicution this past week or so and have not been happy with it in many instances. EE or infest do the same thing but hit decks much harder. I don't feel we are that behind maverick to have to play such a narrow card when perish/virtues rain hit just as hard if not harder.

Maverick does not do anything flashy and instant speed that merits an instant speed response. The glissa has been very entertaining to say the least. I wish she had some sort of self protection to make her über rediculous... But you can't have it all.

[Mirrislegend]

The biggest reason I play Zealous Persecution is that it doesn't ever hit any of my creatures. Also, I don't need to destroy everything on their board: I favor Zealous because it hit's Thalia, MoM, and Scryb Ranger (all of which I HATE) and hits hierarch (so they no longer win critter stalemates). Also, it's a useful combat trick, which is just another way to gain some CA over them

[lavafrogg]

Mirri- I'm no saying that it zealous doesn't wreck a good portion of the maverick list, what I am saying is that it is not a broad enough answer in today's metagame. The card has few applications in other matchups where a stronger board control card infest/EE can perform just as well against maverick, killing their weenies, while having strong value in other matchups.

Zealous is a very good card and was better when lingering souls was being played in every decks 75.

P.S. I am playing 3 in the board right now.

On SFM- everyone please refer to the Bryant Cook article on GP Atlanta where h talks about SFM being too much of a non tempo card to play it in UW Fish.

[sdematt]

The reason why it's also good is if you're facing a bunch of Stoneblade. I switched it from Dread of Night since it also has application in the Goblins/Elves matchups, which are becoming more and more popular. It's general anti-small creature hate.

Depending on your meta, this could be a different card. Perish here doesn't cover Goblins or Stoneblade, but does cover Maverick and Elves. Zealous doesn't do the destruction job the best, it does the most matchups the best. Hitting 4 decks instead of 1-2 is why I've switched to it (for now). However, if I saw zero Goblins and Elves, I'd run Dread and Ruin all day long, like I did before.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

I think you should go back to your 9 card anti maverick board. It always entertained me;)

[sdematt]

My sideboard games were always fun against Maverick...for me at least :P

-Matt

[ryn ball_2]

went 36th place (4-3) in a 79-man legacy tourney yesterday, here's my list
4 bob
4 kotr
2 sfm
2 ooze
1 goyf
1 qasali
1 thrun
1 arbor

4 seize
3 pulse
2 gsz

4 stp

2 sdt
3 mox d
1 jitte
1 batterskull

1 liliana of the veil

2 bayou
2 scrubland
1 savannah
1 swamp
1 forest
1 plains
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept
1 marsh flats
3 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 horizon canopy

//sb
2 deed
2 e plague
2 choke
3 duress
4 leyline of the void
2 diabolic edict

R1 vs GW maverick: 1-2

R2 vs doomsday combo: 2-0

R3 vs pox: 0-2 (this deck is so annoying against creature based deck, he totally wrecked me )

R4 vs sneak show: 1-2 (this is so freaking freaking round, i should have won this when i realized my critical misplay )

R5 vs reanimator: 2-0 yehey! 2 void FTW

R6 vs white winnie: 2-0

R7 vs burn: 2-1

Conclusion:
1) NO TRIBAL in my matches, my plague is just a waste of space
2) GSZ package is way to go
3) sfm, still thinking here, i fully utilized sfm tools when i faced burn other than that not so necessary to have them i rather have some pulse/stp/creature, anyways still debating to continue this package
4) 4 LOTV, totally questionable after the tournament i only faced 1 GY-based deck, not totally worth it, maybe it is better to have mix of GY hate just be so flexible
5) freaking misplays made me sick

thanks everybody!

[lavafrogg]

Im so jealous you have a 79 man tourney to play at... Arizona sucks. Grats on your winning record and I wish you did better!

I detailed a few posts back on why people are losing to Maverick and it still applies now. You can either alter your main board or go crazy on sideboard hate. If you don't you are just a worse version of Maverick.

Referencing your points:

1. Oddly enough, the engineered plagues should have came in for the Maverick matchup. in for 2 of your thoughtsiezes, naming human you can fuck up much of their support( Mom, Hierarch, Thalia)

2. GSZ is the nuts and you should run 4.

3. Continue your testing but 3-4 goyf is almost a requirement.

4. With knight>bog and GSZ>ooze you already have a plethora of mid-late game grave hate. You just need something to interact with the yard on turns 0-2. Most people either play Surgical Extraction, for its utility, or Tormod's Crypt, for its power. 4 leyline is only if you really want to never lose to dredge...:/

5. What did you do? I'm interested now:p

[Valtrix]

Any lists running knight of the reliquary and not Volrath's Stronghold seem wrong...

[lavafrogg]

Any lists running knight of the reliquary and not Volrath's Stronghold seem wrong...

+1

I have been saying that for weeks, people disagree with the popularity of Scavenging Ooze... Fuck that card.

[sdematt]

I've never felt like I needed Stronghold. Most of the time, my stuff is getting RFG'd, and only in counter-heavy games would Stronghold be necessary. It could easily be a sideboard slot against Control, for sure.

-Matt

[lavafrogg]

With an active knight, I always love fetching my stronghold to recur any blockers or pridemages I have in the yard every turn, It really helps is creature based match-ups any any time where a pridemage every other turn(depending on mana) would be needed (equipment, tier 3 decks).

Damion- where have you been?