Originally Posted by anwei
There's actually a 3/4 wall for 3 which doesn't have defender, if you need the clock, but which has the small drawback of a circumstantial upkeep.Serendib Efreet?
Fettergeist is, legitimately, a body of the most important size for efficient creatures in the format right now. He's the smallest/cheapest a "big" creature can be to beat bolt, goose, and delver; he's the most important cmc that needs padding; and he's a respectable clock where one is needed. The upkeep is a non-issue unless an army of angels makes him irrelevant anyway. The real drawback is that he's a creature, who requires a slot and costs mana. I think that if you decide you want a creature to hold off creatures or attack, it's sfm, goyf, or fettergeist.
Has anyone tested the red splash with Bonfire of the Damned? I have one left and I think I may try it out of the board.
If you're already splashing red you could try it I guess. It seems like it would usually just be Terminus #5 for more mana (even 2 is way more than 1), and there would still be corner cases where protections come into play (mom). The only upside I see to running it is the ability to kill planeswalkers, which is semi irrelevant as we are the current pw deck.
All in all, I'd rather just run an actual WoG out of the board over a bonfire.
Gegengewicht, Weissagekreisel - Du bist dran.
Alrighty, been tweaking the deck. It's not that much different, but there are some changes. So here's my take on the deck right now.
Main Deck
Lands
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Plains
4 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
Spells
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
Enchantments
4 Counterbalance
Artifacts
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Crucible of Worlds
Planeswalkers
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Creatures
3 Snapcaster mage
Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Disenchant
2 Humility
2 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Vendilion Clique
Wall of Denial
Late, but I win.
I am completely ripping you off, well almost I've been tweaking my list after I posted and it is very close to yours.
CREATURES
3 Snapcaster Mage
INSTANTS
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
SORCERIES
3 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
ARTIFACTS
4 Sensei's Divining Top
ENCHANTMENTS
3 Counterbalance
1 Oblivion Ring
PLANESWALKERS
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth
LAND
5 Island
1 Plains
1 Mystic Gate
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
SIDEBOARD
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Humility
1 Enlightened Tutor
@ Teknique
I hadn't thought of it that way, thanks.
Your dream looks a lot like my nightmare.
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
Don't think dudes other than Snapcaster/Clique are worth playing. They make Terminus less efficient. Also, giving opponent's stuff to shoot at is not very fun, especially vanilla beaters. If you really need a clock, play factories. I've been pleasantly surprised how much they change games. Especially when you really need to deal with a goose it can trade with one or if you have 2 copies, it can be a 4/4 and hold off a goose. It's a fantastic card. It also can knock down opposing walkers, which is pretty useful.
Rip away rxavage :) That's why we're here!
On a side note, I made some angel tokens last night, thought yall nerds out there might get a kick out of them :) I just need to decide what to do for some Soldier Tokens!
You thought wrong.
You obviously don't get the pun :(
Anyway, I may be going against the tide here, but I feel Entreat the Angels is the weakest card in this deck. I've been playing 2 forever but I usually win by Jace out. I usually answer everything they play and get there by Jace out. Entreat is usually a finisher or "victory cigar". The card has very seldom won me any game outright. By the time I can set up a crushing entreat, I usually am already dead or I've already established a pretty favourable board state.
Entreat is shit against RUG, you never have the mana to pull of a huge Entreat, it is really really hard. Entreat is also not very good against GW. Their dudes are bigger while wastelands, Thalia and Teeq make a huge entreat very unlikely. Entreat is hopeless against combo. All that fancy end of turn crap is assuming you get out of the early game, which is when you should be already winning. Against stoneblade or the mirror, entreat is ok. VS stoneblade the card is fantastic because its big and badass and can kickass against lingering souls and Jace.
In the mirror, Entreat is really meh, because if gives them something to use Terminus on. It's a real non factor as the key cards here are counterbalance and Jace.
My verdict: Entreat is the weakest card in the deck. It's too much trouble to set up and not worth it. It rarely wins me games and gets shuffled away early as chaff to often. I always hate seeing it. I've decided to main 3 counterbalances and they've taken over the Entreat slots and also replaced my 3rd counterspell. Counterbalance is just a kicking against so many decks, is cheap as hell to cast and actually does something against combo. Even screwing with cantrips against Sneak Show is already fantastic.
EtA is a core card to me and 2 is the perfect number.
It does what no other spell does and allows us to use Jace's BS aggressively (meaning no need to use fateseals anymore). It's fantastic against several archetypes and being able to kill "now" has won me quite a few games, when Jace wouldn't have been able to get there.
I can't see myself going below 2 for the time being.
Well, that's a pretty radical view of the world you got there... let me comment on a few things:
1) Entreat does nothing against RUG. Meh. Yes, it does not stop a T1 Delver, and not a T2 Tarmogoyf or whatever but I cannot count the times I've hardcasted Entreat for 5 Mana to get a single Angel on the battlefield. And it won me the game vs lategame Delvers/Mongos. Yóu could argue --> Lategame --> You should be winning already! But sometimes both decks have about 0 handcards and are topdecking. And if I topdeck Entreat there or have it in hand already in T7+ it's good.
2) Entreat is not very good vs GW. Blurgh. I do play both decks, but Terminator is my one to go. Due to Entreat. Maverick can deal with a Counterbalance, it can fight through a Jace, it can survive multiple Terminus'. But it can't deal with a bunch of Angels... Never ever. I would suggest you to test this particular MU a little more.
Greetings
I totally agree on how good CB is atm.
Otoh I'm not sure how you got your impression of Entreat. I agree with your assessment against combo (though sometimes it's a great way to get some pressure down without tapping out on your turn), the mirror (generally gets Terminused, though it can definitely take games out of nowhere) and StoneBlade (it's incredible there). I really don't share your opinion against RUG/Maverick.
Entreat is utterly ridiculous against Maverick. If they keep a Teeg in play, that's basically the main way you lose anyway and therefore what you need to focus on stopping. Thalia is pretty bad against Entreat, I'm fine getting 12-16 power of flyers instead of 16 to 20. How many games against Maverick have you actually lost after making 3+ Angels, eot or not? Because for me that number is very close to 0 (not sure if I've actually lost one). If you haven't interacted at all and hope Entreat is enough, sure, you probably loose. Nothing else will get you out of that either, though. In any game in which you have resolved even one Terminus, Entreat will just crush them.
As for RUG, sure, you rarely get to make a bunch of Angels and just lethal them. Trying to do that is misplaying the matchup, though. Just making a single Angel totally stops their attacking with non-Goyf guys, god forbid you're able to make 2. 1-2 Angels is almost always enough to lock up the game and can often be done quite easily while playing around Daze/Pierce given the stalling power of the rest of the deck. Don't be so damn greedy against them. :p
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I agree with how bomby entreat is, but I'm bumbed out by the effort it takes to set up. For example, I hate opening a hand with entreat. It's immediately chaff until the late game. Terminus is fine because at 1 mana, the card is super easy to cast out of no where. Entreat takes alot of mana and alot of setup, it feels weak to me IMO.
My argument is that I can win games easily without entreat, I haven't really needed it badly. If I'm winning games easily without entreat and entreat rarely bails me out of a bad situation, should it really be maindecked?
It's a radical view since its a core card, but could be discussed more. I've always been more of a slim style control player. I try to cut the chaff if possible. I can see squeezing entreat back in replacing the 4th snapcaster and my lone path.
So I've read examples of how entreat is crushing after a terminus. A jace or counterbalance is just as powerful after a wipe. And against rug, sure it's fine assuming you are not brainstorming early to fix your mana issues. That's an ideal situation when you've got entreat floating on your library with top. You are not taking into account the nightmare hands with multiple miracle cards and no brainstorm.
I could handle 6 miracle, but when shit hits the fan, sometimes too many miracle cards screw up your brainstorm choices. Terminus is a must play because the card is the one that saves your ass in any situation for a cheap 1 mana. Entreat is not this card, it needs careful setup and a 4-5 mana to be most effective. You also can't have it sitting at the back of your hand to just plunk it out when you need it. You need to keep it floating with a top or you need to sandbag a brainstorm.
This is my biggest gripe. When shit gets real early, you can't afford to baby sit your entreat. It always gets shuffled away with brainstorm because I need live cards NOW.
Entreat is much more swingy than Jace is. When you drop a Jace, sure he can protect himself, but if the board isn't in your favor he's not going to last long. On a stable board position it's completely reasonable to fateseal someone out of the game.
Entreat on the other hand for x=3+ will swing the game immediately.
That's what I like most about it : it gets you out of otherwise lost situations. Card is the opposite of win-more. Finishers in control decks usually require you to have already attained complete control of the game, which is a pretty huge condition. Besides regardless of their effectiveness the deck is already light on finishers, I would never dare to rely solely on jace (and the occasional SCM). Do you play elspeth at least?
That's why I've re-added SCMs after trying a creatureless build for a while. +3 Brainstorms basically settle the "What if I draw EtA early?" debate.
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