[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Amazingxkcd]

@flipper, may i ask what the BUG nic fit list that you will use? I'm just curious

[Arianrhod]

Qweerios, and Tao (if you still check this thread):

I've started work on the new primer. Although it won't be ready until a while after Ghent, it's a monumental enough piece of work to do it how I want to do it that I figured I'd best get a jump on it. I'm including Qweerios's last updated (7/4) G/B list, and Tao's last known Punishing Fire list (whenever that was), and if you two would handle the matchup analysis section for your respective decks, that would be a load off my shoulders (and a section I don't have to BS because I haven't played your lists).

For example, under the section on Caleb Durward's list, for a matchup analysis with Canadian Thresh, I put the following:

Canadian Thresh - 70% favored.

Canadian Thresh is diametrically opposed to this entire archetype: it focuses on denying their opponent resources while applying a fast clock. Nic Fit is about accelerating your resources, while removing fast threats and deploying something bigger than almost all non-Eldrazi threats in legacy's card pool. In my experience, Nic Fit as a whole is heavily favored in this matchup with tight play. It's important to note that if Thresh gets a 1-land hand and proceeds to draw nothing but business and counterspells, we're going to die. However, those are the only hands they beat us with -- if they "waste" two or three draws on land, we're in good shape.

Cards to watch out for:
--Stifle. A properly aimed Stifle can be devastating, although less so to this G/B version. Veteran Explorer's trigger can be stifled, so watch out for that. Pernicious Deed is a favorite target as well. I'd advise calling Stifle with all primary Therapies in this matchup. The risk is too great.
--Submerge. Almost every Thresh deck is running these as a way to shore up their questionable Maverick matchup. Be careful when you fetch and when you Green Sun -- more of a danger with this list because of the increased number of fetches that it runs. Luckily, you're not generally relying on your creatures to defend yourself anyway -- Liliana and Deed should do most of the heavy lifting.
--Gilded Drake. A lot of Thresh decks are now running one or two of this guy in their sideboard for Reanimator/Sneak. He also happens to be astonishingly good vs all Nic Fit decks. Be careful of your Grave Titan getting stolen. If you fear Drake, hold Deed@2 open at all times, so you can kill the Drake in response to its trigger. If you can't gain control of the Drake, the trigger will fizzle.

If you can roughly copy that format so that it all looks uniform, that'd be great. I'm doing Thresh, Maverick, Stoneblade, Sneak, Reanimator, Storm (TES/ANT), High Tide, Burn, Miracle Whip, Team America, BUG Control, Goblins, and Merfolk -- I think that's a pretty good representation of the meta of decks one might well play vs if one took a deck to a major tournament. There's obviously some other random shit, like Enchantress, but I feel you're actively likely to play vs one of the above decks. If I missed any you think belong, please yell at me now while I've only got the G/B section done. You don't need to do general boarding tips unless you feel like it (I haven't been, this is enough work as it is).

The decks I'm including are Durward's G/B, Qweerios G/B, my Rector GBW, one of the various GBW Rock builds (white only for titan and swords), one of the various Pod builds (probably the one that did well at SCG Open, regrettably), Fact or Fiction blue, Gifts blue (probably using Qweerios again), Valakut/Wish red, PFire red. Then I'm also going to have the various experimental/theoretical decks/ideas discussed briefly in each section: Death Cloud, Culling the Weak@Claymore (split them up), Restoration Angel, Fauna Shaman/KotR [Veteran Maverick, basically], Trinket/Treasure Mage, and 4cc or 5cc builds, using the one 4cc Gifts build that's on Council.es. I'm basically planning on this thing to be freaking comprehensive, lol.

Again, if anyone here feels I missed anything, yell at me now, please, for the love of god.

Qweerios and Tao, if you see this and you can write up those analyses for me, just PM them to me to avoid cluttering the thread. Thanks a ton.

[Philipp2293]

Arianrhod:

Yes, I couldn't find my Vindicate, that's true. Game was really awkward tbh, since as I had ultimated Elspeth and Moat out (had to do this in order to not die to a worm harvest army), vindicating Chasm and alphastriking wasn't an option. So beating with Sigarda with Elspeth pump was my best bet.

At some point in the G1 neither of us wanted to give up since sooo much time had already passed.

Also, since I'm lazy I'm gonna just pick one of the BUG list from the last page. :) Not sure which one yet.

I guess once the primer is updated I'm gonna play the fuck out of various builds at locals.

[wortwelt]

We tested the following blue list for several hours vs. UW Miracles, Maverick, High Tide, Merfolk and Reanimator.


4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Innocent Blood
1 Ghastly Demise
4 Brainstorm
3 Baleful Strix
3 Coiling Oracle
1 Fierce Empath
3 Eternal Witness
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Putrefy
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Fact of Fiction
1 Grave Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star
2 Green Sun's Zenith

SB
2 Flusterstorm
2 Thoughtseize
3 Extirpate
2 Force of Will
2 Counterspell
1 Thragtusk
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Go for the Throat
1 Gilded Drake

3 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
1 Phyrexian Tower


Against basically all creature matchups, we wanted the 4th Deed badly. We cut a Jace, as 2 seems to be the right number. Also, Innocent Blood gives one more sacrifice outlet. The Counterspells from the SB are relatively new instead of the Mana Leaks.

vs. Miracles:
It's not the steamroll as it was before, since our pilot became a good deal better. It seems very important to keep a deed on the board, to deal with an eot Entreat. This came up repeatedly. We basically controlled everything, and then an eot Entreat (off Brainstorm or SDT) killed us out of nowhere.
Otherwise, the matchup seems even to favourable.

vs. Merfolk:
The 4th deed helps A LOT. This matchup is really only about finding and resolving deed as quickly as possible. Since you are playing islands, Lord of Atlantis and Master of the Pearl Trident are very good as soon as they have two. I guess these are also your primary Therapy targets. Postboard, Submerge is a pain in the ass. We tried to avoid playing an Island, but it's better to try to ramp up and search for a deed as soon as possible. It's a race - do they kill you first or can you protect and use a deed for 2 before that happens?

vs. Maverick:
Here, too - the 4th deed is just so good. (However, the matchup already feels like a joke.)

vs. High Tide:
Basically most of the SB goes in. Game 1 is very rough and usually only winnable by Therapying and NOT using Explorer.
We are still unsure what to name with Therapy vs. High Tide. Postboard, we tend to name High Tide or Merchant Scroll or Cunning Wish, since these make nice Extirpate targets. But T1 or T2, we don't know yet.

vs. Reanimator:
Innocent Blood gives one more option here. I like Extirpate. It's so satisfying to cast a spell no one (besides CB players) can say 'no' to.

Basic problems are still naming the right things with Cabal Therapy and closing games. I'm also not sure if Kokusho *needs* to be in the deck with this build. I almost always wanted Grave Titan, especially with Karakas being in a LOT of decks recently. Maybe the list could run Rune-Scarred Demon in it's place? The Demon could simply fetch Nightmare.
I also do not want to cut Oracles. If they hit a land, it's just awesome, especially vs. Mana denial and Tempo strategies. I still think that ramping into Deed is one of the best plays this deck is consistently capable of (compared to traditional BUG), and Oracle helps.

Thanks for reading. If you have any advice and/or comments, I'll be glad to read them. This deck is almost assuredly what I'll be playing in Ghent, and I enjoy it's playstyle and consistency very much.

[Amazingxkcd]

@wortwelt, are you sure that your list is fine with just one fact or fiction and no gifts?

Also, with all of our Nic Fit blue testers that posted lists, We all had approximately the same Manabase. This is just a agreement for this build, or are we just afraid to test other manabases?

[wortwelt]

@wortwelt, are you sure that your list is fine with just one fact or fiction and no gifts?

I'm hesitant on Gifts since I'm not used to the card, but I probably should give it a spin, at least as a one-of. Another FoF would be nice, but I can't / won't find room for it. What would you cut from my list to fit in 1 Gifts and another FoF? I can see cutting the Putrefy, but the other cards are pretty locked for me.

Also, with all of our Nic Fit blue testers that posted lists, We all had approximately the same Manabase. This is just a agreement for this build, or are we just afraid to test other manabases?

I'm very happy with the mana base, although there were situations in which I wanted another Usea (very likely tapped my mana wrong). 7 basics feels correct, but with the experimental Counterspells from the SB, the third Forest should probably be an Island.

[Qweerios]

The 4th Deed is something I settled on a while ago but I simply can't find someone to trade me a 4th one. As wortwelt explained, Deed is what makes Nic Fit competitive, it is our strongest play against any fair matchup.

As for Gifts vs FoF, Gifts is superior, no contest there. Fact gives two piles off of 5 drawn cards while Gifts gives two piles off of 4 tutored cards. A FoF will often leave you with lands, explorers, oracles, therapies, etc... in your piles while Gifts will always leave you with a stacked hand and a stacked GY.

On an unrelated note, Nightmare is win-more in a non-Rector list. I really, really want it to work but it is just so narrow and doesn't accomplish anything new.

@Arianrhod,

I will write you a short analysis of my GB version if you want but I won't elaborate on the blue splash because I don't think I have enough experience with it to be considered a reference.

Here is my last updated list:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Thragtusk
1 Kokusho, the Evening Star

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse

4 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
3 Flusterstorm
3 Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
1 Darkblast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gilded Drake
1 Karakas


The manabase is as stable as it gets. I have 8 fetchlands to make colors availlable and I try to keep the basics as low as possible in order to avoid them as much as possible in my starting hand. So far I have 2 flex spots being Marauder and Pulse. The main contenders are Garruk Relentless, Innocent Blood, and the 2nd Udg Sea.

[Arianrhod]

Alright, from the top:

@Wortwelt -- The Putrefy does feel a little unnecessary. I think my only actual suggestion (ie, not subject to a lot of debate) is to trim out the Putrefy for -either- a Fact or a Gifts. You can do like Witness - Nightmare - GSZ - [creature] as a pile and get everything (aka, set up the Nightmare loop with double Witness in one shot). You also have enough varied removal and wincons that you could at least test the Gifts. If you prefer Fact, though, I'd make it the 2nd Fact.

Now -- two things that are a little questionable/debatable:

What are you guys' thoughts on Consecrated Sphinx? Is it actually doing enough? I've given the blue list to a few friends and they've all reached the conclusion separately that while Sphinx is hilarious and fun, it's not "win enough," and that they'd prefer either another Grave Titan, a Primeval, and/or a 7-drop of some kind (perhaps Avenger of Zendikar?). Something that actually kills people rather than just drawing a bajillion cards. I want to counter that argument with, but if you draw that many cards, you're going to set up Nightmare/Kokusho and just win -- but the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure that argument actually has weight and that they're probably right. This is especially worrisome when postboard is considered, when your opponent will likely have graveyard hate, making Kokusho looping somewhat less certain of a kill.

The merits of the 3rd, or even 4th, Green Sun. The Blue list focuses a lot more on looping for value than the other two, either through Nightmare or Stronghold. The Blue also has a solid go-to 2-drop green creature in Coiling Oracle. How many Green Suns does everyone think is correct? I could see going up to 3, but I feel 4 is still excessive. Maybe if Con Sphinx gets switched out for some green wincon...then I could see adding a 4th. No idea where the room would come from. I know one of my friends trimmed an Oracle for one, but I feel that's probably incorrect -- it's both a green creature and a blue card for Force.

Back to Wortwelt specifically: Thragtusk should definitely be maindeck. That thing is absurd. Room is again questionable, because I like your list a lot. Ideally, I'd like to see the following as a creature base for the Blue:

4 Explorer
3 Oracle
3 Strix
3 Witness
1 Empath
1 Thragtusk
3 6-7s

If you could squeeze in like a Shriekmaw to that, I wouldn't be disappointed, but I feel like that's a good creature base for a blue version that's trying to abuse Nightmare. The problem is, that's 18 slots...you start to run out of room very quickly. Therapy, Nightmare, Deeds, Brainstorms, a pair of Jaces, Green Suns, spot removal, and Fact/Gifts all need to still fit into the deck, and ideally it should run probably 22 land. Still, I feel Thragtusk at least needs to make it in -- he does an amazing amount of work here.

Matchups...I agree RE Merfolk and Maverick. I mean, we can do the best we can do about Merfolk, but they're still going to win games vs the Blue build. That's just the way it is. Miracles is an annoying deck in general - if you want to be sure you have a good matchup vs it, try putting in some combination of 2 Cranial Extraction/Memoricide. If you take out their Entreats, they have a huge problem with actually winning the game.

As for High Tide, g1 vs High Tide is always weird. You just need to try to disrupt them as best you can. If your opponent isn't whiffing off of Spiral, it's probably best to just scoop and go to postboard. Postboard, try to name key cards with Therapy.... Cunning Wish, Turnabout, and Time Spiral are the three most important. They'll expose their cantrips to you as a matter of playing the deck, so that's less important. You're running black, so most High Tide players will side out a High Tide in case of Surgical, so they can Cunning Wish for it later. If Merchant Scrolls and Brainstorms are both important Extirpate targets. Focus on Eternal Witness beatdown, with Witnesses recurring Extirpates as much as possible. You don't need your flashy finishers -- you just need to strip out as much of their deck as possible and kill them with dorks. Jace is also useless. They plan so many cantrips that fatesealing is junk. If you add in Cranials, they're amazing here. Also, don't forget that if they Brainstorm in resp. to Therapy, you can be sure they're putting their two best cards on top of their deck. At that point, it's worth it to Extirpate -anything- in their graveyard...even a fetchland, because it forces them to shuffle away whatever they hid on top. You can make up a lot of percentage points in this matchup just by playing tight.

I wish I had something more to say about Cabal Therapy names...it's really something that you just need experience with. General advice that always works is to try to name whatever you're afraid of at the time. That's rather "noob" advice, because that isn't always the correct line of play, but if you're having trouble with Therapy, that's the best advice I can give on short notice. I'll try to compile a list of situational Therapy names and post it by Thursday, so you can study it for Ghent. I can't promise, but I'll do what I can. Kokusho IMO needs to be in the deck, esp. if you're running Nightmare. I mean, Karakas is irritating and all, but you aren't usually beating down with Kokusho anyway. If your opp has Karakas, or like an active Knight or something, and you don't have Nightmare, just GSZ->Empath for one of your other finishers. Don't forget that you hold priority with Nightmare -- he can't respond to the activation with Karakas at all. He can only respond to you casting Nightmare, or to the Nightmare trigger...but at that point both creatures are in the graveyard. You do have to worry about Bojuka Bog, so I'd be careful with Kokusho g2/3. Try to force them to blow their bog early by Looping like 1x Eternal Witness and 1x Coiling Oracle for immense value. Grave Titan's sweet and all, but a correctly used Kokusho/Nightmare loop is a thing of beauty, and will get you out of situations you didn't think possible.

@Qweerios - Thanks RE G/B. Frankly, the Gifts (and Fact, for that matter) version is new enough that I wouldn't ask it of anyone anyway. It's established -enough- that it merits a section, but I'm going to be noting that it's still definitely experimental. I'm going to be putting in several different possible builds for it, yours included as one example, and I'm going to do the suggested matchup analysis as a rough guide, but not a precise science.

I'm not sure that the white (rector, esp) builds want the 4th Deed. I could see it going either way. Merfolk is entirely about Deed, so I guess if that's a thing again, the 4th Deed wouldn't be a bad idea. I just worry that they'll clog up my hand too much. For the Blue versions, though, I can definitely get behind the 4th copy. Fish is probably too much of a struggle otherwise.

I'll still defend Nightmare if only for the loop with two Eternal Witnesses. 2B for a regrowth that you can use repeatedly is absurd, and has won me more games across multiple versions of this deck than I care to count. If you start running out of gas, Nightmare + Oracle or Strix can refill you pretty quickly. 2B: draw a card is a little expensive, but it's definitely playable. That said, your list has fewer creatures than other Blue lists, so cutting Nightmare in your deck makes sense.

This has me thinking. Have we ever tested 2x Kokusho? 4BB: some trigger + gain 5 + opp lose 5 isn't atrocious, especially with the mana this deck makes....but if we had a 2nd Kokusho, we could do 2B: gain 5, lose 5. Just a random thought. Probably terrible.

Putting a Therapy in a Gifts pile has always been sweet. Just tossing that out there. I agree that in the abstract, Gifts is more powerful than Fact or Fiction. I remain unconvinced that it's worth running 25 1-ofs, because at some point the deck starts to rely entirely on Gifts to function, and I don't think that we want that. I'll do some R&D with Gifts and see if I can reconcile my lovers' spat with it. If I can make it work I'll be very happy. The greatest strength of Fact IMO is that YOU pick the pile you get. With Gifts you have to rely on the construction of your deck and of your piles, whereas with Fact you actually get what you want rather than having to build around getting what you want back. Still, the power of Gifts should not be underestimated.

Have you experimented with the Unburial Rites trick at all, Qweerios?

Garruk Relentless is terrible right now. I put him back in my deck for Jupiter this past weekend, and I boarded him out every game. I fear Relentless's time in the sun has come and gone, and I find myself doubting that he'll be back.

You said Regrowth was terrible, right? Trying to think of what else your floater slots could be. IBlood and a 24th land both feel wrong to me.

How atrocious has Cabal Pit been? Seems like something that wouldn't work at all. I guess you could try a Cephalid Coliseum for a draw engine with Loam? Also, why not a Primeval Titan for your trademark Two Towers? I mean, yeah Gifts can grab them, but that would give you a GSZ-able way of accessing them in case you can't find/resolve a Gifts, and it would also give you a third real beater.

Seems like it's coming along, though, for sure. Any idea when you'll be taking it to an event? I feel like we've been discussing the Blue list a lot lately, but we have little actual tournament testing with any of them. I think that between all of us, we've ran our respective blue lists like 6 or 7 events, all locals. I guess Phillip is running one of them tomorrow, and Wortwelt is planning on going to Ghent with it.

I've got an event on Saturday which historically has an absurd amount of Maverick present. Both the Red and Blue versions shit on maverick, so I'll be running one of them....not sure which at this point. I've been doing some R&D with the Red, and I like where it's going generally, but I'm not sure if it's actually ready yet. Then again, the same can be said of the Blue.

[Iron Buddha]

I have never played this deck, but from my experience with other decks I've always found FoF to be more powerful than Gifts.

That being said, I'm really wondering why the discussion is about FoF vs. Gifts and not FoF/Gifts vs. Jace TMS. Does Jace TMS play a different role than FoF/Gifts?

[Amazingxkcd]

@Arianrhod I don't actually like having more than 2 GSZ in this deck. In fact, I prefer to have only 1 GSZ in the blue version because I have only used it to fetch the small creatures which then fetches the bigger stuff. We already have brainstorm, gifts, and FaF to allow us to dig through our deck for the necessary cards we need, and combining with oracle and strix, how much more filter do you really want? As for Consecrated Sphinx, I view him more as an alternative win-con rather than a must play and win with card. What he does is forces your opponent to deal with it, and is not affected by GY hate as kokusho-nightmare combo is. You are a blue deck. You live off of card advantage. If your opponent lets sphinx be on the field still, you already are in a monumental position as simply drawing 2 cards off their 1 draw is a game winner in itself. I personally don't think that having a sphinx out is ever a bad thing because we can do stuff with the extra cards. I don't think I ever had yet to lose a game when I got sphinx out, even against combo decks and especially postboard like high tide because when they are drawing, you find answers to their deck by also drawing as well. Against fish decks, sphinx is not that good as against fair and combo decks. Then again, remember that playing against aggro and fish is simply going with land deed, stabalize plan. Which leads to my next thought on deed.

As for the 4th deed being mainboard, you only want it against fish, goblins, and zoo decks really. I personally feel that if you really want a 4th copy, then put it in the sideboard, because really, having 4 deeds against combo decks is not always going to work out so well. I never felt like that I really need a 4th deed mainboard because I am okay stabalizing on only 5-6 life and winning from there. That's common for me. If you don't feel comfortable playing with that low amount of life, then perhaps it would suit you for a 4th mainboard, but really, it's just overkill. You already have baleful strixs, oracles, veteran explorers, and with brainstorms, gifts, and faf, you can dig the answers out regardless.

Thragtusk is a fantastic card to play with, except my only issue is that although he is gaining life when he enters the field and leaves you with a 3/3 body, he doesnt actually do anything against your opponent. I'll use the same arguement as I did with swords/path. The only time IMO that the lifegain matters is against burn and aggro decks. You can recurr a lot of life with nightmare, but if it does nothing to really to help bring the enevitiability of the deck like kokusho does. having say 40 life but nothing to do doesn't help but give us time to dig for something to do. It may be entirely possible that I am speaking out of my arse about this notion since thragtusk is awesome in its own rights.

However, if you can get the dream combo of recurring both kokusho and thragtusk with nightmare, then my golly that feels really, really good. Ill still use the same list that I posted last time, except I'll have to figure out how to fit thragtusk in.

Having a second kokusho is a terrible idea only for the fact that we have so much recursion, can-tripping, and the sheer strength of gifts and FaF makes for a 2nd to be more than overkill.

This leads to my talk with karn. Let's say that for whatever reason, they disrupt Kokusho. I have found out that playing Karn, holding it back as been such a GG right there. I believe that everyone playing blue should play Karn as it fixes so many problems and is our best way of saying "Dude, you lost. Just give me the 2-0 already". I would be more than glad to hear opinions on karn, but he stays in my list, even though that cuts into my creature base, which is a bit smaller than what you suggested to Werwelt.

@Qweerios, I agree with Arianrhod's thoughts on your deck, that innocent blood and cabal pit simply don't belong. Those cards belong in a Loam pox deck, not in here. For a guy like me playing 2 Gifts, and 1 FaF, Regrowth has to be in there as a 1 of. It is too good not to be, and it acts as my 3rd witness as my creature base is smaller than the other blue lists due to my greed and my sheer lategame play. Garruk is not that good in a blue list, nor is Liliana. There are better ways to control the opponent, such as Karn (explained above), and more.


Shriekmaw, He's nice as a kill spell with nightmare, but I don't think its necessary in my build because I play regrowth, and nightmare does the powerwork of getting the rest of the cards back with witness.

@Iron Buddha, we play both gifts/Faf and Jace TMS. We are a control deck and we have the space to play both. It's really only a question of what combination of Jace TMS, gifts, and FaF we play (I am staying solid on the 2 gifts, 1 FaF and 2 Jace TMS combination).

[Windux]

In the GBw list I think Kokusho is just "Win more".
You have 2 Baneslayer as lifegain: They need to burn 5 dmg = You basicly gained 5 life due to not get the burnspells on your chest. They need to block them with power 10! But even then you gain 5 life and kill some dudes.
You don't need a sac-outlet in order to get life, but when you need life DIRECTLY AND you have a sac-outlet, Kokusho is faster by 1 turn. BUT Baneslayer doesn't need to get killed to gain life, it just sticks there.
The only way to get Baneslayer without getting life is to GftT/Edict (with no other creature left)/Vindicate etc it.
Thraktursk can be GSZ'ed without getting Empath before and saves you one turn/4 mana.
The ability to just win the game with Kokusho seems only useful against combo-like decks, which are normaly faster in winning, than we putting Nightmare/Kokusho on the table. Anyway, gaining 4-8 life per turn PLUS beaters should be enough and kill the opponent in a nearly the same fast way.
So I think Kokusho can be cutted.

As well, I'm thinking about putting Solitary Confinement into my SB.
It's useful against combo (Rector-Sac in response to Tendrils rocks!), burn, Sneak and Tell, Merfolk and even RUG.

What do you guys think about it?

[Viridia]

I've been tinkering with getting Thragtusk to fit in perfectly, and i'm actually thinking of cutting the 6-drops all together along with the Fierce Empath.
Considering that Kokusho really isnt that needed in the GBW version, as i noticed, i don't think there are other 6 drop targets that are really amazingly much better then Thragtusk/Baneslayer.

[wortwelt]

@Arianrhod - Wow, that was a LOT of food for thought. Thank you so much for your help :) I'm almost off to another playtesting session and will test your propositions.

RE: Miracles. I don't see the deck widely played and I think you are correct RE playing tight to up the win percentage. It's a weird deck since it operates mainly with the cards on top of the deck, a zone one has not the most experience with. I don't think I want cards to specifically deal with them.

I'm strongly considering getting a Darkblast in the SB. (And not just because Caleb Durward conceded upon seeing it last weekend). It kills a LOT of things.

Anyway, I'll check back later.

[Qweerios]

Cutting 6drops is a quest I've embarked on since I started playing Nic Fit. If you can generate the same kind of card quality out of your 5drops, it makes a huge impacton your curve.

As for the Cabal Pit, It has been an all-star. I moved Darkblast to the SB and put Pit in the MB and I don't think I'll be looking back. Cabal Pit is a great choice in a recursive removal Gifts pile alongside Shriekmaw/Marauder, Volrath, and LftL. It kills every creature Miracle Control has, nearly everything Maverick has, and it kills a flipped Delver.

Innocent Blood belongs in Nic Fit (more so than StP) because it has synergy with Explorer. 5 Sac outlets is often not enough and an extra 2-3 IB will give you that extra value. IB is great against RUG because getting rid of their first threat is often all it takes to take the game away. IB is hard to Daze, cannot be Snared, and will take care of Mongoose/Delver/Goyf AND it will blow up your Explorer. From that position, half of what makes RUG strong is invalidated.

Abusing Nightmare is indeed harder because of my low creature count. I chose to play few creatures because I prefer Planeswalkers. They have strong synergy with Deed and can win on their own. Also, it may not be obvious at first but Planeswalkers have synergy with Gifts piles as well. Usualy, my Gifts piles must be hated out by GY hate because they are removal-proof and often consist of either a CA engine, a removal engine, or a threat engine. When my opponent is busy trying to play around whats in my GY, Planeswalkers have free reign over the board, and that's when they shine. Karn looks like a strong 7drop but I wouldn't play him before Primal Hunter despite the tripple G.

@Amazingxkcd

I don't recall saying that Regrowth was terrible but I do remember something about Regrowth being terrible in comparison to Witness. So unless you already pack 4 Witness and 4 GSZ in your deck, I don't see the point of Regrowth (Gifts or no Gifts).

@Arianrhod

I haven't experienced with Unburial Rites because I am not contemplating a 4colored list. I have given it some thought, however, and if it were on color, I would definitely pack it in a Gifts version alongside Grisel/Iona.

[Arianrhod]

@XKCD -- I largely agree with you RE Con Sphinx, but at the same time, is he just "draw more?" The Blue list is already drowning in cards -- is Sphinx really necessary, or should it be something that actually wins the game instead? At what point are we drawing too many cards?

I agree with the 4th Deed in the Blue version, but not the white version (at this point). The Blue version is more in need of repeated sweep, and it also have a natively atrocious matchup that Deed goes a long way in fixing (Fish). Kind of a maindeck sideboard option that happens to not be dead vs other decks.

Thragtusk doesn't just provide you with 5 life and a 3/3 on LP. It provides you with a Green Sun-able creature that is strictly better than Canadian Thresh [as in the deck -- all 60 cards]. The fringe benefit of being good vs aggro is only part of the puzzle. It's also a 5-power dude vs combo decks (where you generally want to board you Empath+6s. Tusk becomes your bomb]. It sacrifices to Nightmare and leaves a token behind to get itself back with. And frankly, 5 life is a pretty good deal for the blue version since the blue version doesn't have any other lifegain option at all. Before Tusk, you lose a point, it's just gone. Hell, even Stoneblade can beat you to death with a Clique -- Tusk gives you a way to recoup basically two turns of Clique beatdown.

I'm going to lump Kokusho and Baneslayer in this discussion, too, because they're directly related. Lifegain isn't life gain for the sake of life gain. You aren't trying to win with Felidar Sovereign for gods' sake. Here's a maxim for Nic Fit, something I want everyone to live by (I live by this personally):

If it's in my deck, it has to serve a purpose.

I've seen so many terrible Nic Fit lists where the builder/pilot is like oh hey, this card is good in EDH...let's try it!! Frankly I'm tired of it. I realize this is kind of a shitty lead in to my argument, but I'm in full rant mode at the moment, so I'm just going to go with it and we'll see where it takes us. Penndot decided it'd be a good idea to tar and chip the road my home is on, so I'm in a bad mood atm =P

What purpose do these cards have in their respective contexts?

Baneslayer IS NOT a 5 power lifelinker.
Baneslayer IS a 5 power flyer.

These two statements are at the heart of what I mean. When evaluating card choices in Nic Fit decks, don't look at the card in a vacuum. EVERYTHING about Nic Fit, and I mean EVERYTHING, is synergy. Let's face it, on the surface, we're a really, horribly ineffective looking pile of random cards thrown together from EDH decks, cubes, and back-of-closet-shoeboxes with a few staples thrown in for good measure. You cannot evaluate cards for Nic Fit in a vacuum.

In the white Rector build, the fact that Baneslayer has lifelink is secondary to the fact that it flies. This is important because the deck runs Moat. It needs to have flyers to actually win the game. It isn't in the White because it lifelinks. That isn't its purpose.

Kokusho isn't irrelevant. What is Kokusho's purpose?

Kokusho makes them lose 5 life.
Kokusho makes me gain 5 life.
Kokusho flies for 5.
Kokusho synergizes with Recurring Nightmare forming a lategame win-condition that is almost impossible to stop.

Gee, I wonder.

All four of these options are things that I have done with Kokusho. But the last option on this list is WHY he's in the deck. It's his purpose. If I'm locked out with an Ensnaring Bridge, I'm not out of the game. If my opponent is an asshole and is playing 43lands with Glacial Chasm, I haven't lost the game yet despite not playing Wasteland. If my opponent is on Enchantress and has Solitary Confinement out with Sterling Grove and Karmic frelling Justice, I haven't lost the game (yet). I have an out.

Simply put, Kokusho gives the deck reach. You know, that term from limited that probably nobody knows because legacy players tend to not like limited (I know I don't, at the least). That is his purpose, not the fact that he gains life.

Thragtusk, then.

Thragtusk gains 5 life.
Thragtusk leaves behind a 3/3 blocker when it leaves play.
Thragtusk synergizes with Recurring Nightmare.
Thragtusk swings for 5.

Anybody have any guesses on why Thragtusk is in the deck?

If you guessed A, you're right! It's actually in the deck BECAUSE it gains 5 life. Why this and not Baneslayer, then, you might ask? Because Tusk is GSZable. If I'm in a pinch where RUG has been smashing my face in all game, or Pox has been derping me in the face every turn with a Shade, or Stoneblade's been Cliqueing all up in hia, or Maverick's been lolKnighting, or -whatever-, Thragtusk is the go-to guy. He buys TIME, which is far and away the most important resource for this deck.

It isn't mana.
It isn't life, traditionally conceived.
It isn't board state.
It isn't hand size.
It is time.

If we have enough time, we will win. Period. Short of like hardcasting a reanimation target, or a tentacle monster, we have the best lategame in the entire format, hands down. This thought process works vs combo, too -- our best way of beating combo is by disrupting them. By giving ourselves more time. Time is everything with this deck, and Thragtusk buys us an awful lot of it. The fact that he's a win condition too is irrelevant. The fact that Kokusho flies is irrelevant. The fact that Baneslayer has lifelink is irrelevant.

No man is an island. Neither is a Magic card when used in Nic Fit. Sure, cards have multiple uses. Am I glad Baneslayer has lifelink? Fuck yeah. If she didn't have lifelink, would she still be in the deck? Fuck yeah.

Frankly, the fact that the 5- and 6-drops in the deck are all beefy has nothing to do with why they're in the deck. I also disagree that the idea of "win more" really exists -- I tend to go with the "win enough" camp. One of the nice things about having Sun Titan, Kokusho, Sigarda, 2 Baneslayers, and Thragtusk as win conditions (alongside Elspeth), is that if they deal with one, cool. If they deal with two, awesome. If they deal with three, well guess what, I have more. Come at me. People complain about how long it takes them to win with Nic Fit, well no shit if you cut all of the bombs.

The funny thing is that I agree that the 5-drops actually tend to be better than the 6-drops in this deck. Kich87 (who I believe has since moved on to another deck) and I debated this a little bit some arbitrarily large number of pages back, and I agree with him. The 5-drops are where your actual game winners are...especially Baneslayer. This is ironically because you can't tutor for them. You grab your Sun Titan as plan A, usually with Sigarda as plan B and Kokusho as plan C. The problem is that Sun Titan gets Swordsed like a boss, and Sigarda ends up having to do blocking duty more often than she goes in for the kill personally. Kokusho takes a lot of time to make happen, so while you're trying to assemble Kokusho, you usually draw into a Baneslayer. And when you draw into a Baneslayer, that's when you usually win the game. You can't tutor for it, so you have no way of finding it early game -- otherwise it'd probably be plan A. But because it happens in the grey void between B and C, your opponents are usually out of removal, and Baneslayer gets to go the distance. If they rip well and she gets stopped, well, no matter -- then Kokusho will happen and you win anyway.

Think of it this way: Kokusho is the manhatten project. It takes some time to research nuclear warheads (assemble enough lands, find Nightmare and Kokusho; Witness Nightmare if it gets killed/countered/discarded). In the time it takes to research the manhatten project, most wars will be won or lost. But for those games where your opponent rips well, and you're evenly matched, Kokusho will break those stalemates clean in half.

Also, on the topic of incidental lifegain, we haven't even touched Phyrexian Arena. See, Thragtusk makes a lot of cards in the deck better just by existing. Your opponents will have to use 2 removal spells on it. That accelerates the "run them out of resources" plan, and means that hey, maybe Sun Titan won't eat a Swords this time and then you just win. Or hey, maybe Sigarda won't have to just sit there for once in her life. Nic Fit is an attrition deck. Thragtusk should be mandatory because it fits the attrition playstyle perfectly, and its very presence improves the other cards that we play. It buys us more life to draw cards, it buys us more time to drop big fat things that end games, it lightning rods removal, it works with Nightmare, it swings for a quarter of your opponents' life, at least, and it's tutorable. I honestly don't know what more could be asked of it.

And if you want to cut plans A and C, have fun in the draw bracket.

@Back at XKCD. I'm pretty sure the 2nd Kokusho idea is just awful. But sometimes awful things need to at least be said so it can be agreed that they're awful =D

I do like the idea of Karn as a huge bomb. I'm pretty sure it's only viable for consideration in the Blue, though, because the Blue has the card advantage and selection to actually find it. As a one-of, it seems fine. It's, again, a question of space. For every Karn you run, that's something else that you can't run, and those decisions add up over time to create a deck. If you want to run Karn, I'd say that comes at the expense of a 6-drop creature. That knocks it back down to 2, which should be fine, since every other version runs 2.

@the Jace vs Fact vs Gifts debate: Jace serves a different purpose IMO. He's an onboard control card that serves variously as spot removal, fact or fiction, or kokusho, depending on what you need him to be. Whereas Fact/Gifts tend to be held until EoT, so as to minimize the amount your opponent can interact with them, Jace just sits there being awesome. Plus, he's compact. Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven both cannot win you the game by themselves. He can. He can bounce their big thing, you Deed away everything else, then next turn they replay it and you -2 Liliana it, in Qweerios' case. He can pretend to be Fact or Fiction and sit there brainstorming every turn.

I guess you could say that he competes with FoF/Gifts room because without him you would run more of those cards, but while we have Jace, it would be foolish not to run him. Those 2-3 spots are fixed...it's just a question of what supplements him.

I don't have any problem with Liliana in Qweerios's list -- with Loam, he can abuse it when he needs to in grindy games.

@Wortwelt -- no problem, hope your testing goes well! Keep us posted, definitely.

Miracles is awkward. If you know they're setting up, you can bring in Extirpates to force them to shuffle, but unfortunately their trigger happens from their hand, so you can't shuffle away the miracle in resp. to trigger. Likewise, Extirpate is awkward vs them because of Countertop. Actually, now that I think about it while typing, that isn't awkward at all. The miracle has to be on top of their deck for it to go off, which means they can't counter Extirpate at all. Of course, this would require knowledge of what's on top....but if they like activate a Draw off Top to trigger a miracle EoT, you can get rid of it in response. Might be worth boarding in.

That's all I've got for now. Hopefully someone can make sense out of my evaluation rant. I have a feeling I'm going to read it later and either be struck by its genius or scratch my head and try to figure out what the hell I was on about, lol. Definitely feel like it needs a tl;dr at the very least.

Edit for Qweerios, who has replied while I was typing what is apparently a small book.

Good to hear RE Pit. If it's working, that's what matters. Innocent Blood still feels weak to me, especially as a one-of. I dunno. It may be better in your meta...it's never performed well for me, although I agree that sometimes 2 Towers + 4 Therapies just isn't enough.

You and I have always disagreed on the 6-drop matter, which I'm fine with. I don't really feel like rehashing my post again, so I'll just leave it at that for now and maybe reply again later with probably a clearer argument on behalf of 6s.

Random thought on the Unburial idea -- what about if we did something similar via Cabal Therapy - [Fatty] - [card] - Dread Return? That might work -- card is probably a cheap creature, like an Explorer, therapy can discard the target out of our own hand, and Return is both easy to hardcast and probably possible to flashback most of the time, if we want to. Just a thought.

[Viridia]

Hmm, i like how you put it.
I'm still unsure about the 6 drops tho, but i have to admit, i haven't ran into E.Bridge/Peacekeeper yet, so they might be useful, but they're only useful in a number of matchups.
In most cases you dont need them, and i don't like the fact that you need to play 3 cards in your deck (Fierce Empath + 2x 6 drops) just for the occassion you might need them, while being nearly useless the other times

[HoneyT]

Kudos to Arianrhod for saying pretty much everything I've been thinking for a long time. I've been playing various versions of this deck for a long time and have been mostly quiet on here. But I felt Arianrhod's small novel warranted an agreement. While I'm posting, I might as well share the list i think is currently the best with the resurgence of tribal and Stoneblade decks

GBr

1 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Broodmate Dragon
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Darkblast
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Innocent Blood
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize

Sideboard

2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Damnation
4 Duress
3 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Red Elemental Blast

I think something like this is pretty close to ideal. I also have lists for the other various color combinations if anyone is interested.

[wortwelt]

Very well put, Arianrhod.

Before Testing, I replaced FoF and Putrefy with 2 Gifts and moved the Thragtusk MD and the Sphinx into the SB.

Testing went as follows.

vs. Merfolk
4th deed is awesome, obv. My opponent played 4 Submerge out of the SB and I had a few blowout games in which I stupidly fetched with Explorer on board. Just don't give them the opportunity.
The main problem is that 2 Lords spell trouble. You need to prevent them from having 2 lords. Since there is no such thing as "the" merfolk list, I Therapy'd for Lord of Atlantis / Master of the Pearl Trident and Silvergill Adept first. Don't expect them to let you block with Explorer. They have not many hard counters, and they can't let you have land.
Be wary of Stifle when you set up a deed.

vs. RUG Delver
Our pilot got a lot better with the deck and now I can see why it's so powerful. The matchup was so interesting, we kept playing sideboarded games all night, with RUG always starting. Being on the play is much, much easier for us. When they go Tropical --> Delver, go and your hand is Fetchland, Explorer, Therapy, what do you do?
They can have Daze, Force, Spell Pierce, Submerge, Surgical, Stifle... Sequencing your plays is crucial. I tried to respect Daze, Stifle and Submerge the most, while playing around Spell Pierce if possible.
I boarded out:
2 Jaces
1 Empath
1 Kokusho
2 Gifts
1 Nightmare
1 Strix
1 Grave Titan

for

3 Extirpate
2 Force
2 Thoughtseize
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Go for the Throat

I'm not sure that's actually correct, but bear with me.

Ooze was actually really important. The lifegain by eating creatures was very relevant, and even if they can shoot it down, you have 3 Witnesses to get it back. It gets huge really fast.
Our RUG player tried very hard to keep me off resolving an Explorer trigger. Innocent Blood and Ghastly Demise did a lot of work. The game seems to center around resolving a GSZ for Thragtusk or Ooze, since they buy a lot of time. When I finally realized that I should be boarding in the Extirpates, their Ponders and Brainstorms got a lot worse.
I can see naming Nimble Mongoose when they T1 Ponder or Brainstorm. To me, it seems to be a viable plan to go after their creatures, since they usually play 4 Delver and 4 Mongoose plus 3-4 Goyf and probably an Ooze. Maybe that GftT should be a second Innocent Blood. I had the pleasure of T1 Thoughtseize and T2 Explorer --> IB, killing their Delver and giving them merely a voluntary free shuffle.

Gifts was in fact sweet if I was able to resolve it. I didn't resolve it often enough though. Being able to play an instant speed draw spell eot to bait a counter was more often than not a reason to play Gifts.

Sphinx might stay in the board. It's pretty nice against Show and Tell'd Griselbrands (since you draw 14 if they decide they actually want to draw cards.), and it's rad vs. High Tide, if you can resolve it. I'm not convinced it needs to be in the main deck, though. Post board, when they think you rely on the GY and board hate accordingly, I can see boarding Sphinx in.


I didn't board in the Counterspells, but they should be handy vs. Miracles, I imagine.

[Qweerios]

I played a small tournament tonight with a very experimental BUG Fit list (I was missing some cards), it went as follow:


Creatures (14)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Coiling Oracle
2 Eternal Witness
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (23)
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Life from the Loam

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (23)
1 Wasteland
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Cabal Pit
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard (15)
4 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime
2 Extirpate
1 Darkblast
3 Mana Leak
1 Gilded Drake
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Karakas


2-1 Sneak Show
0-2 Pox (I beged for Thragtusk so much)
2-0 Delver/Phantasm mono blue tempo thing
1-2 Merfolk

I completely forgot about Carpet of Flowers and I think it could be the answer to RUG and Merfolk for BUG Fit. I liked how Grave Titan brought the pain compared to Kokusho.

[Arianrhod]

So apparently it was clearer than I thought it was, lol.

@Qweerios -- IMO if you don't have Recurring Nightmare in your list, you can do much, much better with 6-drops than Kokusho (Grave is high on this list). With Two Towers you can kind of simulate the effect, but it's slow going. You might want to consider dropping Kokusho from your Blue list entirely in lieu of some other bomby threat that is actually a bomby threat in modern times. If you aren't saccing and recurring him, Kokusho isn't scary at all by modern standards.

The only thing that scares me about Carpets in the sideboard of this (or the Red version), is that it might give you -too- much ramp. I know in White, with just Vets and Carpets, I've had some games where I've just flooded out to all hell. Add in Wood Elves and/or Coiling Oracles to that and it might get silly. But maybe the blue version has enough card draw/filtering that it can get away with it. I'm definitely a big fan of Carpet.

Shouldn't Explorers and Loam have given you a little edge in the Pox matchup even without 'Tusk?

W/o the 4th Deed I'm not surprised that you died to Fish. Gj beating Sneak, though.

@Wortwelt -- you fetch for basic swamp, Therapy. If resolves, you name Stifle. Then next turn you play a green source (assuming you didn't keep a one-lander vs RUG), drop Vet, and go to town based on what is in his hand.

I can't be assed to scroll up through my 80 pages of text that I've spewed out the last couple of days, so I don't remember your board exactly. But I definitely wouldn't board in Extirpates vs RUG, and I don't think I'd bring in Forces either. That would allow you to only take out the Jaces, the Empath, and the 6-drops...leaving your Strixes, Gifts/FoF (whichever you choose) and Nightmare engine intact. Those cards are better vs RUG than Force or Extirpate. Just making their Brainstorms and Ponders worse isn't a good enough reason to bring in Extirpate IMO -- it has to be doing more.

Also, did you actually make changes to your deck or just shoehorn Gifts in, because that's what it sounds like. Gifts has a lot of interdependencies that you have to build in to a deck....ie Qweerios's Loam package. I mean, most Nic Fit decks can take advantage of Gifts somewhat due to our nature, but it gets better if you actually build around it. If you've been testing with FoF this whole time, I'd just stick with FoF at this point. The tournament is in 3 days, and you won't have the time to learn the intricacies of a Gifts deck.

Sphinx feels alright in the board I guess, but eh. I think there's better things you can do with a sideboard slot. One of the nice things about the Blue list is what while it -can- lean on the graveyard, it can also just go Jace-Deed ftw, or hey, I'm gonna punch you with this Grave Titan now. It has diverse enough plans that it doesn't have to be scared of graveyard hate particularly.

@HoneyT -- I feel like your list wants a Primeval Titan to fetch out the Wolf Run and a Grove. I don't really like the 1-of Thoughtseize or the Thrun (but I hate Thrun in general, so whatever). Maybe +1 Primeval +1 Liliana? You have PFire to abuse Liliana, so I'm fine with her here, and in increased numbers. She's a good card, she just requires some building around...too often people just shove her into decks without considering that. If you're running Lily and you have a way of breaking her, run 3 or even 4 IMO. She's good in multiples because you can discard her to herself.