All B/R update speculation.

[Amon Amarth]

ChannelFireball has a new video up regarding this topic: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...-see-unbanned/

[rxavage]

ChannelFireball has a new video up regarding this topic: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...-see-unbanned/

After watching this video I have a new respect for Martell. It seems like he really appreciates legacy now.

[menace13]

After watching this video I have a new respect for Martell. It seems like he really appreciates legacy now.

Martell is a technically superb player. He doesn't make many mistakes. I get more of a feel of that when watching his cube drafting and playing than from him on Legacy.

Although I dont really think he has played with some of the cards on the list frequently enough to consider unbanning them. Some spells are just hard to play against because they swing entire games on one pivotal turn.

I believe Mana Drain to be one of those cards. I'm fine with it but he doesn't think it will be that good because you can't Drain into many spells not currently played. That seems wrong and up until it is legal people can't play a bunch of 4 -5 mana spells. Beside it is still a ritual and most any deck with Islands will play it. Probably won't be RUG or Merfolk and maybe some other tempo decks.

Currently played cards that could be Drained into increasing the speed and protection of a deck playing; Jace, Batterskull, Hardcast Terminus, Humility, Time Spiral/Turnabout, SnT/Dream Halls/Hive Mind/Sneak.

[rxavage]

Martell is a technically superb player. He doesn't make many mistakes. I get more of a feel of that when watching his cube drafting and playing than from him on Legacy.

Although I dont really think he has played with some of the cards on the list frequently enough to consider unbanning them. Some spells are just hard to play against because they swing entire games on one pivotal turn.

I believe Mana Drain to be one of those cards. I'm fine with it but he doesn't think it will be that good because you can't Drain into many spells not currently played. That seems wrong and up until it is legal people can't play a bunch of 4 -5 mana spells. Beside it is still a ritual and most any deck with Islands will play it. Probably won't be RUG or Merfolk and maybe some other tempo decks.

Currently played cards that could be Drained into increasing the speed and protection of a deck playing; Jace, Batterskull, Hardcast Terminus, Humility, Time Spiral/Turnabout, SnT/Dream Halls/Hive Mind/Sneak.

Wouldn't you get the mana for the full cmc of Terminus even if it was miracled?

[Amon Amarth]

There is most likely a deck out there that becomes absurd with Mana Drain. Drain into a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine with FoW backup? Fuck yeah. Control Slaver seems pretty good. May make Welder very good.

Edit: Drain into FoF or Thirst? OH GOD YES PLEASE!

[Lemnear]

Honestly i'm surprised Land Tax isn't dominating tournaments, i mean, WotC said the card was too good for years, so it had to be.

Maybe most People realized via testing that tax is too slow (especially with rack) for todays meta: every Tempo or Combo Deck opperates smooth with 2-3 Lands atm. Tax-rack goes online turn 3 ... Turn 3 ... Team America has already stripped your Hand, RUG beat you half-dead and screws your tax-tigger by Not playing lands, Combo already killed ya, Aggro is a turn Away frim killing you, etc.

Unless we find a much better Card than rack to combine tax with, i cannot See it Making a Splash. Tax is a card from an age there the average Games had 2-3 turns more per Player.



@mana drain

Really stupid suggestion. Before the list Split i remember Crazy Shit with landstill and drain. I can imagine hilarious plays like:

- Drain a knight turn 3, Drop Land in your turn and Play SFM + skull hardcast
- turn 3 Drain, turn 4 Drop jace the walletsculptor, jacestorm, Drop land and have UU and Drain up again

Totally handleable? I have doubts. I don't Even want to discuss FoF, Gifts, S&T, dream Halls, timespiral, etc. It would Warp the meta with force, hell, i Even think Y.Will or Bargain would be healthier unbans than drain

[menace13]

Wouldn't you get the mana for the full cmc of Terminus even if it was miracled?

Yes, if you drain FoW you get 5 mana, same with miracle costs. Iwas just saying some cards played now that could use added Drain mana

Edit; His opinion on Mind Twist I would agree on. In the same vein I see SnT. A card that just herps whatever you were planning and wins. That variance increase is not healthy and requires less skill to compete.

[rxavage]

Yes, if you drain FoW you get 5 mana, same with miracle costs. Iwas just saying some cards played now that could use added Drain mana

It was the explicit "hardcast" part of your post that solicited the inquiry.

[Gheizen64]

Drain yes but Bad Vise and Bland Twist no?

That is some blue loving.

[joemauer]

Drain yes but Bad Vise and Bland Twist no?

That is some blue loving.

Also, probably gush is fine?


Black Vise isn't as bad as he made it sound. On the draw it does one or two damage first turn. It is a dead top deck which is brutal in aggro decks. I guess three on turn one via Dark Ritual equals nine damage, possibly, but still not that scary.

Mind Twist destroying the format! Hymn + Mind Twist = Good Game

[Vacrix]

@mana drain

Really stupid suggestion. Before the list Split i remember Crazy Shit with landstill and drain. I can imagine hilarious plays like:

- Drain a knight turn 3, Drop Land in your turn and Play SFM + skull hardcast
- turn 3 Drain, turn 4 Drop jace the walletsculptor, jacestorm, Drop land and have UU and Drain up again

Totally handleable? I have doubts. I don't Even want to discuss FoF, Gifts, S&T, dream Halls, timespiral, etc. It would Warp the meta with force, hell, i Even think Y.Will or Bargain would be healthier unbans than drain

Aether Vial and Cavern of Souls will be much better in a format where everyone wants to play Mana Drain. Against Tempo decks, however, Spell Snare has a juicy target and Mana Drain doesn't have much to counter that costs a lot of mana outside of Force of Will.

I doubt that every deck playing blue would play this card; few blue decks are currently willing to play Counterspell. Even with the acceleration it affords, Spell Snare will just get played more in the side and Spell Pierce at Mana Drain means you have to pay 4 so early on its not going to let you accelerate into anything ridiculous unless your opponent has an acceleration light hand AND you have something to cast with it.

Mana Drain is a safe unban but blue really doesn't need any help right now solidifying its position in DTB. It already got Snapcaster, Delver, Jace, and Flusterstorm. Its time to improve mono-black.

[dontbiteitholmes]

That video had me LOLing.

Martell is like, "Yawg Will, yeah seems fine. Mana Drain, it wouldn't be too bad. Gush, could be okay in some deck."
Then he's like, "HOLY SHIT, BLACK VISE AND MIND TWIST SHOULD NEVER BE UNBANNED."

He still has a lot to learn about Legacy it seems.

[Tacosnape]

That video had me LOLing.

Martell is like, "Yawg Will, yeah seems fine. Mana Drain, it wouldn't be too bad. Gush, could be okay in some deck."
Then he's like, "HOLY SHIT, BLACK VISE AND MIND TWIST SHOULD NEVER BE UNBANNED."

He still has a lot to learn about Legacy it seems.

This.

While I personally don't think the unbanning of Vise is good for magic in any way shape or form, anybody who advocates the unbanning of Yawgmoth's Will in Legacy has absolutely no idea what's going on. Especially over Mind Twist, which I think would be a high-powered staple that hovers right on the line.

Ditto for Gush, which would just make RUG Delver so tier 1 that the abortion rates across the world would rise sharply due to mothers not wanting their children to grow up in a world where every deck was RUG Delver.

[KevinTrudeau]

Martell is a technically superb player. He doesn't make many mistakes. I get more of a feel of that when watching his cube drafting and playing than from him on Legacy.

I disagree.

http://www.twitch.tv/tommartell/b/324629059

Game start: 51:56

End-over-end punt despite absolutely ridiculous start: 55:49

An exception to the rule for certain, as Martell is a tremendous player, but still, pretty bad; he tends to "play scared" a lot in his style of gameplay, this being far and away the worst case I've ever seen (playing around two cards, Ancient Tomb->Living End, instead of seeing he was dead on-board unless he ripped an answer to the unblockable Sworded dude the following turn). Also, anyone who says Will should be unbanned has no firm grasp of what they are speaking of.

[Hopo]

Let us ban Griselbrand, as it effectively always wins the game and invalidates for example green tribal decks and storm combo.

Also, let us not look things in retrospect and ponder whether it was truly justified to cry for ban of obviously not ban-worthy cards, or if was just our impatience and inability to look at the bigger picture.

Also, let's ban storm pieces and elves, since they obviously invalidate Delvers and Griselbrands.

[Vacrix]

If Gush got unbanned, I have a feeling that Emidln would break the format with Doomsday.

[Lord Seth]

Honestly i'm surprised Land Tax isn't dominating tournaments, i mean, WotC said the card was too good for years, so it had to be.

Enh...it might have been at one point. Kind of like how Mind Twist was once considered so bad it was outright banned in Vintage, but nowadays it sees very little play.

[Lemnear]

Also, probably gush is fine?


Black Vise isn't as bad as he made it sound. On the draw it does one or two damage first turn. It is a dead top deck which is brutal in aggro decks. I guess three on turn one via Dark Ritual equals nine damage, possibly, but still not that scary.

Mind Twist destroying the format! Hymn + Mind Twist = Good Game

I guess in terms of Vice you have to put it beneath Cards like Delver, goblin guide, nacatl or Even burn-spells.

If you led with Vice instead of delver it's a much faster damage output unless your Opponent empties His Hand very fast (combo, weenie, burn, etc) and People are already rightfully ranting about a Blue 1cc Source that Deals 3 damage each turn. Vice does the Same but being an artifact and colorless, which is harder to remove and easier to cast. Sure it gets worse the later you draw it but that is true for a Lot of compeditive Cards in todays Legacy (Lands, hierarch, spell pierce, goblin guide, Even delver).

Vice is 1cc = 5+ damage (opening 7). That's a benchmark hard to beat in tempo, burn, aggro.



@Twist: lol, it's a crap card. No moxen, no cry
@bargain: better ad nauseam so i can Play FoW? Oooookay
@recruiter: stacking, stalling, cheating card; Never wanna See in anything less explosive than vintage
@earthcraft: elves and enchantress would like that. I do Know a Lot of permaments which like to Be untapped several Times per turn. Cute ones: Fauna shaman+ birthing pod
@hiermit: 1-Card combo but fragile. Possible
@gush: lol again. Tempo and doomsday surely need more free draws + manafix in legacy. No 3rd land? Tap 2 lands, gush, replay land: 3 mana + 2 fresh cards + 1 Card advantage 4 free.

[sdematt]

After seriously playing with Mana Drain lately while trying my hand at Vintage, and back in 1.5, I don't want to see it back again.

Mind Twist? Sure. It's pretty slow, and isn't good unless you were running it in MBC or BUg Control.

Black Vise? Control doesn't need more nails in its coffin.

-Matt

[Pippin]

Let us ban Griselbrand, as it effectively always wins the game and invalidates for example green tribal decks and storm combo.

Also, let us not look things in retrospect and ponder whether it was truly justified to cry for ban of obviously not ban-worthy cards, or if was just our impatience and inability to look at the bigger picture.

Also, let's ban storm pieces and elves, since they obviously invalidate Delvers and Griselbrands.

Well what is wrong with first statement? Griselbrand single-handedly warped and changed the meta and pushed some decks on the fringes of playability. Last time something like this happened was when Mental Misstep was printed. Before that it was Vengevine. How did that end up?

I'm ok with Griselbrand staying - IF we'd stop being hypocrits and unban Y. Bargain, Necropotence, Survival of the Fittest, Mental Misstep etc since they are obviously fair cards and don't warp the metagame... oh right.