Timur here; count your blessings that most MUD players are horrible. Beating Nic Fit requires some careful thought and planning since you drop as many fatties as we do. In addition, the Forgemaster builds (which are infinitely more common) are a lot more volatile than my build so it may be easier to hate on.Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Instead of Needle, try Revoker. I use it very aggressively and Nic Fit can do the same; naming any Manastone or utility robot does a lot of work in this match up I am sure. In addition, Therapy works well with it so you don't have to cold read everytime.
One of the keys to beating MUD is making them stumble on mana.
Ive always wanted to try this in this deck. But I was thinking with noxious revival and 3-4 lilianas (and tops of course).
Sigarda can be gotten with GSZ though, and you already want WW later in the game for sun titan or planeswalkers anyways.
Fierce empath, or elspeth is what I would add with ajani out.
I have just always found sugicals/extipates/memorice was all the GY hate I needed.
The white version is a little softer to mav, so it might not be a total cakewalk.
Thanks Timur, unfortunately Revoker is not too good in this deck against anything but MUD really. Stony silence might be a good silver bullet we could use in the white versions. But again, very narrow. We might just have to accept that our hope for beating a MUD player is that they are bad at the deck, or get a hand that implodes on itself after a well hit therapy.Timur here; count your blessings that most MUD players are horrible. Beating Nic Fit requires some careful thought and planning since you drop as many fatties as we do. In addition, the Forgemaster builds (which are infinitely more common) are a lot more volatile than my build so it may be easier to hate on.
Instead of Needle, try Revoker. I use it very aggressively and Nic Fit can do the same; naming any Manastone or utility robot does a lot of work in this match up I am sure. In addition, Therapy works well with it so you don't have to cold read everytime.
One of the keys to beating MUD is making them stumble on mana.
Doesn't Needle suffer the same issues?
Few quick thoughts before bed --
The biggest problem with Revoker is that it dies to Deed, and it's usually brought in vs matchups where Deed is king (Maverick, MUD [although Revoker would do better here], DnT, etc). I think that the MUD matchup is largely version-dependent -- the white version probably does much better than the red does. I have no idea how the blue version would do. Depends on the amount of discard/counters on early mana rocks, I guess. Revoker is a better idea than Needle, at least. You can always Nightmare it back.
At Atlanta I played vs Forgemaster MUD....he played Monolith and passed turn. I Pulsed it, and he kind of slumped in his chair. Then I Vindicated his Ancient Tomb the next turn, and Eternal Witness went the distance before he drew another mana source.......
Kung Fu -- welcome to the Source! I'll give some more detailed thoughts on your list tomorrow morning at work....for now, bed.
@Arianrhod,
I understand how good Wood Elves are for Nic Fit after all the testing I did with Coiling Oracle. There is something about generating ramp with a therapy body that just hits the spot.
I am also really interested in the Valakut version seeing how Burning Wish accomplishes something similar to Gifts and REB is close to Negate. However, I am wondering if Scapeshift is really better than NO.
May I suggest a single Creeping Corrosion in your SB to fight MUD?
@Megadeus,
I don't think Bolt is any good in any version of Nic Fit, partly for the same reasons that StP isn't as good as Innocent Blood. Cheap removal + Legacy staple doesn't mean it belongs in a format-deviant deck like Nic Fit. Your early turns should be spent entirely on ramp and discard because you can handle anything your opponent throws at you later. Playing Bolt (especialy as a 4of) is underwhelming and has no synergy whatsoever with your deck's strategy. I would advise Terminate over Bolt because it is superior removal. What makes Bolt good in a red legacy deck doesn't apply to Nic Fit or any control deck for that matter. In fact, I don't think narrow removal does anything for Nic Fit aside from allowing it to stay afloat a little better. I think cards like Shriekmaw, Fleshbag Marauder, and even Bone Shredder are better choices as they are more likely to grant you more options while still acting as solid removal.
This leads me to Gerrard's Verdict...
I am begining to understand how focal synergy is to a deck with many singletons. I don't think there is ever any reason to run Verdict > targeted discard. This is because TS/IoK/Duress makes Therapy stronger, which in turn makes explorer-triggered plays stronger, just like a snowball effect. Besides, if you want to gain life, play something like Finks/Baloth/Thrag, it will do a better job at it and will take less deck space (GSZ).
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
But Lightning Bolt does kill Planeswalkers, Like Jace, which is a big issue, at least for me in my meta. I really don't like lightning bolt, because like you say, in a control deck like ours it isn't actually just a straight kill spell. But other than Maelstrom Pulse, how else are we really killing a Jace? We usually only have 1 or 2 dudes down at a time mid game so Jace bounces us out of the game, and then once they get rid of our threats they brainstorm us into stupid card advantage. I just haven't figured out how to beat Jace. It may be a mental thing, but it is just very difficult.
RE: From Ghent, just a couple notes before I am off to work. Spoiler Alert: I didn't win the GP. My throat decided to get sore on Thurday instead, which caused a cold at the GP weekend. I went there despite better judgment. Results may reflect bad play due to being on painkillers.
Deck: Nic Fit Blue
Main Event: 1-3 drop
8man 1: Out against UR Delver and Mulligans.
8man 2: Beat Miracles, out against Dredge.
6 round Legacy Win a box of Revised: 2-1-3 (yes, 3 unintentional draws.)
More detailed report later. Short version:
Deck has potential, but is veeeeeeery slow. A more midrang-y approach may possibly be good. Cabal Therapy'ing well is a huge factor. I need to play more sanctioned Legacy, since it's the best practice. Don't play GPs if you are not feeling well.
Okay, I'm going to save reviewing KungFu's deck until the end of this post and get all the little comments out of the way first.
@Wortwelt - shame you got sick on your way =( It always sucks when you fall ill just before an event you were really looking forward to. I'd definitely be interested to hear what was working well for you and what wasn't, to the best of your ability to recall through the medication anyway.
@Qweerios - Corrosion is definitely something I've considered. The main reason I haven't been running it is because of how specific it is -- well, or Seeds of Innocence, which would probably get the nod. MUD/Affinity/Thopters are such uncommon decks that I have a hard time justifying the spot. I guess if I were to play it at Mythic again in the future, I would probably consider it just as a meta call for Timur =P Although, there's the question of whether it would even actually fix the matchup, or if we're better to just write it off as not worth the trouble.
I'll defend Scapeshift tooth and nail in the Red version. The amount of games it wins is just astonishing, and unlike NO, it can actually win the turn before you're going to die. I would have probably only won half the games I did if I was running NO instead of Scapeshift. That said, there's is an interesting idea there: running a NO in the sideboard. Being able to wish for NO to sac like a Wood Elves or something for a Primeval Titan (or something fatter still, like a Woodfall Primus or some shit) is a really, really interesting idea.
I think that for Megadeus needs Bolt to do, Bolt will do. I'd advise him to move into a Punishing Fire build eventually as his budget allows it, but I think that for a budget version, running Bolt in a straight Jund list is at the very least acceptable, if not optimal. Random dorks, Bolt, REB, and Pulse gives enough outs to Jace & friends. But yeah, I agree that Bolt will under-perform in the long-run.
I also agree RE Verdict. You could probably still make an argument for Hymn in some straight green/black builds, just because of how damaging the random discard is. But wherever possible, targeted is going to be better, because of not just the reasons that you listed, but also because it lets you sculpt what your opponent is going to do with the mana they're getting off of Explorer. That's one of the core reasons the deck works at all, IMO -- Therapy provides not only a sac outlet for Explorer, but it also controls what they're doing with their mana because on the flashback you've got at least one guaranteed hit. The best card in their hand -will- be gone (if they Brainstorm, they'll be shuffling away their best card anyway, unless they don't want lands, which is fine too).
Okay, now that that's done, @Kung Fu English:
As Architect pointed out, 20 lands including Arbor is wayyyyy too low. We're going to start off immediately by cutting Arbor, and we're going to want to cut probably 2 more cards somewhere along the way for two more lands. Hey, how about those Gerrard's Verdicts that are terrible....
-1 Arbor
-2 Verdict
-1 Verdant Catacombs
+2 Windswept Heath
+1 Savannah
+1 Plains
That actually brings you to my exact mana base, which has never given me any trouble at all. I'd also do a little diversification:
-1 Pulse
+1 Vindicate
There's no real reason not to do a 1/1 split, since you can recur with Witness. Pulse is generally the better of the two, but sometimes you really, really need to kill a land, and Vindicate is your go-to for that since you aren't running Rector. Maze of Ith out of Maverick comes to mind, as does Glacial Chasm from lands [primarily]. Academy Ruins is a bitch to deal with as well, especially vs something like Thopters...you're a Deed deck, and you really want that shit to stay gone, lol.
Sigarda is hands down better than 'Monger, as sad as it makes me to say that. With the mana base changes I'm recommending, you won't have any trouble with WW at all. You want to have WW at that time anyway because of Sun Titan. Also, don't pshaw Baneslayer. Baneslayer is actually amazing, and legacy in general is really, really ill-advised to handle her, as others in the thread will attest. I agree with you that 5 is our sweet spot. The 6-drops are still valuable because they're the atomic warheads....they rip things apart when the 5's aren't sufficient, which can happen. Also, Sun Titan + Deed. Just saying. Anyway.
-1 Spiritmonger =(
+1 Sigarda
Again, Liliana in a deck with no way to break her symmetry is bad.
-2 Liliana of the Veil
+1 Fierce Empath
+1 Garruk Relentless
Since you're running Master, I'm assuming you like the synergy between Master and Garruk. Let's emphasize that a little bit more. Both of your six-drops are non-green, which means you want a Fierce Empath to be able to tutor for them off of a GSZ.
-1 Ajani
+1 Ulvenwald Tracker
This guy's a little bit of spice. We've talked about him a little a few pages back, and dismissed him -- but that's because the lists we were talking about weren't running Garruk. Having a backup fight effect for deathtouch wolves is pretty legit, and if you happen to live the dream and punch something with a Baneslayer or a Grave Titan, well that's cool too. You aren't running Moat, so you don't really need Elspeth like the Rector builds do. One last maindeck tweak...
-1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Baneslayer Angel
Just try her out. You don't really need Finks anymore, because now we have Thragtusk, which is the card Finks wishes it was. I run two Baneslayers, but I also run Moat, so the flying is important to me....if you really wanted to put in a 2nd, I'd probably say to cut the Thrun for the 2nd copy, but I think you'll be okay with one for the moment. Garruk can tutor for it if you really need to find it....otherwise it'll just be a random good bomb for the midgame off of Top.
Now, sideboard...
You're a little heavy on graveyard hate. I'd suggest the following:
-3 Leyline
-1 Surgical
-1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
+1 Extirpate
+1 Cranial Extraction
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Ichneumon Druid
Feel free to correct me if my assumptions are wrong -- I'm guessing that the Leylines are because of some storm in your area. You have a lot of lifegain main, so I'm imagine you're worried about burn. If that's why there were Leylines, then I'd suggest a CoP:Red, an Aegis of Honor, or putting a Leyline back in. You can hardcast it -- you don't need to run that many of them. But IMO Thragtusk has kind of invalidated Leyline as a sideboard choice. The Druid's a flex spot -- he's meant for Storm specifically, but like I said, my read might be off on that. Otherwise, Extirpate is better than Surgical....Extirpate and Cranial/Mem is how you beat Reanimator and Sneak, while being good vs every other combo deck under the sun too. Don't forget that Cranial and Mem also take things from graveyards....they're graveyard hate that's good vs other decks, unlike some other options.
That's pretty much all I've got. You might want to find room for some Carpet of Flowers in your board since you don't have an alternative ramp engine due to the white version, but that depends on your meta.
What do you guys think of Blightning? Is it just a slower bad version of Hymn to Tourach? Killing a Jace and getting 2 cards seems like a blowout, but I may just be living in magical christmas land. As you guys can see, I am terrified of that Planeswalker. I don't think I have ever beaten any UW based control deck. I think I have only ever won 1 game against any of them.
I'm still trying to figure out which way I should go for my list. I have
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Grove of the burnwillows
3 Lily
1 Garruk, Primal hunter
Most of the staples, no rectors, nightmare, or kokusho.
The blue splash isn't really an option as I don't have any JTMS and I'd have to trade up heavily for the trops.
But I haven't really found a straight G/B build I like, and the punishing fire build isn't that great either.
Any help would be appreciated.
I mean you have the most important stuff for the Rector Build (Lands). It just depends on the list you like the most. Your playstyle, meta, stuff like that.
What PFire build have you tried, Starscream? I know Tao had one some fairly large number of pages back that was pretty sweet. You do basically have the manabase for Rector, Rock, and Pod...I mean, I'd sooner trade for that stuff than for Trops, if you have trade materials. BUG is definitely outside of your range. You can't really do Scapeshift either, because that requires Taigas and Badlands. I'd say you could do straight G/B (Durwardian or Qweeriosian), Pod, Rector, or Rock from the established archetype, or you could look into Culling, Cloud, Angel, or Fauna of the various experimental ideas. I'd probably say to stick with one of the established decks though, unless you're feeling pretty adventurous. It also depends on what staples we're talking about here. Rector requires a Moat, which is a pretty expensive "staple." If you don't have access to one, you probably don't want to do Rector.
@Megadeus -- Blightning's awful, because it isn't targeted. They don't discard two target cards...they get to choose. Generally speaking, you don't want your opponent making choices for you. If you're really that scared of Jace, Bolt will get the job done. But I think that once you're more used to the deck and you're a little less scared of Jace, you'll find that there are better versions of Red than straight red (ie, PFire or Scapeshift).
EDIT
On a partially related note, the decklists from ELL are up: http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverag...ell-2012-julio
That Jund list looks absolutely atrocious. No idea how it got 2nd.
Yeah, I was thinking about doing GBw for Sigarda and perhaps STP but not sure which planeswalkers to use in that case. I don't really want to go into rectors because as you said Moat is the main reason to run it.
Yeah. Sounds like you want something like this....
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Wall of Blossoms
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Wickerbough Elder
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Master of the Wild Hunt
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Dismember
3x Swords to Plowshares
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
2x Liliana of the Veil
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Forest
2x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Windswept Heath
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
//SB
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Choke
3x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Extirpate
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Gaddock Teeg
2x Damnation
This is the Rock build that Chris Higashi took to the top 8 of SCG Phoenix in April. It's obviously out of date, and there's some questionable choices IMO (why does everyone insist on running Liliana with no way of breaking her, seriously). Still, it's a shell to start with. The very first thing I'd do is get rid of the Thruns for a Sigarda and a Thragtusk, but even beyond that there's a lot of updating and housecleaning to do, I'm afraid. Still, I'd say it's a good starting point for what it sounds like you want to do.
Yes. I think Primeval would work here better than grave titan.
Adding in thragtusk and removing the finks works as well.
Is nightmare viable as a one of there?
Do I need more finishers?
Is Garruk Relentless better than primal hunter and/or lily in these colors?
The Red list from Spain got posted today (2nd out of 40). It ended up being non-shift, non-pfire, normal attrition nic fit. His GSZ's are better than everyone elses, but hes coldest to perish.
http://manainfinito.com/2012/coverag...ell-2012-julio
He is running 3 Liliana's MD (as am I with the white version) with no way to break 'symmetry'. I have found that sac a guy, we each discard, sac a guy is more than enough reason to run her. Additionally, with a top in play filtering dead lands and cabals to the top for her feels like breaking symmetry to me. She doesn't have to be some sick engine where we are abusing LFTL and Pfire to value someone out over 6 turns. If she can provide momentum for 3 turns, that is enough.
That Jund Fit does have Red Elemental Blast out of the sideboard which I've been thinking about for sideboard countermagic, although I've been experimenting with Guttural Response instead.
Liliana is only good when you can break her discard symmetry. There aren't many Nic Fit lists that can do that, although I've been trying to make one lately. You have to build the deck around her.
Running Rector doesn't mean you need Moat, she just gives the deck another powerful toolbox and Moat is a good option to go with. She tutors up additional Deeds on demand as well as game-crushing enchantments such as Choke and Humility. There are many games that I would have lost if it wasn't for Rector. In most match ups she will fetch Recurring Nightmare, which will win you the game.
Sigarda, Thragtusk (or Thrun), and two Titans will be enough finishers. Especially if you can recur them with Recurring Nightmare.
I used to run Garruk Relentless, but in the current comboish meta he isn't all that great. He is a good tutor and engine, as well as working well with Master of the Wild Hunt to kill almost any creature, but that's against creature based decks. Primal Hunter will draw you a ton of cards which is always nice. See above for Liliana.
^Except if you can't use her discard because your hand = 1 Grave Titan on turn 3/4 with 5 lands in play, then you lose her discard turn, and if you used her edict then she will probably die next turn anyway to an attack and you spent a turn on a 1BB Diabolic Edict + Fog. She's not the friendliest walker to decks without cards that can freely go into the graveyard and takes up space that can be more flexible.
The recent Rock list that came out of Ghent's Top 8 had 4 Lilianas and it was completely designed around her. Not necessarily grave-based cards (though it did run 4x Lingering Souls), but cards that you don't care if you discard them...such as extra Lilianas, 4x Sensei's Tops, and a plethora of discard.
Given the scenario you outlined to highlight her weakness, I think the same scenario is a reason to play her. The opponent now has less power on the board. She has protected your life total. She allowed you another draw phase to get a land, cast Titan, reach out and shake your opponents hand.
That's a decent point@Conboy about using Top to filter dead draws to the top for Lily fodder. Still, maybe it's just me, but I'd rather be drawing live and winning than drawing dead to accommodate Lily. But yeah, definitely relevant.
I tend to agree with Claymore's stance on Lily.
I think that all Red versions should automatically have 3+ REB/Pyro effects in their board. It's one of the defining reasons to go red, IMO -- it isn't just countermagic, like Guttural -- it's also a 1-mana Destroy Target Jace, which is relevant.
Rector is definitely good beyond Moat, but I personally view Moat as one of the best cards you can get with her...especially with tribal coming back in a big way. It just shits on Goblins and Merfolk by itself.
If you want more finishers, Baneslayer is where you should be.
Relentless is pretty much ass right now. I mean, he's okay, but I think there's better things you can be doing. Master of the Wild Hunt needs to go away if Garruk isn't there -- fighting things with deathtouch wolves is one of the most powerful reasons to run Garruk. He's good vs maverick, though, if you have a lot of that in your area.
The fact that the Jund list is running Deranged Hermit just turns me off so much >_> And Spike Feeder? Seriously? No Thragtusk? It just looks terrible to me ....
Back to Starscream... you pretty much need to decide if you want Rector or not. Like Claymore said, you -can- run it without Moat. It still tutors for Nightmare, Arena, Deeds, Faith's Fetters, sb options, etc. If you don't want Rector, then you probably just go Primeval -> Two Towers to simulate Nightmare. I really like Nightmare personally, and I think that you'll find it with Top when you really need to, but I'm not sure the Rock version wants to be spending the time setting up the Kokusho loop -- it's more midrange, while the Rector build is more control with a combo engine.
Liliana is amazing. You dont always have to plus one. She Edicts and stays alive. Or against Combo/Control you just eat their hand. You have arguably the best Top-Decks in the format so why not make it so you and your opponent is top decking? RUG, goes oh look a 3/3 mongoose off of the top. You go okay, Edict, Here is a Grave Titan? Liliana doesn't need to be abused and do cutesy bad combos. You just need to be able to get board advantage and destroy their hand. Breaking her is fine and all, but does this deck really need the grindy advantage of Lingering Souls? And PFire in my opinion just makes you better vs decks you are already good against.
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
