Would you actually post in a Vintage subforum?

[aahz]

On a completely unrelated note, seeing as this is the defacto Vintage thread until the Vintage forum is established (hopefully),

Thoughts on UB/R Welder-Snap control:
Dark Confidant vs Forbidden Alchemy?
Dark Confidant proved incremental advantage and a decent clock, but is weak against random aggro decks
Forbidden Alchemy digs, removes chaffs off the top, and setups insane Y-Will turns. At the expense of high mana cost. It does make good use of Drain mana in the mid-game, and has built in flash-back.

Admittedly I haven't tried it, but while it sounds good in theory, I worry a bit about the casting cost. I don't think that I'd play it over Bob, but I could see it as 1-2 of. Even though Bob is somewhat fragile, he can provide more card advantage and is good vs. shops, which is a matchup that I suspect Alchemy would be terrible in due to the CMC and not being a creature/artifact. If you are already playing Welders, Baleful Strix is fun. It's card advantage, decent vs. aggro, and can be a house vs. shops. I'm currently trying out ditching snapcasters for welder/strix to see where that leads, but I'll try to test out an Alchemy to see how it plays out since it does appear to have some synergy with Will and welders. Have you done much testing with it? If so, how has it been?

[Koby]

Have you done much testing with it? If so, how has it been?

I've been rocking this list more or less for 3 months now (linky), and it has been working very well. People always give me a weird glance when I cast it, but then I just setup insane Snapcaster/Welder/Will tricks.

[socialite]

On a completely unrelated note, seeing as this is the defacto Vintage thread until the Vintage forum is established (hopefully),

Thoughts on UB/R Welder-Snap control:
Dark Confidant vs Forbidden Alchemy?
Dark Confidant proved incremental advantage and a decent clock, but is weak against random aggro decks
Forbidden Alchemy digs, removes chaffs off the top, and setups insane Y-Will turns. At the expense of high mana cost. It does make good use of Drain mana in the mid-game, and has built in flash-back.

I'll be honest, I'm not a big fan of Steve M's list and I haven't been too impressed with a lot of the lists floating around. In addition the viability and utility of Goblin Welder in the current environment is overrated. If you are playing in a field that primarily consists of Workshops and Fish I could see playing a list like the aforementioned.

That aside taking into consideration your question I have to side with Dark Confidant simply because of the innocuous utility he provides. The format isn’t very receptive to large all in Yawgmoth’s Will turns, recent printings with things like Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, and Grafdigger’s Cage underscore the issues with total reliance on Will. In addition you are bound to run into splash hate from Dredge if your list is reliant on both Goblin Welder and Forbidden Alchemy. With Dark Confidant you avoid a majority of these issues.

To briefly highlight the redeeming qualities of Dark Confidant:

Permanent based, relevant in the Workshop and Fish matches.
Free card advantage translating into long term tempo gains.
Win condition.

It's also worth noting the utility versus deck space saved you get from running Confidant over a mix of utility spells against Workshops/Fish in addition to the burst card advantage spells.

Seems much better to me.

[Arianrhod]

At the point at which you are considering Forbidden Alchemy, why not Fact or Fiction?

[Koby]

At the point at which you are considering Forbidden Alchemy, why not Fact or Fiction?

The one mana cheaper is nicer against blue making it less enticing as a Drain target and easier to cast earlier. This was the factor in game-play that I decided FoF was too expensive. Gifts is still nutter butters, but FoF was too slow and provided too much variance for my liking.

[socialite]

At the 4CC slot you get Jace/Gifts and EOT FoF does not end the game like it used to. There are just far superior cards for that slot and there's something to be said about tempo losses with such an expensive engine.

[xfxf]

I'm loving this preview :)

[bfeingersh]

I really want the vintage forum to open since our local discussions have mainly consisted of yelling at our village idiot for being an idiot, and worshipping the almighty Lava Dart.

[socialite]

I really want the vintage forum to open since our local discussions have mainly consisted of yelling at our village idiot for being an idiot, and worshipping the almighty Lava Dart.

Lava Dart is no joke.

[Koby]

Lava Dart is no joke.

Oh boy, here we go again. It's like it's 2007 all over again!

[aahz]

I've been rocking this list more or less for 3 months now (linky), and it has been working very well. People always give me a weird glance when I cast it, but then I just setup insane Snapcaster/Welder/Will tricks.

Interesting list. I usually play UBr also but rocking the wizard angle instead (Bob+Snappy+Clique). Bob is super solid almost all the time, though I bounce back and forth between 3 and 4 copies since, like welders, they are sometimes really bad in multiples.

Do you ever feel like you are short on permission? I played a few games last night with your same counter configuration (4xFoW, 2xDrain, 2xMisstep, 1xFlusterstorm), but it seemed like it just isn't enough without at least a Thoughtseize/Duress, especially since you don't have Merchant Scroll or Mystical to find a counter in a pinch.

Also, how has the Helm in the side been treating you? I used to do that, but it started seeming too cute to be taking up a sideboard slot. Does having the welders make it that much better than a space for something else?

Oh boy, here we go again. It's like it's 2007 all over again!

I wasn't paying attention from 2003-2010, so I can't tell if that's good or bad.

[socialite]

Oh man let me tell you about Lava Dart. I run a UBr Drain Tendrils list and I run Lava Dart for a few reasons...

R = 3 Storm
Aven Mindcensor
Dark Confidant
Delver of Secrets
Goblin Welder
Lotus Cobra
Noble Hierarch
Phyrexian Revoker
Snapcaster Mage
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Vendilion Clique
Xantid Swarm

That's not even counting all the stupid jank you could run into out there like Cold-Eyed Selkie, Goblin Lackey, Gorilla Shaman, Grim Lavamancer, all the Elves, Hermit Druid, etc...

There's an astronomical number of relevant X/2s as well.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yes I would. I think you would get a lot of the ManaDrain crowd as well.

[Phoenix Ignition]

No interest at all, but scrolling down an extra ~3 threads to see things I am interested in isn't hard at all.

I'm one of the few people who likes Modern, and I'm sure there are a few who like Vintage. Why not put it on the forum?

But honestly, I'd be more interested in Standard, as I could find a tournament for that if I ever wanted to play it.

[Klazam]

I'd want this so much. Vintage has always looked incredibly interesting to me, but i have not started playing because of the lack of resources. There's so little on the internet, and most of it is outdated.

(Are there any vintage groups in the DC-MD-VA area?)

[xfxf]

Obviously a "Playgroups in Your Area" thread is much needed for Vintage.

[mmcgeach]

Dark Confidant vs Forbidden Alchemy?
Dark Confidant proved incremental advantage and a decent clock, but is weak against random aggro decks
Forbidden Alchemy digs, removes chaffs off the top, and setups insane Y-Will turns.

I'd post in a vintage subforum!

Also in response to the above quote... Dark Confidant is usually *good* vs. random aggro since it trades with one of their dudes. Also I dunno how much you have to be worried about "random aggro" in a real vintage tournament. I mean, you probably do have to worry about specific fish decks like Noble Fish or RUG Delver, and sometimes workshop aggro, but actual tuned vintage lists tend to be pretty good against random stuff people throw together.

Consider Forbidden Alchemy is clearly inferior to Thirst for Knowledge. TfK is restricted, but even still, many decks don't run it cause it's too expensive for what it does. Three mana is pretty expensive for a card that cycles and has no ability to provide card advantage. Although there is some precedent in combo decks for cards that just provide digging for combo-pieces: impulse in Oath decks, for example. But the combo has to be strong enough that digging for it is worth the mana+card investment. A deck like Two-Card Monte https://sales.starcitygames.com/deck...p?DeckID=31265 or Steel City Vault http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckd...p?DeckID=29762 might actually want something like forbidden alchemy. But forbidden alchemy shouldn't be considered in place of a card draw engine like Dark Confidant.

... so, bring on the Vintage subforum?

[Solaran_X]

Also in response to the above quote... Dark Confidant is usually *good* vs. random aggro since it trades with one of their dudes. Also I dunno how much you have to be worried about "random aggro" in a real vintage tournament. I mean, you probably do have to worry about specific fish decks like Noble Fish or RUG Delver, and sometimes workshop aggro, but actual tuned vintage lists tend to be pretty good against random stuff people throw together.

The problem is that there are quite a few "tuned" Vintage Aggro lists that require only minimum Power (typically a Lotus and on-color Mox[en]). Some of them look quite fun, like the mono-white one and the Vintage-Edition of Deadguy Ale.

[Koby]

Vintage forum needs to come sooner, so I can brag about how awesome my deck is. Split in finals of a 13 man, losing only 4 games, each in different matches.

[Amon Amarth]

Maybe it's just me but why is there no actual good forums to discuss any of the other formats like Limited? Isn't that just weird?