[Deck] Goblins

[GoboLord]

@ jrw's scenario:
I would have played exactly as Jon did. Not wasting was a good move. However, his opponent was a little too quick with using 3 cards (Rite, Rite, BW) on 2 creatures (Skirk, Piley). That move pretty much cost him the game. TES is terrible at setting up a combo out of no resources.

@woodjt5:
I figured out that Tuktuk is actually a terrible card against Stoneblade. The only card you will really blow up is Jitte, of which they usually only have 1 copy. So my advice would be to run only 1 Tuktuk in your SB and add a 2nd Pithing Needle. Pithing Needle disrupts their Stoneforge --> Equipment setup at any game state, whereas Tuktuk sometimes just can't hit Batterskull and/or you need to let your opponent ot get his equipment online before TUktuk is able to target it.
//EDIT: I
m very interested in how Goblin Chieftain performs in this MU. Could you lay an eye on his performance and write some words about it after the next SCG?

[mrblueduck]

I figured out that Tuktuk is actually a terrible card against Stoneblade. The only card you will really blow up is Jitte, of which they usually only have 1 copy. So my advice would be to run only 1 Tuktuk in your SB and add a 2nd Pithing Needle. Pithing Needle disrupts their Stoneforge --> Equipment setup at any game state, whereas Tuktuk sometimes just can't hit Batterskull and/or you need to let your opponent ot get his equipment online before TUktuk is able to target it.
//EDIT: I
m very interested in how Goblin Chieftain performs in this MU. Could you lay an eye on his performance and write some words about it after the next SCG?

I am not so sure about that, Tuktuk is pretty important to beating Stoneblade. If you make it as simple as possible.

When stoneblade has Jitte out, you are a big underdog
When Jitte is in the gy you are a favorite.

Stoneblades two best weapons against goblins both artifacts (Jitte and batterskull), and tuktuk is a very reasonable answer to both. Also the deck often has a sb Jitte or other equipment. Don't use the, they only have one, so often is it relevenant arguenment. They always get an equipment out. They have the best deck manipulation, plus four tutors for it.... so it is very likely they get to it. So is Tuktuk terrible? No. Maybe not the best answer, but a very serviceable one and situationaly very good

[woodjt5]

Yeah, I plan on having 3 pieces of my SB be for Stoneblade, with a 2-1 split between needle and Tuktuk....just haven't decided which of the two deserves the extra spot. Sharpshooter is also good if they are on lingering souls.

@ Gobolord

Thanks for the input. I have yet to find a situation in which Chieftan is bad, but I will pay special attention to him in stone blade matches next weekend (and in my testing leading up to the event).

[mrblueduck]

m very interested in how Goblin Chieftain performs in this MU. Could you lay an eye on his performance and write some words about it after the next SCG?

I forgot to mention this. In any deck that runs Stoneforge, I believe Chieftain outperforms Warchief by a pretty big margin. SFM is the main reason I dropped Warchiefs entirely, and a big reason I was able to top 8 a SCG event. Forcing a SFM to chump block an early 2/2 Lackey or WI is pretty devastating, something that never occurs when playing the Warchief version.

[LPEuler]

I forgot to mention this. In any deck that runs Stoneforge, I believe Chieftain outperforms Warchief by a pretty big margin. SFM is the main reason I dropped Warchiefs entirely, and a big reason I was able to top 8 a SCG event. Forcing a SFM to chump block an early 2/2 Lackey or WI is pretty devastating, something that never occurs when playing the Warchief version.

Could you post your list, please?
I think warchief is always a must and I wouldn't drop them. It gives so much speed to the deck. Also many haste lords are very useful for aggroing and Krenko.
I would also know your opinion on the performance of the WI. I used to play them but dropped them because I didn't like them that much.

[Chatto]

I have a question:

Since Goblins have a problem with Jitte, why not play Jitte ourself? I mean we have sufficient creatures to equip with, it's a way to get rid of an opponent's Jitte and it makes our 1/1 Goblins also a real threat (being equiped with Jitte). Also, we can gain life, pump a attacking or blocking Goblin or shrink an opponent's attacking creature. One last point to mention is that you now have one less artifact to worry about.

I know this is opted in the past, but I thought maybe it's time to renew this idea. I myself was thinking of packing two, just for testing.

[mrblueduck]

Could you post your list, please?
I think warchief is always a must and I wouldn't drop them. It gives so much speed to the deck. Also many haste lords are very useful for aggroing and Krenko.
I would also know your opinion on the performance of the WI. I used to play them but dropped them because I didn't like them that much.

Yea sure, here is the list.. Warchief-less goblins
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=44897

Its a tad out of date, so my current mb list from the above link:
-1 Piledriver (Only 1 total now, and out of necessity. If i cut Kiki, I would probably cut this entirely)
-1 Tuktuk Scrapper ( Maverick isn't everywhere, so one in the mb is fine)
-1 SGC ( 3 5 Drops is fine, but 2 seems better)
-3 Mountains

+4 Caverns
+1 MWM (Better then Piledriver)
+1 Krenko (Testing it out, pretty meh so far)

I believe Warchief is not as good as Chieftain, but what do I know.... However with Chieftain, WI is very very good. I keep saying it, but Piledriver really doesn't seem that great to me. I didn't like him much with warchiefs, and is very much outclassed by Instigator in a Chieftain build. To beat combo/storm Piledriver is only a little bit faster then WI, and that's if you draw the best hand. Wi also allows decks to mulligan less.

Look at these two hands after a mull to 6 on the play
3x Mountains, Vial, WI, Matron
3x Mountains, Vial , PD, Matron

In my opinion one is a very good hand. One really is meh or average. And as you go lower and lower, he helps out a lot.

1x Mountains, Vial, WI, Matron
1x Mountains, Vial , PD, Matron

The WI hand is a phenomial four, while the PD Hand is a keep only because of Matron into Ringleader, and PD will pretty much suck ass all game. In high level tournaments I tend to mulligan a little more than once per GAME (not match) so little things like this really help.

[Marshal]

@woodjt5:
I figured out that Tuktuk is actually a terrible card against Stoneblade. The only card you will really blow up is Jitte, of which they usually only have 1 copy. So my advice would be to run only 1 Tuktuk in your SB and add a 2nd Pithing Needle. Pithing Needle disrupts their Stoneforge --> Equipment setup at any game state, whereas Tuktuk sometimes just can't hit Batterskull and/or you need to let your opponent ot get his equipment online before TUktuk is able to target it.

I'm curious why not play Phyrexian Revoker instead of the Pithing Needles he can attack and can be viald in?

[ScatmanX]

I'm curious why not play Phyrexian Revoker instead of the Pithing Needles he can attack and can be viald in?

And get StP/PtE's, and even bounced by jace. Really. Revoker is no good against Stoneblade.

[L10]

Revoker dies to Zealous Persecution, Dark Blast, Grim Lavamancer, and any other spot and mass removal. All of which are common SB cards against goblins. It is not a real solution to kill Jitte or Batterskull, only a temporary stall. I normally like a combination of two Pithing Needles and two Tuktuk/Tinkerer against Stone Blade type decks.

As for combating Batterskull, there are usually several routes.
1. I would first use all my ports on my opponents upkeep or end phase. Then on my upkeep, I use all my ports again. Hopefully, by now, my opponent would only have two lands open. Then on my main phase, I would then bring out Tuktuk through Vial or Cavern of Souls.
2. Pithing Needle -> Tuktuk
3. See my opponent only has two lands open -> Tuktuk
Sometimes the opponent would only have two lands open. Usually right after they cast Jace. Or if you kill Stoneforge, they have to hardcast Batterskull, which is expensive.

[BigBopper]

I have a question:

Since Goblins have a problem with Jitte, why not play Jitte ourself? I mean we have sufficient creatures to equip with, it's a way to get rid of an opponent's Jitte and it makes our 1/1 Goblins also a real threat (being equiped with Jitte). Also, we can gain life, pump a attacking or blocking Goblin or shrink an opponent's attacking creature. One last point to mention is that you now have one less artifact to worry about.

I know this is opted in the past, but I thought maybe it's time to renew this idea. I myself was thinking of packing two, just for testing.

I had a similar idea a few weeks ago and tested it. Problems are that you can't tutor for it and most of your card draw effects won't work since it's not a goblin for that reason you have to play several copies of a legendary card that randomly comes into your hand. Also paying 2 cc and 2 for equipping is quite a lot if you imagine what goblins you can play for that mana. Sure Merfolk plays it all the time even as a 3-off but they have no other removal than that and counters. We got tons (most lists have 5-9 pieces MD). So my 2 slots where I tested jitte are now filled with Mogg fanatic since it also handles jitte for a turn or even more if you blow up that Snapcaster mage they`re gonna equip it with and Fanatic is a goblin and has all the tribal synergies...

Also on tutoring up Prospector with Matron: I'd do it in every dredge game or if my opponent is about to play Jitte/Batterscull.

[Marshal]

And get StP/PtE's, and even bounced by jace. Really. Revoker is no good against Stoneblade.

Yeah I know, but it looks like such an elegant solution if you are going that rout and it fits with the game plan - disrupt while making a board presence. I'm trying a few out, they look so versatile vs decks where we have a ton of dead cards. They are not ideal vs Sneak and show or Tendrils decks but are still useful to buy time shuting down sneaks, petals, LEDs...

[jrw1985]

All right, kiddos. Your uncle Jonny had a couple drinks tonight and got a little crazy, and this old Econ major decided to run some stats. Cuz I'm hardcore like a motherfucker. What stats did I run, you ask? I decided to find out, statistically, what the perfect Goblin deck is. Clearly this begs the question, "How does one decide how to measure the perfect Goblin deck?" Fair enough. Well pull up a stool and stay a while, and I'll tell you all about a little thing called Collective Intelligence, or the Wisdom of Crowds. The basic premise of Collective Intelligence is that a Group of People will make a better, more correct decision than those group member would individually. So while you or I might have some good ideas about what kind of goblin deck to play, when we combine our thoughts and ideas we can make something greater than either of us could on our own (Gobbo Lord's "Exchanging Apples" sig is an illustration of this).

Now clearly Collective Intelligence isn't going to work if your sample group is a group of dummies. So you need to make sure you're sampling a group of people worth sampling. For our purposes I sampled decklists. Fortunately, there are plenty of decklists available online to choose from. I specifically looked at the decklists posted on StarCityGames that placed well in tournaments. SCG posts their decklists and decklists of the 2 most recent GPs and Invitational Qualifiers. The decks I surveyed placed in the top 30 of SCG 5Ks, SCG Invitational Qualifiers and GPs over the past 3 months (since the start of May).

I built a spreadsheet listing every MD and SB card of 11 Goblin decks that placed since May, as well as Brett Parise's deck that made top-4 in March (just cuz he's a Sourcer and did well, even though his top-4 was a little too long ago). Then I averaged out the number of each card per decklist. Then I rounded the averages to integers. It came pretty close to being a full 75 (there were 70 cards that could be accounted for through the averaging process), so then I just played with the numbers a bit until I came up with another 5 that made sense. For instance, Krenko has quickly become a staple of Goblins decks, but since he's only been available to play since July he was underrepresented in the spreadsheet (.4 Krenko per average successful list). So I rounded up on his number anyway to make him included in the "Best Goblin List".

The "Best" Goblin List!

Maindeck
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
1 Mogg Fanatic
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Mogg War Marshal
1 Stingscourger
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
*1 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Warchief
1 Goblin Chieftain
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Goblin Ringleader
*1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Pyrokinesis

8 Mountain
3 Wasteland
5 Fetch
1 Rishadan Port
1 Dual
3 Cavern of Souls

Sideboard
1 Chalice of the Void
2 Relic of Progenitus
**1 Faerie Macabre
2 Pyrokinesis
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Surgical Extraction
*1 Shattering Spree
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Thorn or Amethyst
**1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Gilded Drake
1 Tormod's Crypt

*Cards with less than .5 cards per decklist but more than .4 cards per decklist. They were the obvious first choice to include in the 5 slots that where not filled after averaging and rounding.
**Cards with .333 cards per decklist. There were multiple cards that had .333 cards per decklist that didn't make the cut because they represented decklists that played a full playset of a card that no other decklist played. Leyline of the Void was one such card, as was Goblin Guide and Price of Progress. The cards with .333 cards per decklist which were included in the "Best" list were included because they appeared in multiple lists, not just as a 4-of in one list.

If you read closely you'll see that this Best list is Rwu. However, crunching the numbers only produced 1 dual land for the deck. In an actual build I would remedy this by just playing 1 less Mountain and 1 more dual (one Plateau and one Volcanic Island).

So what do you all think? Does this look like that Best Goblin deck of the current meta, or a Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None?

[Amon Amarth]

Why would you want to throw together a bunch of decks that were constructed in different metas? When you average them out you get weird shit like... 1 Thalia and 3 Waste and 1 Port. Ew. Your sample size was too small. Goblins has just returned as "a deck" in the public eye. Often, people just copy what works and not playtest, for better or worse. I like the work you've done but the results don't make a bit of sense. Since the printing of Krenko, the core of the deck has only gotten more solidified, not less. I don't think the optimal list exists for every metagame and I don't think it looks like that.

[danyul]

I wouldnt look at it as a strict example of "this is the best composite decklist" as much as I'd look at it as a guide to all the older versions of Goblins and what they were trying to achieve.

The weird numbers that the averages produces kinda clues you into what goals the individual deck designers were going for. For example, the low count of WInstigator might show that not very many people were relying on that card whereas the 3/1 split of Goblin Warchief to Goblin Chieftain shows that, for the given sample size, that was something close to the preferred split.

If you view this little list as an example of how the different goblin decks have evolved or whatnot, then it is at least interesting if not a little bit informative. And for us goblin noobs who are just bandwagoning and are starting to build the deck now, it at least gives us an idea of what kind of cards to be hunting if we want to be able to build more than one version of Goblins.

[GoboLord]

So what do you all think? Does this look like that Best Goblin deck of the current meta, or a Jack-of-All-Trades, Master-of-None?

Because I'm a empiricist from the heart, I need to test your list in real life before I can make judgment. I have many theoretical concerns, but I really like the approach.

[woodjt5]

Anyone have Goblins built on MTGO?

I have it on good authority that the 10:30 pst event is going to fire today (Sunday), so please come play and ensure that it does.

Unfortunately I don't have Goblins built on Modo, so if you do and you don't want to play, you could always loan me your deck to get some testing in for SCG DC . If not, I'll be there paying affinity and wishing I was slinging Goblins. But hey, any Legacy is good Legacy.

Seriously, come play.

[Achamian]

Right now I want to include 3 Thalia into my mainboard, to better fight TES (lost in today's final against it :( ), Sneakshow, Reanimate, Belcher and other combo decks.

I'm just not sure whether 21 lands are enough to support a splash AND Rishadan Port.

Currently I'm playing this list:

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matrone
4 Ringleader
4 Vial
3 Chieftain
3 Piledriver
2 Krenko
1 Stingscourger
3 Incinerator
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

11 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Port
4 Cavern of Souls

I think of cutting 1 Pyrokinesis, 1 Piledriver and maybe 1 Tinkerer for 3 Thalias and 6 Mountains for 4 fetch lands and 2 Plateaus (14 possibilities to cast Thalia, then, inculding Vial and Cavern of Souls).

Do you guys think I need to cut Ports if I want to play the splash? Or which changes would you recommend?

[LPEuler]

Right now I want to include 3 Thalia into my mainboard, to better fight TES (lost in today's final against it :( ), Sneakshow, Reanimate, Belcher and other combo decks.

I'm just not sure whether 21 lands are enough to support a splash AND Rishadan Port.

Currently I'm playing this list:

4 Lackey
4 Warchief
4 Matrone
4 Ringleader
4 Vial
3 Chieftain
3 Piledriver
2 Krenko
1 Stingscourger
3 Incinerator
1 Goblin Tinkerer
4 Tarfire
1 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

11 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Port
4 Cavern of Souls

I think of cutting 1 Pyrokinesis, 1 Piledriver and maybe 1 Tinkerer for 3 Thalias and 6 Mountains for 4 fetch lands and 2 Plateaus (14 possibilities to cast Thalia, then, inculding Vial and Cavern of Souls).

Do you guys think I need to cut Ports if I want to play the splash? Or which changes would you recommend?

I would cut the Ports with the splash because I think the RR cost of your 7 lords can hurt you a lot. I would put mountains instead.

I wouldn't cut the Piledriver nor the Tinkerer because piledrivers are very nice and can win you rounds (specially with Krenko on the board) and having 1 main-deck artifact killer is good. At worst it can hit for 1 or 2, help piledriver or put more tokens. Maybe I would cut 2 tarfires, so you have still 6 removal (although I have 5 and I am thinking to upper the number).

[LPEuler]

Hello all,

I have been testing more my list, specially against Stoneblade (a WB variant with discard, confidants and other nasty stuff) as well as some matches against some different decks (another Stoneblade, Maverick, monoB, artifacts...) and I have some questions I want to share to see if we can agree on things or if someone can enlighten me up.
This is my actual list:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post661086

My main concern is the MWM. Everyobody seems running them, even in great number and I have even been adviced (thanks L10) to increase the number but so far I haven't seen them being great. Yeah, you can make bigger Krenko (yet when you do 4 or 6 tokens it doesn't matter THAT much because next turn you will have 12 (or 18) which is already overkill), sometimes they chump-block or hit a little but that's all. I don't know if it is too obvious that I haven't seen their advantadge or that I had no luck on finding them useful or that I don't know how to play them well...
Instead, with my 5 removals (3 Gempalm + 2 Sting) I find that these 2 spots could be used for removal, specially removing that T2 Stoneforger or other critters that are not onyl dangerous but can block (or chump-block) my Lackey. That way I would be able to connect more and drop more threats hastily. Instead of the MWM I would find very useful adding a 4th Gempalm, another Stingscourger, 2 Tarfires or even Lighting for that purpose.
What do you think? What does your experience thinks?



My second part of this message is to ask your advice against the 2 most often MUs on my meta as I will go to an important tournament this weekend, that is, Stoneforger and Maverick. I would like to know how do you usually deal with their big threats, what is your strategy (if you mull even good hands because they are not enough aggresive, for instance, or what do you usually matron), what do you usually side and how do you use it. I know that is many questions but it would help me a lot (I promise to do a report after the tournament ).

In this sense, I have been adviced by a good player on my shop that against Maverick (At least) one could think about using Cursed Totem
http://magiccards.info/6e/en/278.html
It affects Krenko (totally) and SGC (partially, it still fills the board) but he has told me it can disrupt their deck heavily (Birds, Knight, Mother, Hierarch, Stoneforge...).
What do you think?